For those that do military models, are there certain countries you won't do out of principle?

I don't have any problem building any sort of model, I've always been interested in the engineering and the machines themselves.

My grand father was Polish army, he saw both sides, German and Russian.

As for the swastika, I see both sides of that as well....my grand father's side and my wife's side (she's Indian).

But when it comes down to it we are here enjoying a hobby that we all have an interest in, so if I manage to find the time with work, I'll build pretty much anything.

FocusOne

What about insignia?  Anyone have issues with putting a swastika on their models?

I had painted one on my Tamiya 1/350 Bismarck and was quite proud of the overall look of the ship.  It wasn't a problem until I took it out to a pond for a drive (it's an RC converted boat) and someone pointed it out.  I didn't get into any trouble for it but it'd made me quite conscious of it.

Again no qualms at all with insignia,if somebody asked,I would just say it was a Nazi ship,and that is the way it looked,same if it was any nationality.

But you know,I would feel funny if I had to explain myself to a Concentration Camp survivor or relative about my Nazi ship or vehicle,but I wouldn't change my views about modeling one.It's history

If its part of the model then I don't have a problem with having the insignia on it.

One day I plan to do a General Lee from Dukes of Hazzard, but you can't have that without the flag on the roof.

It doesn't mean I follow and ideologies either from the 1800's or now, it means I like building accurate(ish) plastic models.

I really like doog's point, its not an endorsement.

That is a silly idea, just like EBay's policy of selling let's say a Bf109 done to scale right down to the unit markings which includes the swas. All bells and whistles go off and the Ebay police fast response team arrives on the scene to quickly pull the listing off.   Their reason is that they do not advertise items that promote hate yet you can list and sell Che Guevara T shirts without a problem! .

another point I would like to make if I may, is that the swatstik predates Hitler or any of those people!!!!!  From the little reasearch I've done the Hindus? were the first people to use it!!!! I also have seen pictures of it on American Indians teepees taken by Matthew Brady, during the American Cival War look it up if you dont beleive me. All Hitler and/or his people did was turn it to the left on its side. Just thought I'd point this out Thanks

Trouble is nowadays everybody is soo frickin' poitically correct. Folks nowadays are getting too sensitive and forgetting it's WW2 history and the Luftwaffe.

Before I had an airbrush, I didn't do German WW2 fighters/bombers because of their complex camo markings. Now that I have one, I'm ready to take the challenge to do a Bf 109 I have in my stash.

For me, modeling has always been about an interest in the machines, the men who drive them, and the  historical context in which they were placed.

I have a very close friend whose wife comes from a very strict religious family. She's very naive and was sheltered, so much so that she lacks many of the skills necessary to live on a daily basis such as paying bills, getting a driver's license, etc. Fully mentally capable though, so it's not like a disability, per se. I offered to teach her how to shoot last summer, so the three of us went out to the woods after half a day of "gun school" in my office. When it came time for her to shoot, she couldn't do it. She shuddered and walked back to the truck. That's ok. I knew going in it might happen, and guns aren't for everyone. The emotional connection was interesting to see though.

I use the above to illustrate how some people tend to connect the human condition much more closely to the equipment involved. Although I myself would never limit myself by shutting out any particular country's equipment, I can respect that many gents who hold an immediacy to those times by having been there may choose to. When you think about it, each of us has lived a very different life from one another, and we're all entitled to play this game of life as we see fit.

Anyway, just my .02.

Okay, who's the good guy and who's the bad guy?

To Texans, the Mexicans were the bad guys at the Alamo. To the Santa Ana , the Texicans defying the law with their insistence on bringing slavery to town.

To most Americans, the English were the bad guys during our revolution , but King George saw the colonials as rebels and traitors to the crown.

At the Little Big Horn, most of us were taught that Custer was the good guy fighting the willful and recalcitrant Indians. To Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, Long Hair Custer was a murderer representing a people stealing their ancestral lands and destroying their way of life.

Through most European history from the middle ages on, the bad guy was bad only until his child was marriage fodder for an alliance beneficial to both sides.

We have come to despise the idea of a sneak attack. But really, aren't all military attacks secret until launched? Imagine this phone call: "Herr H, General Ike is on the phone. He'd like you to know his forces will be landing in Normandy starting about about dawn of 6 June...weather permitting, of course. Gen. Monty will be there as well and they said they didn't want to surprise you."

I think to most WW 2 Vets in ref. to Pearl Harbor they despise the idea of an un-provoked attack.

ajlafleche

Okay, who's the good guy and who's the bad guy?

To Texans, the Mexicans were the bad guys at the Alamo. To the Santa Ana , the Texicans defying the law with their insistence on bringing slavery to town.

To most Americans, the English were the bad guys during our revolution , but King George saw the colonials as rebels and traitors to the crown.

At the Little Big Horn, most of us were taught that Custer was the good guy fighting the willful and recalcitrant Indians. To Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, Long Hair Custer was a murderer representing a people stealing their ancestral lands and destroying their way of life.

Through most European history from the middle ages on, the bad guy was bad only until his child was marriage fodder for an alliance beneficial to both sides.

We have come to despise the idea of a sneak attack. But really, aren't all military attacks secret until launched? Imagine this phone call: "Herr H, General Ike is on the phone. He'd like you to know his forces will be landing in Normandy starting about about dawn of 6 June...weather permitting, of course. Gen. Monty will be there as well and they said they didn't want to surprise you."

I get your two examples of good guys,and bad guys,but the SS Troops or Japanese Troops that performed massacres and atrocities were bad guys,there is no away around that.Just sayin

With respect to the sanitization of modeling subjects in order not to offend, if we forget history, we are doomed to repeat it.  It may not always be pretty but a well known historical figure once said, "The truth shall set you free."

Nathan T

I think to most WW 2 Vets in ref. to Pearl Harbor they despise the idea of an un-provoked attack.

However, to the Japanese, it was not unprovoked. They saw America encroaching on their sphere of influence. The British, Dutch and Americans established oil and steel embargo in 1941, The presence of the AVG in China also somewhat negated US neutrality. 

As to atrocities such as the rape of Nanking and the death camps, there is no moral justification. The perpetrators, had, however, been indoctrinated to believes their victims were less than human and that they were acting towards a greater goo. That said, by all rational and objective measures, those actions cannot be justified. 

There is a difference between forgetting history-which I do not, and not modeling equipment from certain units. I dont't want them in my collection. I am well aware of their war records and such. But is a choice I have made. I have no problem building the same kit and modeling it from a different unit with a more honorable record. Both may have fought under the same flag, but one did so without staining their honor as soldiers. It may seem silly to some. But it is what it is to me. One can be a bad guy and have honor.

Well, the Russians were not far behind with their atrocities. Stalin wacked a few million of his own people yet we seldom hear about it. just as an example:

articles.chicagotribune.com/.../9707250034_1_thousands-of-polish-officers-battlefields-penal-camps

There's one country from one war that I really would rather not build. Not to say I haven't or don't but it's a problem for me unless the subject really interests me. But it's my own decision and I don't like to embarrass others or make them uncomfortable with my own opinions. That being said, I WILL take a stand against statements that they somehow were no worse than anyone else, they were heroes etc.

Evil is evil no matter what, but that's for politics, not modeling.

Certainly it is good to exercise sensitivity when people view your models as you never know their personal stories.

GMorrison

 That being said, I WILL take a stand against statements that they somehow were no worse than anyone else, they were heroes etc.

Evil is evil no matter what, but that's for politics, not modeling.

To me, that's the thing that sucks the most about war. There are no real "good guys" or "bad guys". EVERYBODY is fighting to survice, fighting to protect their own hide, their own self-interests, their own budies and wanting to be the ones to get home alive. When that's the stakes, men become animals when times turn desperate. I don't think you can judge until you're in that soldier's shoes. There are indeed dishonorable notions or ideologies that drive the collective army, but you can read anecdotes of some of the worlds' most allegedly "evil" men, and find that they were genuinely caring, sympathetic people in other situations and settings. And if they weren't, or when they were exceedingly cruel, THAT can very often be more than likely clinical psychopathy. That very often makes "moral" reasoning biologically impossible. Ironically, sometimes genuine psychopaths are the most sucessful leaders or business owners, politicians, etc, because they lack empathy and ruthlesly pursue a goal to the exclusion of compassion. I think that to approach it from the personal viewpoint of one's own moral constitution is to miss that the subject of "good vs evil" in wartime is complex to paint with such a wide brush, in my opinion.

Like I say, it's personal and it's not absolute.

I did build a german aircraft recently; the JU-52 in the 1936 Olympic livery. I figured if you're in for a dime, in for a dollar, right? Great big piece of Nazi propaganda, no other reason for existence.

And I am "evolving" on the subject.

stikpusher, did that include Canada back in 2003?

I think I either goofed or my post was removed .

  I used to NOT build anything that had the Swastika on it .Now after finding out some personal things some years back it's a challenge even more . I will still build a darned good ( to me anyway ) Bismark , Swastikas and all .Why , Number one ,I don't think anyone can find fault with the ship's looks .Even though a warship , she's just plain beautiful to an engineers eyes . And think to BIKINI . look how much damage the PRINZ EUGEN took before turning turtle and going down .That ship was beautiful as warships go to and well built to boot !

   Then you have the Armor . Germany had such a plethora of fighting vehicles ( softskinned and heavy ) that they are fascinating to build .This goes for any country's war machines .Look at the popularity of the B F - 109 or the F W -190 -D . so I will build what appeals to me , personal history notwithstanding .

   I see the Bismark , Tirpitz and other ships of the Axis forces and I like what I see design wise .Now that said ,I didn't like the IOWA class ships for years until I built two .One for a company that presented it to the ship's namesake museum and a 1/350 version for myself . I have both the ARIZONA and others in 1/200 .When I can afford to I will buy the 1945 fit U.S.S. MISSOURI . Why , Well , I have tread on her decks and stood where history was made .

     I have never gotten to build a really nice model of her .  I won't buy the REVELL model because it's an overworked , badly done version of the pinnacle of our Battleship design . Funny how The firm of TAMIYA got it right ( well mostly so ) but an American company never did  .  Now that said  , Do I harbor unpleasant memories of JAPAN or the REICH ? Where models are concerned NO . I want accurate markings and I want the model to represent the SHIP not the ideology . I got thrown out of a contest because my model had Swastikas on the decks .I think that's nuts !

     When we ( those of us that do) build model cars and trucks ,do we NOT build Chevies because we have always had Fords in our family .No ! We build the cars we think are cool , no matter which company they came from ! Thats should apply to military models too .        Tanker - Builder

My other main hobby is numismatics, and this question often comes up in those forums as well.  Some people absolutely refuse to own a coin that has a swastika on it.  I can understand their aversion to certain countries, or at least certain time periods in those country's histories. 

But, as some have mentioned already, depending on your point of view you could brand almost every country in history as the "bad guy".  For instance; there are some Native Americans who refuse to use the US $20 bill because it has Andrew Jackson's portrait on it.

Again, I understand why some people feel that way.  But  I think you have to be very careful that you don't try and "white-wash" history by refusing to acknowledge the "bad guys".  I'm not saying that's what anyone is consciously doing.  But if the majority of people, for their own reasons, are too uncomfortable acknowledging a certain historical fact, we run the risk of that horror being forgotten.  And the lessons we learned about dealing with it, or hopefully preventing it from happening again, are forgotten along with it.

Heck I often times don't have time to build aircraft of other nations let alone ours but I have in the past and it was never an issue for me, I love aviation history but grudges for some that were in the war do run deep as I learn back around 1991 when the wife and I attended a private dinner with a group of American WW-II Pacific aces and the Japanese ace Saburo Sakai was there too. When our host offered up a toast to Sakai and the guests rose and raised our glasses one American pilot refused to saying having fought the Japanese he be damn if he's ever going to toast one and I'm being polite here.

Scott

I generally don't care. I avoid swastikas but mainly not to offend visitors. I make mirror swastikas (reverse of the nazi swastika) but that's about it. As a kid I had a real problem with my mother. My Bf-109 ended up in crude hand painted Swiss markings, after I found a picture of one at the library.

My poor Mig-21 ended up in aluminum with neatly printed United States Air Force printed on one side like a picture of a captured one I found at the library.  

This topic reared it's head again yesterday.  I popped into a Hobby Lobby to get some sandpaper and saw the new Revell Zero kit on the shelf and picked it up to take a look at the detail info on the box.  This older gentleman looking at the car models walked by and commented 'that's a Jap plane, you don't want to waste your time with that, they were big backstabbers' .  

So obviously these feelings are alive and well.

Spitfire

This topic reared it's head again yesterday.  I popped into a Hobby Lobby to get some sandpaper and saw the new Revell Zero kit on the shelf and picked it up to take a look at the detail info on the box.  This older gentleman looking at the car models walked by and commented 'that's a Jap plane, you don't want to waste your time with that, they were big backstabbers' .  

So obviously these feelings are alive and well.

I wonder if he has or uses any Japanese products in his life ?

Tojo is right.. Spitfire, next time you see this gentleman or any person who has hard feelings for Japan, tell him look around his home or the car he drives. Most things are either Made in Japan or China. Even car parts were made in Japan. Geez... some folks just can't let go.

And the people who started WW2 are long gone. I wonder if he's still mad at the Babylonians for invading Jerusalem?

My friend Neil's dad served in the Pacific. Wouldn't think of buying anything Japanese.

My father in law served in the ETO. Wouldn't let me park my BMW in the driveway but had a wall full of Sony equipment. Personal stories.

Good one, modelcrazy.