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Political Correctness in Modeling

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  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:16 PM

I would not call my own view towards the SS as PC, but I do not care for most SS subjects. The 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions being the exception (as far as I know from my limited knowledge of those two units). In my personal view as a vet, most SS divisions sacrificed their honor as soldiers with the war crimes they committed. And the Waffen SS did so as a matter of policy, not exception. I'm not talking the Einsatzgruppen, but actual combat units. From the campaign in France of 1940 to the final days in 1945 SS units routinely slaughtered prisoners and non combatants. They lacked the soldierly honor that other members of the Wehrmacht in WWII did exemplify in thier refusal to implement National Socialist policies.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 13, 2015 12:22 AM

Stikpusher, didn't you serve in KFOR? These messes just seem to never go away.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, November 13, 2015 12:30 AM

No, I was a "errand boy" for IFOR/SFOR after they folded up house. Sent by gorcery clerks, to collect a bill. And no, the messes do not go away. It has kind of colored my view of things more so since then.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, November 13, 2015 12:33 AM

gjw

I was curious as to anyone seeing a trend that has enveloped much of the Western world starting to creep into the modeling community. I have both experienced this at a project fair and seen some comments on this forum in which someone was ridiculed for doing a diorama of the 13th SS Handschar. I am not looking for a debate but rather a dialogue with the community as to any experiences.

Thank You!

 

 

Wel, i seem to have missed this dio and the comments made towards it. I have not recieved any sort of ridicule for my own builds. I am certainly not in favour of PC but i don't see it creeping into the hobby. I have taken some of my dio's to a couple of shows as well as the monthly meeting of the model club and never been told its not appropriate or had any negative somments.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Friday, November 13, 2015 1:04 AM

Hello!

While I understand the concept behind Political Corectness and I don't want to insult anybody, every now and then I encounter people who want to tell me what I am allowed to model and what I'm not. The so called communists in Poland pre-1989 didn't allow the modellers to build German subjects. After the system change some people tried to tell the modellers not to build the soviet units, especially the NKVD, Smersh and so on. Many were also outraged by the models of Pope John Paul II. In Germany you run into problem when you put a swastika on your model. Well I think such things are just awful - not only do they take away my freedom of expression, but they also show a complete lack of understanding of what model building is all about. If I choose to show a part of well researched history in my model, I should have the right to do so. Even if I a fellow modeller chooses to model some fictional subject (Fantasy, '46, Mecha) this should be considerer a work of art, where we need some freedom of expression. Finally, there's something everybody can do - if you don't like it, don't look at it.

Thanks for reading, good luck with your modelling projects and have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: UK
Posted by Jon_a_its on Friday, November 13, 2015 4:26 AM

Pawel

Hello!

While I understand the concept behind Political Corectness and I don't want to insult anybody....

In Germany you run into problem when you put a swastika on your model....  

but they also show a complete lack of understanding of what model building is all about....

PaweÅ‚ 

As Pawel States very well, I don't intentionally seek to offend, nor am I offended by the depictions, provided they are grossly offensive.

In Germany, (SFAIK) it is legal to use the Hakenkreutz in it's correct historical setting, but not to glorify it.

In practice this means that Model Mfrs either omit the Hakenkreutz or 'half' them, if they want to sell kits in Germany.

It also means that German Modellers who wish to display certain colour schemes in public, also omit the marking, or put a tent over them...

& then there's the line, 

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.

Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them.

Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

Yadda-ya... 

East Mids Model Club 32nd Annual Show 2nd April 2023

 http://www.eastmidsmodelclub.co.uk/

Don't feed the CM!

 

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Friday, November 13, 2015 6:39 AM

If the vehicle I'm modeling comes with SS markings that look cool,then I will use them.I guess the only one that I went out of my way to do was Michael Wittman's 007 and crew.But my builds are for me,I don't display them at work,so I can't say I have expierienced this.But personally I have no problems with SS vehicles or figures.

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: The cornfields of Ohio
Posted by crockett on Friday, November 13, 2015 7:18 AM

If it is somehow perceived that we endorse evil when we model historical subjects, which seems to be the case lately, then, those perceptions are mistaken. I find it ridiculous that the swastika decal is banned in model kits marketed in Germany, for example.

While stationed in Germany in the 70's, I had many conversations with many a veteran Landser about their experiences. I tried to put myself in those shoes, so to speak, as a young man to understand the dynamic of the German people at the time.

The grand error, in my view, is not acknowledging, and discussing, what our collective history really is with younger generations. Not to live in the past, but to clearly realize what has happened in our many conflicts both domestic and foreign. The only way to move forward IMO.

We are motivated in our hobby, to re-create realistic subject matter because it's interesting, not because we want to glorify a political philosophy. We need to replicate our modeling subjects accurately, so as to judge the quality of the work, leaving behind a "political" burden that has no place in what we do.

Peace out......

  • Member since
    November 2013
Posted by MRME on Friday, November 13, 2015 7:35 AM

yes I have, I was on a sister site to this one, different mag and you can't post a picture of the General lee and the rebel flag, a model of a german tank with a swatzstika on it WTF, people, Its just a model get over yourself, Political politness what is that just another form of sensorship, I asked a few different times about this and was told that those were offensive images, Huh ????  So to answer the original question yes I have, and it just does'nt make any sense to me.Censored

anyone needing/wanting info about me contact me a richduddy@gmail.com. I only give info about myself on a need to know basis.

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, November 13, 2015 7:59 AM

MRME

...........I was on a sister site to this one, different mag and you can't post a picture of the General lee and the rebel flag, ...............

 

FSM forum members recently had a prolonged discussion about the rebel flag and the General Lee. Whistling
BTW.............Chill out............that smiley is not whistling Dixie...Wink
Tags: General Lee
  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM

As someone who lived through WW2, though too young to fight in it (I had family who did), I find it hard to have much reverence for any WW2 German modeling subjects.  Maybe I was just too susceptible to our own propogranda.  But when I read history I don't think that is the problem.  The Nazi empire was truly evil.

Sad thing is, we as humans did not learn anything. So much genicide and ethnic cleansing continued after the war, and continues yet today!

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Friday, November 13, 2015 9:42 AM

Jon_a_its
 
Pawel

Hello!

While I understand the concept behind Political Corectness and I don't want to insult anybody....

In Germany you run into problem when you put a swastika on your model....  

but they also show a complete lack of understanding of what model building is all about....

PaweÅ‚ 

 

As Pawel States very well, I don't intentionally seek to offend, nor am I offended by the depictions, provided they are grossly offensive.

In Germany, (SFAIK) it is legal to use the Hakenkreutz in it's correct historical setting, but not to glorify it.

In practice this means that Model Mfrs either omit the Hakenkreutz or 'half' them, if they want to sell kits in Germany.

It also means that German Modellers who wish to display certain colour schemes in public, also omit the marking, or put a tent over them...

& then there's the line, 

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.

Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them.

Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

Yadda-ya... 

 

 

I completely agree with you 2000% !!! Here's the sad thing, schools and colleges nowadays have become more politically correct themselves, it's scary.

A long, long while back, I remember reading something that some folks want to do away with our U.S. Constitution. They claim it's "outdated." Really? You really want to go there?

gjw
  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Saint Anthony, North Dakota
Posted by gjw on Friday, November 13, 2015 10:12 AM

The comment was not so much calling them evil (which is entirely correct by the number of attrocities committed by them) it was more of a comment ridiculing the modeler for even painting the 1/35 dragon set. I completely agree with your reasoning and views on the SS as a whole but it seems people today are to concerned with feelings than the truth on certain points of history.

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 13, 2015 10:21 AM

Lot of venting here, when the original poster has neither displayed the dio he is referring to, or any reaction to it, or why the reactions if in fact they exist, "ridiculed" it. And if those "ridicules" were somehow PC.

Short of accusing them of trolling, I would say that going into the old PC argument over such thin stuff is a little premature.

I went back and dug it up. This was a Dragon kit marketed as "German Mountain Troops", all three terms not really factual. It was discussed on many modeling forums, not only this one. I found two here. The more recent, by Model Maniac, got a negative reaction from yours truly about a complete lack of taste, and insensitivity. But as Stikpusher said at the beginning, disgust for the Waffen SS (which these guys are only even marginally affiliated with) is a legitimate obsevration, and an utter disgust for Muslim civilian murderers, which these guys were, were created to do and focussed on Catholics and Jews, certainly is something that needs to be said. In particular because the original poster of that older thread has a habit of commissioning builds from others and throwing them up, without any idea what they represent. I got pillow pummeled a little , but wasn't accused of being PC, just thin skinned.

The earlier thread I found did contain a fair amount of silliness, by others, to the effect that Shriners have RED fez'es, not Feld Grau ones, and where are the clown cars. That's just humor.

The absurdity of the whole culture of accusations of "PC" are that first of all, most opinions labeled as such, left or right, are fundamentally legitimate ones. In other words, besides being "PC", they also happen to be "C". Life is full of gray areas, which I wouldn't expect a 19 year old to understand, and shouting down people for what they advocate is a bad trend, though our poster here has not done so.

Anyone wishing to understand or debate why Germany outlaws the display of the Swastika should start by reading the excellent Wiki article on the subject, and then perhaps reflect a little on why that group of people, subjected to what they were, need us to tell them how to self govern.

And last, my observation of Stikpushers service was only slightly off- same conflict, different era. And the man humbles himself where no humility is necessary. Anyone who risks their life in a foreign country to insert themselves between the forces and counterforces of ethnic cleansing is in my opinion a hero. That's my point.

These forums are FULL of Waffen SS, IJN, Fascist Italian and whatever else subjects that people enjoy modeling and knowing about. Most go unremarked on, and rightly so. People model that, it's their right of course. I was tempted to compare the subject referrenced to a dio of an ISIS guy standing behind someone on their knees, but that's unfair so I won't. But do read up on the history of the 13th SS and consider that it might be beyond the reason of someones stomach to take here. There are forum rules after all concerning such things, in order to have a more inclusive readership.

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 13, 2015 10:22 AM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

 

 
Jon_a_its
 
Pawel

Hello!

While I understand the concept behind Political Corectness and I don't want to insult anybody....

In Germany you run into problem when you put a swastika on your model....  

but they also show a complete lack of understanding of what model building is all about....

PaweÅ‚ 

 

As Pawel States very well, I don't intentionally seek to offend, nor am I offended by the depictions, provided they are grossly offensive.

In Germany, (SFAIK) it is legal to use the Hakenkreutz in it's correct historical setting, but not to glorify it.

In practice this means that Model Mfrs either omit the Hakenkreutz or 'half' them, if they want to sell kits in Germany.

It also means that German Modellers who wish to display certain colour schemes in public, also omit the marking, or put a tent over them...

& then there's the line, 

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.

Those who do not read history are doomed to repeat it.

Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them.

Those who do not know history's mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

Yadda-ya... 

 

 

 

 

I completely agree with you 2000% !!! Here's the sad thing, schools and colleges nowadays have become more politically correct themselves, it's scary.

A long, long while back, I remember reading something that some folks want to do away with our U.S. Constitution. They claim it's "outdated." Really? You really want to go there?

 

Back off on the politics, BS. Those folks after all did lose the Civil War.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, November 13, 2015 11:03 AM

gjw

The comment was not so much calling them evil (which is entirely correct by the number of attrocities committed by them) it was more of a comment ridiculing the modeler for even painting the 1/35 dragon set. I completely agree with your reasoning and views on the SS as a whole but it seems people today are to concerned with feelings than the truth on certain points of history.

 

Can you post a link to the diorama in question. The only one i can find.

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/19/t/114545.aspx?page=2#1183309

is 6 years old, the links are broken and i don't see the comments you are reffering to.

And i will repeat, i have neither seen or recieved any comments of the kind you are reffering to and i build German subjects and display German flag and insignia on them, including SS markings.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Houston, Texas
Posted by panzerpilot on Friday, November 13, 2015 11:05 AM

History is history. It's not our jobs as modellers to change that. It's a shame some would like to, through censorship. I'll just model whatever subject or controversial item as I darn well please to as a reflection of history, art and personal freedom to do so. It's just sad if others don't 'get it', especially if they are in this hobby. However, I don't see this as a big issue. Yet, anyway.

-Tom

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, November 13, 2015 11:24 AM

Folks seem to be getting a bit too intense around here.

Even a brief review of history clearly demonstrates that human societies rise and fall ; some with greater rapidity than others.

It's simply that time for our society.Big Smile No worries.Wink

Of course, it may put a significant crimp in the number of model kits being designed and sold.Hmm

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, November 13, 2015 11:31 AM

Regarding "Wiki" articles. I would advise being very, very cautious of the content of Wiki articles.

The warning against believing everything posted on the internet also applies to Wiki articles.

Per Wiki policy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_policies_and_guidelines

 Wikipedia is free content that anyone can use, edit, and distribute.

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 13, 2015 11:48 AM

That particular Wiki article is a good one that has a lot of footnotes that also hold up. Please spare me the lecture, Sprue. You know I don't just grab stuff off the net.

Panzer, no one is censoring or banning this. The OP here threw out the usual "I hate PC" stuff, but didn't/ can't produce anything to back up his claim. Just the usual, world going to hell stuff.

Bish, here's the two on FSM I could find.

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/19/t/114545.aspx?page=1

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/19/p/157591/1721093.aspx#1721093

The first one seems generally pretty complimentary. No PC, no ridicule. The second one has the pictures you are looking for, Bish. Also I wouldn't say it was complimentary in response, because MM's dios don't much get that since they are really sloppy. But certainly not PCish, and no ridicule.

The OP here just stirred it up, but there's nothing, repeat nothing I see to back his rant.

I'm done here, leave this mess to the rest of you.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Friday, November 13, 2015 11:52 AM

Actually, I have no way of knowing what folks around here use as references.

I still stand by my admonition, despite any one forum member's preferences.

Sounds like somebody needs a tasty Haggis for dinner.Whistling

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Friday, November 13, 2015 11:53 AM

Political correctness is nothing more than an attack on free speech, driven by the claim that the person complaining has been offended.

It's a means of controlling the terms of any argument, so you can shut down your opponent without actually countering his argument.  You simply say that you're offended, and convince everyone else that the content you don't like must be suppressed.

It's one step up from ad hominem attacks, in terms of conducting an argument (By "argument", I mean, "reasoned debate to prove or disprove a point", not the vernacular, "shouting match").  If you can't defend your position with logic, you just call your opponent a name, and that's that.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 13, 2015 11:54 AM

It's true the other way around too, Baron.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, November 13, 2015 11:56 AM

PC comments in modeling... have I experienced any myself on any builds? No. And I build stuff from any nation and armed service that interests me. Have I heard any comments at any clubs or contests that I attended? Well the closest thing that I have heard was a youngster asking if some nude nose art was appropriate. I explained to him that if the real aircraft displayed that artwork, yes it was because us modelers like to represent reality in miniature accurately. And that made sense to him. I think as a whole us modelers understand that concept quite well. It's the rest of folks who see our work that may not get that concept.

Getting back on to WWII, just have a look at international relations today between Japan, China, and Korea. Both China and Korea are quite vociferous towards Japan regarding Japanese conduct in those countries during and before the war. Study of history there shows that Imperial Japan did horrible things there as national policy, and to this day remains reluctant to speak honestly about those deeds. Yet, there is minimal outcry regarding the rising sun banner under which those actions were perpetrated. And Chinese & Korean model companies will turn out oodles of WWII German subject kits: land sea, and air. While only a small handful of Japanese subjects are put forth by those same companies. Bad feelings still run deep there.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, November 13, 2015 11:57 AM

GMorrison

That particular Wiki article is a good one that has a lot of footnotes that also hold up. Please spare me the lecture, Sprue. You know I don't just grab stuff off the net.

Panzer, no one is censoring or banning this. The OP here threw out the usual "I hate PC" stuff, but didn't/ can't produce anything to back up his claim. Just the usual, world going to hell stuff.

Bish, here's the two on FSM I could find.

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/19/t/114545.aspx?page=1

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/19/p/157591/1721093.aspx#1721093

The first one seems generally pretty complimentary. No PC, no ridicule. The second one has the pictures you are looking for, Bish. Also I wouldn't say it was complimentary in response, because MM's dios don't much get that since they are really sloppy. But certainly not PCish, and no ridicule.

The OP here just stirred it up, but there's nothing, repeat nothing I see to back his rant.

I'm done here, leave this mess to the rest of you.

 

GMorrison

That particular Wiki article is a good one that has a lot of footnotes that also hold up. Please spare me the lecture, Sprue. You know I don't just grab stuff off the net.

Panzer, no one is censoring or banning this. The OP here threw out the usual "I hate PC" stuff, but didn't/ can't produce anything to back up his claim. Just the usual, world going to hell stuff.

Bish, here's the two on FSM I could find.

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/19/t/114545.aspx?page=1

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/19/p/157591/1721093.aspx#1721093

The first one seems generally pretty complimentary. No PC, no ridicule. The second one has the pictures you are looking for, Bish. Also I wouldn't say it was complimentary in response, because MM's dios don't much get that since they are really sloppy. But certainly not PCish, and no ridicule.

The OP here just stirred it up, but there's nothing, repeat nothing I see to back his rant.

I'm done here, leave this mess to the rest of you.

 

GMorrison

That particular Wiki article is a good one that has a lot of footnotes that also hold up. Please spare me the lecture, Sprue. You know I don't just grab stuff off the net.

Panzer, no one is censoring or banning this. The OP here threw out the usual "I hate PC" stuff, but didn't/ can't produce anything to back up his claim. Just the usual, world going to hell stuff.

Bish, here's the two on FSM I could find.

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/19/t/114545.aspx?page=1

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/19/p/157591/1721093.aspx#1721093

The first one seems generally pretty complimentary. No PC, no ridicule. The second one has the pictures you are looking for, Bish. Also I wouldn't say it was complimentary in response, because MM's dios don't much get that since they are really sloppy. But certainly not PCish, and no ridicule.

The OP here just stirred it up, but there's nothing, repeat nothing I see to back his rant.

I'm done here, leave this mess to the rest of you.

 

Ye, that first link is the one i found. And i concur, this seems to be somthing about nothing. And there is nothing i hate more than the PC brigade. If it was there i would have seen it. And if it was here, i would certainly have been the victim of it.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, November 13, 2015 12:01 PM

stikpusher

PC comments in modeling... have I experienced any myself on any builds? No. And I build stuff from any nation and armed service that interests me. Have I heard any comments at any clubs or contests that I attended? Well the closest thing that I have heard was a youngster asking if some nude nose art was appropriate. I explained to him that if the real aircraft displayed that artwork, yes it was because us modelers like to represent reality in miniature accurately. And that made sense to him. I think as a whole us modelers understand that concept quite well. It's the rest of folks who see our work that may not get that concept.

Getting back on to WWII, just have a look at international relations today between Japan, China, and Korea. Both China and Japan are quite vociferous towards Japan regarding Japanese conduct in those countries during and before the war. Study of history there shows that Imperial Japan did horrible things there as national policy, and to this day remains reluctant to speak honestly about those deeds. Yet, there is minimal outcry regarding the rising sun banner under which those actions were perpetrated. And Chinese & Korean model companies will turn out oodles of WWII German subject kits: land sea, and air. While only a small handful of Japanese subjects are put forth by those same companies. Bad feelings still run deep there.

 

Of coiurse, much the same can be said about many nations. The UK is cerainly good at white washing our history, which certainly has a lot not to be proud of.

But i am sure we can all find things we find offensive or don't approve of. I have seen some posts/threads on here i take issue with. But, given the nature of the forum, i simply take the option of stayuing out of them. If you don't like it, you don't have to look, thats the way i see it.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Friday, November 13, 2015 12:58 PM

GMorrison

It's true the other way around too, Baron.

 

 

Yup. Two opinions don't make it right or wrong. It's call Freedom of Speech - politically correct or not.

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, November 13, 2015 2:11 PM

Bish, aside from Iceland, I really can't think of any nation that does not have some blood on their hands from the past. Boiled down, it's simply human nature to be violent with one another and enforce our will. Otherwise we as a species would have perished long ago. The big difference between the past and now is that now we have weaponry that can eliminate our entire species. The planet would survive, and some other life form likely evolve over time to become dominant. But we would be gone.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2015
Posted by Cat Daddy on Friday, November 13, 2015 2:24 PM

One thing that always seems to get left out, or forgotten from, these discussions of offense and political correctness is the idea of context. Context is very important. I recently had a discussion with my girlfriend about whether or not to put swastikas on the tails of Luftwaffe models. We both determined that historical accuracy was more important so I ordered a third-party decal sheet. So, I'll have swastikas on my airplanes, and it's on the cover of my copy of "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," but I in no way condone what the *** did nor do I find anything admirable about their policies. For me, in context, the decals belong on the models but what they represent belongs nowhere else in my life.

I have similar feelings about the confederate flag. It belongs in museums and on historical models, but governmental entities shouldn't be flying it. As for individuals, there are First Amendment considerations I don't want to delve into at the moment. I'm a bit of a Constitutional Law geek so I could go on for far longer than many of you would want to read.

Anyway, context is important. Too important to leave out of the discussion.

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  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posted by goldhammer on Friday, November 13, 2015 2:30 PM

As for me, when doing a model, I really don't look at the PC aspect of the model.  If it interests me or hits a nerve just right, I'll bring it home and work on it.

 

What does agrivate me though, are the model companies or stores bowing and scraping to be PC when ever a wave is created and pulling kits from the market.  ie. wally pulling the General Lee kits. 

 

I can understand it if there is a law in a country that prohibits certain aspects of a model or kit on the market, and that is another issue altogether, and not one for here, but for residents of that country to work out.

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Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 13, 2015 2:56 PM

goldhammer

What does agrivate me though, are the model companies or stores bowing and scraping to be PC when ever a wave is created and pulling kits from the market.  ie. wally pulling the General Lee kits. 

One of the beauties of the rights of free speech is the freedom to get up in the morning, tie your shoelaces from both shoes together, and try to walk.

That, was all about not offending customers, not being PC IMO. Those kits came back, which I think is even funnier.

$$$

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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  • From: Barrie, Ontario
Posted by Cdn Colin on Friday, November 13, 2015 3:40 PM

stikpusher

Bish, aside from Iceland, I really can't think of any nation that does not have some blood on their hands from the past. 

 

 

Being from Viking stock, their hands aren't pristine either.  It's interesting how these dicsussions evolve.

I've never experienced what the OP asked.  The idea of "PC" is that we don't offend anyone.  But it's interesting how offended people are by the concept of "PC"; people who expect others to be more thick skinned about offenses are very thin skinned about challenges to their right to offend.

I build 1/48 scale WW2 fighters.

Have fun.

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Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 13, 2015 3:49 PM

Maybe we can all agree that the OP tossed the Mars bar in the swimming pool?

I'm also one who doesn't get much positive out of German WW2 subjects, but to each his own. I decided at one point to really get it out of my system and build something unequivocably Nazi.

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by Bish on Friday, November 13, 2015 3:53 PM

Cdn Colin
 
stikpusher

Bish, aside from Iceland, I really can't think of any nation that does not have some blood on their hands from the past. 

 

 

 

 

Being from Viking stock, their hands aren't pristine either.  It's interesting how these dicsussions evolve.

I've never experienced what the OP asked.  The idea of "PC" is that we don't offend anyone.  But it's interesting how offended people are by the concept of "PC"; people who expect others to be more thick skinned about offenses are very thin skinned about challenges to their right to offend.

 

Offende, no. Simply infuriated by those who may try and tell me what i can and can't say and which views i can and can't express.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

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Posted by stikpusher on Friday, November 13, 2015 4:02 PM

CC, we are all well aware of the Vikings and their deeds. My point regarding Iceland was that it is one of the few areas in the world colonized and settled by folks that did not already have a native population that would become subjugated or worse. Their own history as a nation does not have the sort of past that most other nations of the world do. All the countries today in the Western Hemisphere had native populations that would see their own societies turned upside down with the arrival of European colonization over the 16th 17th 18th and 19th Centuries.

GM, if you look at the profile of the original poster for this thread, if it is truthful, he is a youngster, and this may have been a legit posting. Ot it could indeed be somebody stirring the pot. 

But to me, this is an intersting discussion topic, the way it can meander around and raise all sorts of points.

 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

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Posted by Cdn Colin on Friday, November 13, 2015 5:30 PM

Great points, well taken.  I think it's important to be able to say or express something controversial, but be open to explanations of why you're wrong.

As to Iceland, I recall reading a book by Farley Mowat about evidence of a preexisting population in Iceland.  They originated in the Shetlands, and were pushed accross the Atlantic my Viking expansion.  I read this almost 20 years ago.  It was The Farfarers.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/74168.The_Farfarers

I build 1/48 scale WW2 fighters.

Have fun.

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Posted by stikpusher on Friday, November 13, 2015 5:37 PM

Fascinating. I had never read or heard of such before. But then again I am not well versed on Icelandic history. I was under the impression that the island was uninhabited when it was settled by the Vikings. And another tidbit of information being that Iceland and Greenland naming as islands were a bit of disinformation by the Vikings. Anybody seeking Greenland off of Viking information would find only a frozen island wasteland and that Iceland would not sound tempting to those some folks.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

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Posted by Cdn Colin on Friday, November 13, 2015 8:36 PM

I happened upon the book on a rainy weekend at my in-law's cottage.  It was a pretty good read.  He wrote it as half narrative and half historical; the narrative sections were followed by his evidence.

I build 1/48 scale WW2 fighters.

Have fun.

gjw
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Posted by gjw on Friday, November 13, 2015 9:18 PM

What i meant for this tread was to discuss any cases of modellers or non modellers being offended by the creations of the community. Sadly this thread quickly became a little more heated than the average thread of the site. History should be told truthfully and honestly and creators should not feel boundaries based on the nature of the content. If you deny history the proper exposer it will slowly be forgotten. I apologize for lighting this powder keg but what is this site for than to discuss and share perspectives and ideas.  

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Posted by Bish on Saturday, November 14, 2015 1:45 PM

gjw

What i meant for this tread was to discuss any cases of modellers or non modellers being offended by the creations of the community. Sadly this thread quickly became a little more heated than the average thread of the site. History should be told truthfully and honestly and creators should not feel boundaries based on the nature of the content. If you deny history the proper exposer it will slowly be forgotten. I apologize for lighting this powder keg but what is this site for than to discuss and share perspectives and ideas.  

 

I would not say this thread has become heated at all. I think in general most of the posters agree that we don't like PC, so would agree with your comments. But what is a bit of an issue is the suggestion that a certain thread shows examples of PC, but i certainly don't see it.

Maybe you could point out which posts you think are being PC.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

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Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, November 14, 2015 2:26 PM

Now the accusation is denying history???

No, I get you. Keep scratching those matches and you'll blow yourself up.

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by Don Stauffer on Sunday, November 15, 2015 11:53 AM

Are we really talking about political correctness, or is this really a social correctness issue?  By this I mean that no government seems to be worried about it right now, no votes pending, few laws up in the air.  Really, I see it more as a sensitivity to those who suffered harm by a group/movement. Some of those folks are still around, and I think we should be sensitive to them, both the folks directly affected and by their children.

 

 

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

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Posted by Cdn Colin on Sunday, November 15, 2015 11:59 AM

That's a good point, Don.  Food for thought.  I don't set out to offend anyone; but I know that there are some people who derive great pleasure from others' discomfort.

I build 1/48 scale WW2 fighters.

Have fun.

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Posted by Bish on Sunday, November 15, 2015 12:30 PM

Don Stauffer

Are we really talking about political correctness, or is this really a social correctness issue?  By this I mean that no government seems to be worried about it right now, no votes pending, few laws up in the air.  Really, I see it more as a sensitivity to those who suffered harm by a group/movement. Some of those folks are still around, and I think we should be sensitive to them, both the folks directly affected and by their children.

 

 

 

 

Problem there is Don, the list of people who mght take offense is never ending. I know here we are talking mainly about the Germans. But they were not the only nation to attempt genoicde and commt some pretty vile crimes.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

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Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, November 15, 2015 1:10 PM

Listen, we are being trolled.

But lets assume a happy moment where this guy exits stage left.

 

Ok- now the complaint was a response to a negative observation about the 13 SS, never mind that there was no evidence provided regarding either PC behavior or ridicule. Obviously this guy wanted to start a flame war defending the SS.

These guys were NOT Germans but Croatians, were NOT an organized unit in the sense that they were like an SS Panzer Division. In Himmlers words Muslim men would make perfect SS soldiers as Islam "promises them Heaven if they fight and are killed in action." Whether or not he was right, it was an entirely cynical move to terrorize anyone sympathetic to Tito or the movement to overthrow the invaders, in this case the Bosnian Christians and Jews.

And, Model Maniac did not model them, as we know so therefore was not somehow entering into research of a subject in which he had any interest, for sure. They were a kit on the shelf, he hired "Jo" to build them so that they could be added to his website and museum, both commercial enterprises.

Having questioned whether that was so insensitive a subject that it didn't belong here, I endured a fair amount of pummeling about these being little plastic toys and don't be so thin skinned etc., but I have no problem speaking out against things I find so abhorent as to make me sick.

Denying history?

Look, there's a too common playbook here being read by the troll. I'd like to see him come out and show why any criticism of the 13th SS is in turn worthy of condemnation.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, November 15, 2015 2:56 PM

Actually the 13th SS were what would today be known as Bosniaks- the Muslim population of that particular province. Croations are primarily Catholic, and during WWII were very much in league with The Germans in WWII. They had their own units equivalant to the  Handschar troops, known as Ustaše. The Germans exploited the ethnic divisions of Yugoslavia and some of that exploitation and its' living memories were contributing factors in the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s once Tito died.

I suspect that our original poster has little to no knowledge of the history of either group, or WWII in Yugoslavia in general.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

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Posted by plasticjunkie on Sunday, November 15, 2015 3:11 PM

Bish
 Problem there is Don, the list of people who mght take offense is never ending. I know here we are talking mainly about the Germans. But they were not the only nation to attempt genoicde and commt some pretty vile crimes.
 

 

Bish is correct. Would a dio depicting the savage and inhumane deeds of the IJA draw the same negative reaction? I'm not giving Germany a free pass on this but Japan's atrocities are overlooked or just forgotten.

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

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Posted by GMorrison on Sunday, November 15, 2015 3:37 PM

Right Stik, got confused working from memory. They were Bosnians, whgich at the time was subsumed into the Croatian Republic. My relatives are Croat Catholics and they live in Italy, on account of persecution by the Ottomans back in the 16th.

It goes on and on.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

gjw
  • Member since
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  • From: Saint Anthony, North Dakota
Posted by gjw on Monday, November 16, 2015 12:53 AM

Your presumption is a little rash considering I never defended any action of any branch or divison of the SS. I was simply stating that the upload of Model Maniac had a user belittling the work of the modeller due to the subject (aka lumps of plastic and paint).

The *** also make me sick ( especially certain foreign units and turn coats such as the French and english) not only the huge number of war crimes but also the dogma that still is perpetuated to this day. My point was to simply say that though we are disgusted by history, we shouldn't shy away from it due to its offensive nature while also taking into account peoples sensitivities to the material

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Posted by seastallion53 on Monday, November 16, 2015 1:21 AM

I put swastikas on german a/c for historical reasons not to glorify *** in any way.

Tags: p/c modeling
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Posted by GMorrison on Monday, November 16, 2015 10:53 AM

gjw

My point was to simply say that though we are disgusted by history, we shouldn't shy away from it due to its offensive nature while also taking into account peoples sensitivities to the material

 

Point taken, but we are all free to express our opinions too. I probably would have liked MM to include some information about the 13th SS, it is indeed well worth knowing about. But to basically do what he always does, toss up bad models of subjects that he and his company of professional builders neither understand or care about, is bad for the hobby. And that's not just my opinion. I think the "enjoy" at the end did it for me.

This "PC" thing is an excuse for bad behavior. Along the lines of "don't crit it if you can't do better" and "don't look if you don't like it".

Would I jump on it again? Probably not, I too have learned something from this. Was my reaction "PC". Nonsense.

Also re read the original thread. The whole crit of giant holes and blobs of paint was directed at the other model in the same post, an 88. I'll give you credit there, that was ridicule. But, again, not "PC" just fairly rude comments about lousy modeling.

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Monday, November 16, 2015 2:25 PM

Hello!

I think we would all agree that there's no downside to a good model or dio of even the most vicious war criminals, if it's well researched and built well. Some info about who they were and what they did would probably also be most welcome.

But I have to defend the "If you don't like it, don't look" rule. Or maybe I should put it more precisely - I'm very interested in your moral judgment of the subject and I'd love to hear your opinion about what I modeled, just don't tell me what I can model and what not. Building models doesn't harm anyone, so it should be free. Showing pictures also doesn't harm anyone, neither. But I'm for warnings in the thread title (for example) to let the people decide before viewing, if they might not like something. This is how I understand freedom and it is important to me.

Thanks for reading and have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

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Posted by the doog on Monday, November 16, 2015 3:31 PM

Sprue-ce Goose

Regarding "Wiki" articles. I would advise being very, very cautious of the content of Wiki articles.

The warning against believing everything posted on the internet also applies to Wiki articles.

Per Wiki policy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_policies_and_guidelines

 Wikipedia is free content that anyone can use, edit, and distribute.

 

 

 

Actually, Wikipedia is considered by many to be one of the most accurate sites on the internet. It is constantly revised to contain the most current information and the information is peer-reviewed and corrected. You can't just anonymously edit the text to alter facts; you must cite your sources, and attribute your email/identity to your additions and your information can be challenged and removed if found to be errant or propaganda.

  • Member since
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  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, November 16, 2015 3:41 PM

gjw

Your presumption is a little rash considering I never defended any action of any branch or divison of the SS. I was simply stating that the upload of Model Maniac had a user belittling the work of the modeller due to the subject (aka lumps of plastic and paint).

The *** also make me sick ( especially certain foreign units and turn coats such as the French and english) not only the huge number of war crimes but also the dogma that still is perpetuated to this day. My point was to simply say that though we are disgusted by history, we shouldn't shy away from it due to its offensive nature while also taking into account peoples sensitivities to the material

 

Maybe there is more here than you realise. I know you have been a member for a few yeras, but i wounder if you really undertsand the relantionship between MM and many otehrs on the forum. I would suggest that the comments you are concerned about are not based on just the build in question but on MM's posts in general.

As i mentioned before, i have never come across what you are claiming either on this site or any other. This is one of 2 SS diorama's i did last year.

If any SS unit was going to draw condemnation from a largely American audiance, it would be this one. But i recieved nothing of what you are suggesting. So you might wnat to look a little further into the comments of MM's post rather than make the assumption its about a PC brigade.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

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Posted by SubarooMike on Monday, November 16, 2015 3:44 PM

Bish

 

 
gjw

Your presumption is a little rash considering I never defended any action of any branch or divison of the SS. I was simply stating that the upload of Model Maniac had a user belittling the work of the modeller due to the subject (aka lumps of plastic and paint).

The *** also make me sick ( especially certain foreign units and turn coats such as the French and english) not only the huge number of war crimes but also the dogma that still is perpetuated to this day. My point was to simply say that though we are disgusted by history, we shouldn't shy away from it due to its offensive nature while also taking into account peoples sensitivities to the material

 

 

 

Maybe there is more here than you realise. I know you have been a member for a few yeras, but i wounder if you really undertsand the relantionship between MM and many otehrs on the forum. I would suggest that the comments you are concerned about are not based on just the build in question but on MM's posts in general.

As i mentioned before, i have never come across what you are claiming either on this site or any other. This is one of 2 SS diorama's i did last year.

If any SS unit was going to draw condemnation from a largely American audiance, it would be this one. But i recieved nothing of what you are suggesting. So you might wnat to look a little further into the comments of MM's post rather than make the assumption its about a PC brigade.

 

 

Beautiful dio

  • Member since
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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Monday, November 16, 2015 4:54 PM

the doog

 

 
Sprue-ce Goose

Regarding "Wiki" articles. I would advise being very, very cautious of the content of Wiki articles.

The warning against believing everything posted on the internet also applies to Wiki articles.

Per Wiki policy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_policies_and_guidelines

 Wikipedia is free content that anyone can use, edit, and distribute.

  

Actually, Wikipedia is considered by many to be one of the most accurate sites on the internet. It is constantly revised to contain the most current information and the information is peer-reviewed and corrected. You can't just anonymously edit the text to alter facts; you must cite your sources, and attribute your email/identity to your additions and your information can be challenged and removed if found to be errant or propaganda.

Doog:

Thanks for the vote of confidence in Wikipedia.

In that case, Wikipedia standards must have changed considerably since I first viewed a Wikipedia webpage perhaps ten years ago.

The historical accuracy of the page I viewed at the time was so obviously wrong that I shunned the website.

As for Wikipedia today:

I do note that comments are now being added to web pages such as the text at the top of this webpage:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Tootoosis

However, it would be helpful if whoever posted the notation:" This article needs additional citations for verification" had also noted those sections or statements which have not been verified. I do not see any obvious mention of what requires verification within such an article- or did I miss something in the references section? 

Perhaps clicking on each hyperlink and sifting through every related web page is necessary in order to discover the reason why additional citations are needed? 

.

In view of this thread's title, I hope my post is suitably PC ...............Whistling

Tags: Wikipedia
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Posted by GMorrison on Monday, November 16, 2015 5:06 PM

Certainly a nice dio.

Pawel thank you for the thoughtful reply.

I should have added one more: "I'm sorry if this offended you".

1) You probably aren't, really.

2) Why should you be?

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
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Posted by GMorrison on Monday, November 16, 2015 5:09 PM

Good old Amazon is now bombarding me with offers for books about the SS.

Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! says Mr. Bill

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Monday, November 16, 2015 5:20 PM

I guess I must be the lucky one.

So far, no pop-ups about Oujé-Bougoumo or the Wapos Falcon.Hmm

  • Member since
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Posted by GMorrison on Monday, November 16, 2015 5:26 PM

Oujé-Bougoumo

I mean, I HAD to giggle that one.

According to Wikipedia: 725 people. Your mission is to go count 'em. Maybe tonight in the bar.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Monday, November 16, 2015 5:28 PM

Don't blame ya.

Don Kelly liked the word  "Oujé-Bougoumo" so much he said it several times at the beginning of one of his shows.Big Smile

gjw
  • Member since
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  • From: Saint Anthony, North Dakota
Posted by gjw on Monday, November 16, 2015 6:30 PM

I suppose I should have worded the original post better, also I was lacking when it came to sources. My intention was more a question of any personal experiences. You do raise some valid points and I'm sorry if I offended any directly or indirectly. Though I stand by my original argument I do see your side of the argument and I hopes we can both respect each others opinions.

  • Member since
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Posted by GMorrison on Monday, November 16, 2015 6:43 PM

Yes sir, I agree and sincerely apologize for the "troll" comment, that was completely undeserved.

I have never encountered any comments about anything I've modeled from a "PC" perspective, but as I've said I put no stock in the concept anyways.

I did get literally thrown off a forum once for posting a picture of a stark naked young lady, from the backside. Rather lovely figure, but I did break the rules.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

gjw
  • Member since
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  • From: Saint Anthony, North Dakota
Posted by gjw on Monday, November 16, 2015 7:25 PM

That's a shame, I always found it odd that the human body is somehow off limits but I digress. I'm glad we settle our diferences amicably.

 

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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Monday, November 16, 2015 8:15 PM

If nothing else works- 

almost anything can be patched up with a little bondo, man ! Big SmileYes

Good to hear things are getting back to normal around here.Stick out tongue

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, November 16, 2015 10:26 PM

Sounds like we have reached the point where a round of fermented beverages is in order. Preferably served by appropriately garbed attractive ladies ;)

Beer! Beer! Beer! Said the Privates!

Merry Men are we!

But none so fair that they can compare to the Airborne Infantry!

Beer

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Monday, November 16, 2015 10:33 PM

Whiskey for the men and beer for their horses ............! Big Smile

  • Member since
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Posted by GMorrison on Monday, November 16, 2015 11:19 PM

Bondo is in the rum!

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Monday, November 16, 2015 11:49 PM

Sprue-ce Goose

Whiskey for the men and beer for their horses ............! Big Smile

 

ah yes, a great song!

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 12:40 AM

Hello!

It's kinda like the old forums are back again! Now let us build some models! Good luck with that and have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

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  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 6:31 AM

OK lads, enough talk and let grab a drink and back to the the bench for that wonnerful  smell of plastic!

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
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  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 10:49 AM

plasticjunkie

OK lads, enough talk and let grab a drink and back to the the bench for that wonnerful  smell of plastic!

 

I don't drink so i am afraid i will have to find somthing else to enjoy as well as keping my hands busy.

 

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, now, what could i do.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

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  • From: Cameron, Texas
Posted by Texgunner on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:01 AM

Bish

 

 
plasticjunkie

OK lads, enough talk and let grab a drink and back to the the bench for that wonnerful  smell of plastic!

 

 

 

I don't drink so i am afraid i will have to find somthing else to enjoy as well as keping my hands busy.

 

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, now, what could i do.

 

From the looks of that pic, that should be easy!Big Smile

Gary


"All you mugs need to get busy building, and post pics!"

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    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:21 AM

Texgunner
 
Bish

 

 
plasticjunkie

OK lads, enough talk and let grab a drink and back to the the bench for that wonnerful  smell of plastic!

 

 

 

I don't drink so i am afraid i will have to find somthing else to enjoy as well as keping my hands busy.

 

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, now, what could i do.

 

 

 

From the looks of that pic, that should be easy!Big Smile

Gary

 

I have no idea what your talking about i'm afraid Whistling

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 2:54 PM

Bish
Texgunner
 
Bish
plasticjunkie

OK lads, enough talk and let grab a drink and back to the the bench for that wonnerful  smell of plastic!

I don't drink so i am afraid i will have to find somthing else to enjoy as well as keping my hands busy.

 

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, now, what could i do.

 

From the looks of that pic, that should be easy!Big Smile

Gary

  

I have no idea what your talking about i'm afraid Whistling

 

.......probably means being helpful by retrieving the empties and returning with more beer.............Wink

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 3:12 PM

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 3:32 PM

 

...always gives me a good feeling to see so many happy faces..........Big Smile

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 4:54 PM

Sprue-ce Goose

 

 
the doog

 

 
Sprue-ce Goose

Regarding "Wiki" articles. I would advise being very, very cautious of the content of Wiki articles.

The warning against believing everything posted on the internet also applies to Wiki articles.

Per Wiki policy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_policies_and_guidelines

 Wikipedia is free content that anyone can use, edit, and distribute.

  

Actually, Wikipedia is considered by many to be one of the most accurate sites on the internet. It is constantly revised to contain the most current information and the information is peer-reviewed and corrected. You can't just anonymously edit the text to alter facts; you must cite your sources, and attribute your email/identity to your additions and your information can be challenged and removed if found to be errant or propaganda.

 

 

Doog:

Thanks for the vote of confidence in Wikipedia.

In that case, Wikipedia standards must have changed considerably since I first viewed a Wikipedia webpage perhaps ten years ago.

The historical accuracy of the page I viewed at the time was so obviously wrong that I shunned the website.

As for Wikipedia today:

I do note that comments are now being added to web pages such as the text at the top of this webpage:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Tootoosis

However, it would be helpful if whoever posted the notation:" This article needs additional citations for verification" had also noted those sections or statements which have not been verified. I do not see any obvious mention of what requires verification within such an article- or did I miss something in the references section? 

Perhaps clicking on each hyperlink and sifting through every related web page is necessary in order to discover the reason why additional citations are needed? 

.

In view of this thread's title, I hope my post is suitably PC ...............Whistling

 

Spruce, the info I posted was from when I researched the subject of Wiki's accuracy 

Check this out:

"In 2005, the peer-reviewed journal Nature asked scientists to compare Wikipedia's scientific articles to those in Encyclopaedia Britannica—"the most scholarly of encyclopedias," according to its own Wiki page. The comparison resulted in a tie; both references contained four serious errors among the 42 articles analyzed by experts.

And last year, a study published in the Journal of Clinical Oncology found that Wikipedia had the same level of accuracy and depth in its articles about 10 types of cancer as the Physician Data Query, a professionally edited database maintained by the National Cancer Institute.

The self-described "free encyclopedia that anyone can edit" has fared similarly well in most other studies comparing its accuracy to conventional encyclopedias, including studies by The Guardian, PC Pro, Library Journal, the Canadian Library Association, and several peer-reviewed academic studies."

from http://www.livescience.com/32950-how-accurate-is-wikipedia.html   Smile

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 7:31 PM

Doog:

Thanks for the info.

I'll check it out.

I would still very much prefer that notations posted in in Wikipedia web pages stating: " This article needs additional citations for verification" actually refer to those items requiring verification. 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:51 AM

Hello!

I don't know for sure, but I believe the details to the edits of individual Wikipedia articles can be seen in the discussion page and in the revision history page. Nobody ever looks there, but the information is provided.

Have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 8:02 AM

Pawel

Hello!

I don't know for sure, but I believe the details to the edits of individual Wikipedia articles can be seen in the discussion page and in the revision history page. Nobody ever looks there, but the information is provided.

Have a nice day

Paweł

 

Pawel,
Thank you for the suggestion.
I was unaware of that availability and will check into it.
Maybe I should giggle a Wiki article on how to check a Wiki article..............Hmm
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 8:35 AM

GMorrison

Good old Amazon is now bombarding me with offers for books about the SS.

Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! says Mr. Bill

 

Noooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
 
Amazon is bombarding me with offers for James Burke DVDsCrying
  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 9:25 AM

So...wait. Political correctness, then ***, then the Japanese, then back to ***, then Iceland, then Vikings, then Wikipedia, then beer girls, then back to Wikipedia? 

BTW, does this tie in with Doog's blog post in any way? 

EDIT: and FSM is censoring "N-A-Z-I". Thanks FineScale forums Confused

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 9:48 AM

Moff

So...wait. Political correctness, then ***, then the Japanese, then back to ***, then Iceland, then Vikings, then Wikipedia, then beer girls, then back to Wikipedia? 

..............

.....and on to Amazon..............

................I've heard the forum works in mysterious ways.............must be true...Hmm

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:39 AM

Moff

So...wait. Political correctness, then ***, then the Japanese, then back to ***, then Iceland, then Vikings, then Wikipedia, then beer girls, then back to Wikipedia? 

BTW, does this tie in with Doog's blog post in any way? 

EDIT: and FSM is censoring "N-A-Z-I". Thanks FineScale forums Confused

 

Nazi censored? No, not true.

A Nazi was in a beer hall and met another Nazi. So there were two *** at the table.

The "censorship" or as I call it the Nanny Bot looks for flame wars. It's been explained, and I believe, that the plural term is banned if you will in the context of following the word "rivet", a pejorative used on those accused of being too obsessed with detail correctness.

Calling anyone a Nazi is a pretty unacceptable insult.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:45 AM

Sprue-ce Goose

 

 
Moff

So...wait. Political correctness, then ***, then the Japanese, then back to ***, then Iceland, then Vikings, then Wikipedia, then beer girls, then back to Wikipedia? 

..............

 

 

.....and on to Amazon..............

................I've heard the forum works in mysterious ways.............must be true...Hmm

 

And the Canadian Library Association got in there too. Not to mention small villages of 725 people in Ontario.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:42 AM

GMorrison

 

 
Moff

So...wait. Political correctness, then ***, then the Japanese, then back to ***, then Iceland, then Vikings, then Wikipedia, then beer girls, then back to Wikipedia? 

BTW, does this tie in with Doog's blog post in any way? 

EDIT: and FSM is censoring "N-A-Z-I". Thanks FineScale forums Confused

 

 

 

Nazi censored? No, not true.

 

A Nazi was in a beer hall and met another Nazi. So there were two *** at the table.

The "censorship" or as I call it the Nanny Bot looks for flame wars. It's been explained, and I believe, that the plural term is banned if you will in the context of following the word "rivet", a pejorative used on those accused of being too obsessed with detail correctness.

Calling anyone a Nazi is a pretty unacceptable insult.

 

We've had this specific discussion before, I'm pretty sure, in another thread, when I noticed what Moff is talking about, in one of my own posts.  Looks like the nannyware allows it in the singular, but not in the plural.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:49 AM

Whether or not the author meant to troll, he certainly created an entertaining thread Big Smile

And GMorrison, was that actually you ranting in one of those threads linked to? I can't picture you ever getting that heated, especially in that context. Or were you being sarcastic?

 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:59 AM

All in all, this has turned out well enough. No animals were harmed in the making of this thread. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 12:05 PM

True.

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 12:50 PM

stikpusher

All in all, this has turned out well enough. No animals were harmed in the making of this thread. 

 

 
Must be the dawning of the age of Aquarius......Hmm
.
.
 
"Wenn der Mond im siebten Hause steht 

und Jupiter auf Mars zu geht, 
herrscht Friede unter den Planeten 

lenkt Liebe ihre Bahn.
Genau ab dann regiert die Erde der Wassermann,." Whistling
  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 12:50 PM

Moff

And GMorrison, was that actually you ranting in one of those threads linked to?

No.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 12:52 PM

Wasserman???

EDIT: yes, got it!

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 12:52 PM

The one word post still lives !  Big Smile

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 12:53 PM

Big SmileYes

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posted by mustang1989 on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 1:11 PM

Oops

                   

 Forum | Modelers Social Club Forum (proboards.com) 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:43 PM

Panzerkampfwagen :-)

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:44 PM

See? German is perfect for one word posts.

Have a nice thread :-)))

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:49 PM

Götterdämmerung!

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 2:56 PM

The Internet has finally invaded FSM. When will the gratuitous cat memes arrive? 

BTW, this thread reminds me of Godwin's Law:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:01 PM

Pawel

Panzerkampfwagen :-)

 

GMorrison

Götterdämmerung!

 

 

Pawel

See? German is perfect for one word posts.

Have a nice thread :-)))

Paweł

 

 
bestimmt ! Big Smile
  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:09 PM

Moff

The Internet has finally invaded FSM. When will the gratuitous cat memes arrive? 

BTW, this thread reminds me of Godwin's Law:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law 

 

THAT is perfect, hence the block on *** as a term here.

Wht'a wrong with gratuitous cat memes?

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: Illinois: Hive of Scum and Villany
Posted by Sprue-ce Goose on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:16 PM

I'd like to know if Mike Godwin is six or fewer acquaintance links apart from actor Kevin Bacon............Whistling 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:17 PM

Nothing's wrong with gratuitous cat memes! It was more of a challenge than anything else.

Can I prove one of the corollaries of Godwin's Law? That being that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a meme involving *** or Hitler approaches 1"? 

 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:18 PM

Or Nick Nolte

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:19 PM

Moff

Nothing's wrong with gratuitous cat memes! It was more of a challenge than anything else.

Can I prove one of the corollaries of Godwin's Law? That being that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a meme involving *** or Hitler approaches 1"? 

 

Isn't that what started this whole fiasco? Moff, for a new guy you are learning fast!

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:23 PM

Couldn't...help myself...

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:23 PM

GMorrison

 

 
Moff

Nothing's wrong with gratuitous cat memes! It was more of a challenge than anything else.

Can I prove one of the corollaries of Godwin's Law? That being that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a meme involving *** or Hitler approaches 1"? 

 

 

 

Isn't that what started this whole fiasco? Moff, for a new guy you are learning fast!

 

 

I'll take that as a yes to my question:   

Was that too politically incorrect? Embarrassed

 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:29 PM

Moff
 
GMorrison

 

 
Moff

Nothing's wrong with gratuitous cat memes! It was more of a challenge than anything else.

Can I prove one of the corollaries of Godwin's Law? That being that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a meme involving *** or Hitler approaches 1"? 

 

 

 

Isn't that what started this whole fiasco? Moff, for a new guy you are learning fast!

 

 

 

 

I'll take that as a yes to my question:   

 

Was that too politically incorrect? Embarrassed

 

 

Now thats funny.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:31 PM

No comments for over 1 minute...my crassness has silenced the forums. I hear the ban hammer being raised Indifferent 

EDIT: never mind lol.

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posted by mustang1989 on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:49 PM

 

                   

 Forum | Modelers Social Club Forum (proboards.com) 

  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Thursday, November 19, 2015 8:34 AM

Ahh;

    I had my experience many years ago . I have mentioned it on this site . My Bismark and 'Butcher Bird" and a Jewish Community Center .

 It took me a long time to get over the ensuing personal scene that took place that day . Seems the venue was Jewish owned and three of the folks ( older ones , I might add ) were looking at the models and came to my models and had a gigantic hissy fit .

 Well, although miffed I removed the models from the competition because I noticed something on the arm of one of the complainers . You know of what I speak .

 You see , the emotional reverberations of that experience would cause anyone trauma of an emotional nature . Personally , I have had my own , so I then understood . I still hurt from having to withdraw over half of what I had on display and two items I had in competition .

 That said , P.C. bothers me  " Lest we Forget "               T.B.

 

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: West of the rock and east of the hard place!
Posted by murph on Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:16 AM

I've never been the victim of political correctness relating to any of my builds that I'm aware of.  The only things that I've built that could be a target of PC thinking is anything related to the RCAF's 421 (Red Indian) and 422 (Tomahawk) squadrons, both now inactive.  The term Canuck is actually considered offensive to some Canadians but we proudly nicknamed our Canadian designed and built all weather interceptor, the CF-100, the Canuck.

Other RCAF squadrons with nicknames that might be considered derogatory to Canada's native people are 426 (Thunderbird) and 431 (Iroqouis) squadrons.  426 is currently active at 8 Wing and 431 is the world famous Snowbirds.  All four of these squadrons have had a long and distinguished history and service with the RCAF and I'm not aware of any indiginus people being offended by these nicknames.  As a matter of fact, because of their history in the face of advesity, the indiginous people might consider and associate with these squadron nicknames as a badge of honour.

As for those who would poo-pooh a model, display, diorama, etc in the name or political correctness, I feel sorry for them.  They're blind, wilfully or otherwise, to history.  They are only displaying their own ignorance with their comments.  If someobdy wants to badmouth one of my 421 or 422 Sqn aircraft in the name of political correctness, have at it.  You will not bother me one bit.  I choose to remember and honour history.  I may not agree with what some combattants did but what's done is done.

I have always liked this saying:

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Retired and living the dream!

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:40 AM

tankerbuilder

Ahh;

    I had my experience many years ago . I have mentioned it on this site . My Bismark and 'Butcher Bird" and a Jewish Community Center .

 It took me a long time to get over the ensuing personal scene that took place that day . Seems the venue was Jewish owned and three of the folks ( older ones , I might add ) were looking at the models and came to my models and had a gigantic hissy fit .

 Well, although miffed I removed the models from the competition because I noticed something on the arm of one of the complainers . You know of what I speak .

 You see , the emotional reverberations of that experience would cause anyone trauma of an emotional nature . Personally , I have had my own , so I then understood . I still hurt from having to withdraw over half of what I had on display and two items I had in competition .

 That said , P.C. bothers me  " Lest we Forget "               T.B.

 

 

 

That sounds more like the "social correctness" mentioned before. Now, in my humble opinion "SC" is not really an issue or a problem. It was nice of you to concede to their wishes, especially given what at least one of the complainers had to go through. I have no problem building models with swastikas, but I would hate for someone with his/her experiences to see it. Victims being emotionally affected by items associated with their attackers is one thing...if the media locked on to building WWII German models in general, that would be PC. What murph talks about would be PC. What you talk about would not. 

Could you give some more background about the incident though? Do you mean that there was a model competition at a JCC, and you actually brought a F.W. 190 with (I assume) a dorsal tail swastika? Tongue Tied

 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:47 AM

Tanks, I gather you are making a distinction between this "PC" idea and true emotion. As far as still being hurt, with all due respect, get past it.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2014
Posted by modelcrazy on Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:52 AM
I have been following this thread and its twists and turns from the start. TB's experience brings a question to my mind. While to some of the Allies, German or Japanese or even Italian subjects may be sensitive (not to me), is a replica of a Lancaster or B-17 touchy to a German audience or Enola Gay/Bockscar sensitive to a Japanese audience?
Steve

Steve

Building a kit from your stash is like cutting a head off a Hydra, two more take it's place.

 

 

http://www.spamodeler.com/forum/

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, November 19, 2015 12:08 PM

modelcrazy
I have been following this thread and its twists and turns from the start. TB's experience brings a question to my mind. While to some of the Allies, German or Japanese or even Italian subjects may be sensitive (not to me), is a replica of a Lancaster or B-17 touchy to a German audience or Enola Gay/Bockscar sensitive to a Japanese audience?
Steve
 

If it was and they complained, no doubt they would be told tough. And something along the lines of they started the war, so they should get over it.

But i wounder, TB, what would you have done if those guys had been Palistinan and your subject Israeli. Or if you had built some late 19th century US cavalry and those gentelman had been native Americans. The list is endless.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, November 19, 2015 12:45 PM

You took an FW-190 model to a JCC?

Really?

And you are surprised about the reaction you got?

Listen, about this PC nonsence, the problem is that the PC tends to usually be C.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Thursday, November 19, 2015 4:06 PM

GMorrison

You took an FW-190 model to a JCC?

Really?

And you are surprised about the reaction you got?

 

I know...

GMorrison

Listen, about this PC nonsence, the problem is that the PC tends to usually be C.

 

 

Sometimes true, it really depends on the situation. I think the distinction between politically and socially correct is an important one. When there are real people who should be offended, and honest people who care, that's socially correct. When it's a real or fake grievance that has been kept alive way past the time it should have faded, for the use of politicos and people who want to avoid logical debates, then that is politically correct.

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by Moff on Thursday, November 19, 2015 4:12 PM

modelcrazy

 

 
modelcrazy
I have been following this thread and its twists and turns from the start. TB's experience brings a question to my mind. While to some of the Allies, German or Japanese or even Italian subjects may be sensitive (not to me), is a replica of a Lancaster or B-17 touchy to a German audience or Enola Gay/Bockscar sensitive to a Japanese audience?
Steve

 

Don't display a B-17 at a Dresden survivor's reunion. 

 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Corpus Christi, Tx
Posted by mustang1989 on Thursday, November 19, 2015 5:26 PM

GMorrison

You took an FW-190 model to a JCC?

Really?

And you are surprised about the reaction you got?

Listen, about this PC nonsence, the problem is that the PC tends to usually be C.

 

I just read this part. Yeah that is gutsy.....

                   

 Forum | Modelers Social Club Forum (proboards.com) 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Thursday, November 19, 2015 7:00 PM

mustang1989

 

 
GMorrison

You took an FW-190 model to a JCC?

Really?

And you are surprised about the reaction you got?

Listen, about this PC nonsence, the problem is that the PC tends to usually be C.

 

 

 

I just read this part. Yeah that is gutsy.....

 

 

Probably not the term I would use.

So I gave it more thought, and yes I can think of a time in my life where I was sort of drenched in an unrealistic view of the world, by my mother. As a kid, I wanted to model Spitfires, Thunderbolts, Mustangs, Corsairs etc. Every Christmas I got Sealabs. Wright Flyers, DC-7s.

I think she meant well, and was trying to focus me on non-violent things, but as a parent I never put those kinds of limitations on my own child's interests.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:01 PM

The former president of our local IPMS chapter (and an office older with IPMS/USA) ran a hobby shop faily close to Tamiya USA'a HQ in Aliso Viejo and a while back Mr Tamiya himself came to visit the shop due to a number of factors, including the ones that I mentioned. During the conversation between the two gentlemen,, as it was relayed to me, the question of Tamiya making a B-29 kit was raised. Mr Tamiya said that his company would never produce a kit of the B-29. Considering the relation of his homeland and the B-29 I can understand his sentiment completely.

Not PC at all in my view. Simply a position that is quite easy to understand.

 

More Beer!Beer

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Friday, November 20, 2015 1:20 AM

Hello!

I'd also like to hear more about TB's adventure at the JCC. While I agree, that an outcome like this could have been expected, I really can't appreciate the thinking behind "being offended". Like I wrote before, I'm a strong supporter of the "If you don't like it, don't look" approach. Then, if I had a war-related trauma, would I want to see a model contest - that is if I knew models of military related subjects are the majority?

I'm not denying anybody their personal tragedy or the strong feelings they might have. At the same time I feel we should work for more freedom and understanding, and so we shouldn't scald other people, if they don't harm others, even if we don't like the aesthetics of what they do. I can understand tha gentleman who had a problem with TBs work, but I wouldn't call his actions "right".

Thanks for reading and have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

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Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Friday, November 20, 2015 6:46 AM

I heard this story and I can't blame the Holocaust survivor being offended. Have you ever attended a talk where a guest feature is a Holocaust survivor? I have. Pretty powerful stuff of the horrors they saw and went through. You can see the pain in their eyes and voices as they talk about it.

I think everyone should get an opportunity to listen to a Holocaust survivor guest speaker.

 

So a "if you don't like it, don't look at it" approach doesn't fly in the eyes of a Holocaust survivor - especially in a JCC.

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Posted by Moff on Friday, November 20, 2015 7:07 AM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

So a "if you don't like it, don't look at it" approach doesn't fly in the eyes of a Holocaust survivor - especially in a JCC.

 

Yes, I think his righteous indignation would have been more understandable if the model competition was somewhere other than a Jewish Community Center. Confused Like for example, if the F.W. 190 got removed because of the complaints, and the competition was being held in a firehouse or community hall, I would understand his anger more. 

BTW, where and when did you hear this guest speaker?

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

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Posted by Moff on Friday, November 20, 2015 7:26 AM

Pawel

I'm not denying anybody their personal tragedy or the strong feelings they might have. At the same time I feel we should work for more freedom and understanding, and so we shouldn't scald other people, if they don't harm others, even if we don't like the aesthetics of what they do. I can understand tha gentleman who had a problem with TBs work, but I wouldn't call his actions "right".

Thanks for reading and have a nice day

Paweł

 

While I don't agree with your assessment of 11 million non-combatants purposefully killed as being a "personal tragedy" or "war trauma", I agree with your second sentence there about freedom of expression and the responsibility to not smother other people. HOWEVER, the key part of this whole situation was that it was being held in a JCC. The people in charge of the JCC were the ones that had authority over the competition being held in their building. And from what I've heard, the models that TB brought to the competition clearly hurt someone. 

And he could have phrased things a little differently, like when he wrote that the survivor(s) had a "hissy fit". 

But let's not start a witch hunt over this...I know how easy it is (especially on forums) to start a big snowball of cyber-anger going. I'd like to continue talking about this, but let's not turn TB into Adolf Hitler while we're at it.

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

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Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 20, 2015 11:11 AM

I guess in a global sense anyone born before 1945 is a holocaust survivor. I've met many many people who escaped from Europe at that time, but I can't recall meeting anyone who survived say Auschwitz. Pawel no doubt has, living in Poland.

Back in 2009, in her senior year in HS, my daughter was in a production of Anne Frank, playing Mrs. Van Daan.

After the Saturday night production, a local citizen came and spoke of his experiences, as a student the same age as Anne, with her in HS. He himself was part of the movement to shield Jewish kids in Christian familes, and survived. He remembered her well, in particular as "a really good volleyball player". Such a mundane but human detail, it really struck me.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by Moff on Friday, November 20, 2015 11:46 AM

GMorrison

After the Saturday night production, a local citizen came and spoke of his experiences, as a student the same age as Anne, with her in HS. He himself was part of the movement to shield Jewish kids in Christian familes, and survived. He remembered her well, in particular as "a really good volleyball player". Such a mundane but human detail, it really struck me.

 

Wow. That is both beautiful and saddening. 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

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Posted by jtilley on Friday, November 20, 2015 11:59 AM

The hackneyed phrase "political correctness" usually, as I understand it, refers to the idea of taking a position on an issue not because one has really formed an opinion on it, but because of some sort of peer pressure. I think the term dates back to the Reagan administration, when lots of left-leaning liberals got accused of choosing sides in an effort to be "politicaly correct." Frankly I'm sick of the expression.

There's a difference between "political correctness" and common courtesy - especially when dealing with historical subjects. I hate whaling; I think it was, as practiced by Americans in the nineteenth century, cruel and barbaric. But I also recognize what a key part of the American economy whaling used to be, and I recognize that an important part of American culture sprang up around it. I don't have any inclination to build a model of a whaler or a whaleboat. But I think models of whaleships and whaleboats belong in museums; every comprehensive collection of ship models ought to include an American whaler. If I ran a whaling museum and a sperm whale came to visit - well, I'm not quite sure what I'd do. I'd probably discourage him or her from taking his or her children through the galleries.

Common courtesy calls on people to be civil to each other. I heard about a case at an IPMS convention years ago to which somebody brought a highly detailed diorama of a Nazi Party rally - complete with Nazi music blasting over a small PA system. A Jewish modeler told the organizers that he found it offensive. The organizers turned off the PA system. That strikes me as common courtesy.

I've spent my professional career teaching college students about some pretty awful events. The last thing I want my students to do is pretend such events as the Battle of Gettysburg or the Holocaust didn't happen. But when a modeler (or an author, or a TV talk show host) brings up such a subject with the deliberate intent of making somebody angry, an important line has been crossed.

Example. I think everybody in the U.S. ought to know what the Confederate flags looked like. I certainly think museums ought to exhibit Confederate flags. I also knew a high school student who knew virtually nothing about the Civil War, but fastened a Confederate flag to the roof of his car and drove it back and forth in front of the school office, for no other reason than to "yank the chain" of the assistant principal (who was Black). That sort of behavior, to my mind, is contemptible - and to defend it on the grounds that the perpetrator is trying to be "politically incorrect" is worse.

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Posted by Pawel on Friday, November 20, 2015 1:32 PM

Hello!

I agree with professor Tilley, that doing something with an intention to make somebody angry is just plain wrong.

At the same time I believe it's ultimately our responsibility if we get angry or not - it isn't easy, taking responsibility for that, but it can be done!

I'm living in Poland, but I can't say I've met a holocaust survivor. I probably did, but didn't have a chance to talk or listen to him or her. I have also never been to Auschwitz. A much smaller concentration camp was situated like 100 meters from where the family of my Grandfather lived - they were just everywhere... My grandfather was a slave labourer for five  long years and told me about it so many times, we even wrote a small book about it. I've also had an opportunity to talk with German veterans of WWII - one of them was drafted into the Luftwaffe at the age of 16. The other one served on the eastern front in an anti-armor SS unit.

They all had a nice and good life in comparison to the concentration camp victims, from what I've seen and read it was a horror beyond any imagination. In Polish schools they make sure that this point comes through.

But I also have another experience - in Poland, before 1989, we were under Soviet influence. The government tried to control most aspects of people's lives - and while it tried to promote model building as means to expand the skill and knowledge of the youth, building anything German or American was strongly discouraged. If you had a model of something German it could get vandalized by "unknown offenders" the minute you turned away. It was so good to have it change in 1989, but I'm still allergic when somebody tells me what to model and what not.

I believe a part of the problem here is the understanding for our hobby. If you put a swastika on a toy, it's offensive. If yo uput it on a museum quality historically accurate miniature it's something different. Sadly, most people see our models as "plastic toys".

Well, that's a bit longer than I intended it to - thanks a lot if you read this far and have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

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Posted by stikpusher on Friday, November 20, 2015 1:56 PM

GMorrison

I guess in a global sense anyone born before 1945 is a holocaust survivor. I've met many many people who escaped from Europe at that time, but I can't recall meeting anyone who survived say Auschwitz. Pawel no doubt has, living in Poland.

 

I would qualify that viewpoint regarding anyone alive in that era being a Holocaust survivor. Many people grew up far from the battle zones of WWII during the war without any more serious hardship than wartime rationing. My own parents for example were here in the Americas, too young for military service, and compared to those living at the same time in the war zones, had lives of peace and prosperaty.  A Hawaiian guy I knew who grew up on the islands during the war told many humurous tales of his boyhood some related to the war, some simply of life on the islands at that time. To him, fairly close to the war, it was just being a boy and life with a touch of adventurous things to see added.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

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N is for NO SURVIVORS...

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Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 20, 2015 2:07 PM

I suppose. I was thinking of the whole "crime against humanity".

One thing I do know, the Jewish world is very afraid of the Shoah being lost in the fog of history, and expend a great deal of effort to keep knowledge of it alive. The very real fear is that history will indeed repeat itself.

Thats why commenting on reactions to modeling subjects of that episode are hard to be negative about, and it sure isn't "PC" that drives them.

Look we are dancing around some pretty hot flames here.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by stikpusher on Friday, November 20, 2015 2:26 PM

Well, historically speaking, the Jewish peoples (because really they have been of varying ethnicities, Middle Eastern, African, and European) over the centuries have endured many pogroms and other such attacks upon their very existance from the local level of disorganized mobs to those organized by the Catholic Church in the Spanish Inquisition, and most frighteningly thorough Nazi Final Solution. Not talking the political side of the issue (which are plenty), but the hypothetical of had the war in Europe turned out longer or differently, the numbers would have been even higher or more complete. I think it is a very understandable viewpoint on the part of those to keep the lessons of that history alive. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

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N is for NO SURVIVORS...

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Posted by Moff on Friday, November 20, 2015 2:37 PM

Pawel

I believe a part of the problem here is the understanding for our hobby. If you put a swastika on a toy, it's offensive. If yo uput it on a museum quality historically accurate miniature it's something different. Sadly, most people see our models as "plastic toys".

 

 

VERY good point there sir!

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

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Posted by GMorrison on Friday, November 20, 2015 3:05 PM

Sort of. Wouldn't you call the JCC ahead of time and run this by them? If not, that suggests an interest in being confrontational.

Otherwise it seems to me to be ignorance of a sort, sorry TB. Which surprises me as I understand you were a refugee from German as a little kid.

I think John T. is spot on. Why is it any different than parking in front of a black church with a Confederate Battle flag flying on your van antenna? Maybe it's not and the argument is that it is "OK".

Then the problem becomes, how do the offended parties respond. Ignore it? Not fair to make that choice for them. That smells like intimidation.

Politely ask you to stop? Probably the best option, but don't call it "PC".

React violently? Our society can't survive that.

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by Moff on Friday, November 20, 2015 3:54 PM

GMorrison

Politely ask you to stop? Probably the best option, but don't call it "PC".

 

 

 

What in my mind distinguishes being polite ("social correctness"...I just love that term!) and PC is if the media gets involved. Especially if it's something the media has used before to garner attention/ratings/money/whatever. There is of course a place for the media, but it very quickly can (and usually will) become a lot of hype. 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

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Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Friday, November 20, 2015 4:26 PM

Moff

 

 
BlackSheepTwoOneFour

So a "if you don't like it, don't look at it" approach doesn't fly in the eyes of a Holocaust survivor - especially in a JCC.

 

 

 

Yes, I think his righteous indignation would have been more understandable if the model competition was somewhere other than a Jewish Community Center. Confused Like for example, if the F.W. 190 got removed because of the complaints, and the competition was being held in a firehouse or community hall, I would understand his anger more. 

 

BTW, where and when did you hear this guest speaker?

 

 

 

Back when I was a senior in high school in 1983. We had to take a mini courses in our senior year. One of them was on the Holocaust. The school invited Helen Sterling, a well known Holocaust survivor in my area. She is still very much alive to this day. My guess she is probably about 95 or 96 years old now AND still doing speaking tours in NY.

 

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Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Friday, November 20, 2015 4:30 PM

I would like to add it's not just Jews that died in the Holocaust. You have gypsies, invalids, gays, old, weak and the sick, women, children, etc... 

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Posted by stikpusher on Friday, November 20, 2015 4:38 PM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

I would like to add it's not just Jews that died in the Holocaust. You have gypsies, invalids, gays, old, weak and the sick, women, children, etc... 

 

Yes, anybody who did not fit the mold of the Master Race, either racially, idealogically, healthwise, etc. was to be exterminated as part of the Final Solution. Jews were the most numerous victims. But other groups and populations suffered the same round ups and fate.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

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Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, November 21, 2015 12:31 AM

Moff

 

 
GMorrison

Politely ask you to stop? Probably the best option, but don't call it "PC".

 

 

 

 

 

 

What in my mind distinguishes being polite ("social correctness"...I just love that term!) and PC is if the media gets involved. Especially if it's something the media has used before to garner attention/ratings/money/whatever. There is of course a place for the media, but it very quickly can (and usually will) become a lot of hype. 

 

PC is BS. It's as simple as that. It's an accusation invented by the post war Communists, simply a way to shout down disent absent real facts. Like has been said, it's the last resort of defense of rude behavior.

For all the criticism of the media, it is the one thing that keeps us together. The term "politically correct" was a Maoism, used to establish the lines inside of which one had to stay, otherwise face the wrath of the state.

Otherwise all we'd have is the Peoples Daily in China or in Russia Pravda (translation: The Truth).

It needs to be removed from the modern conversation. it really is fear mongering.

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by Moff on Sunday, November 22, 2015 4:59 PM

 

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

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Posted by Aaronw on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 2:56 PM

Something that seems to be missing from this discussion is that the general public often considers models to be toys. I don't think it is hard to understand the idea that offensive things (swastkas, confederate flags) don't need to be on toys.

Many of those who complain about a swastika on a model of a FW190 would never make the same argument about a restored FW190 in an air museum (sure there are some who would, you can always find someone to take up an argument).

 

The issue is getting people to see models as miniature historical displays, portable museums rather than toys.

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Posted by GMorrison on Wednesday, November 25, 2015 3:18 PM

Aaronw

Many of those who complain about a swastika on a model of a FW190 would never make the same argument about a restored FW190 in an air museum (sure there are some who would, you can always find someone to take up an argument).

Sure, like the people at the JCC. It makes no sense to me to take that there. It's completely insensitive, which gets back to the original post.

The OP question was not about making comments; that's anyones right to do, we all agree. It was about whether or not it was an act of Political Correct "ness".

 

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by Moff on Monday, November 30, 2015 11:46 AM

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

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Posted by BlackSheepTwoOneFour on Friday, December 4, 2015 2:34 PM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour
 
Moff

 

 
BlackSheepTwoOneFour

So a "if you don't like it, don't look at it" approach doesn't fly in the eyes of a Holocaust survivor - especially in a JCC.

 

 

 

Yes, I think his righteous indignation would have been more understandable if the model competition was somewhere other than a Jewish Community Center. Confused Like for example, if the F.W. 190 got removed because of the complaints, and the competition was being held in a firehouse or community hall, I would understand his anger more. 

 

BTW, where and when did you hear this guest speaker?

 

 

 

 

 

Back when I was a senior in high school in 1983. We had to take a mini courses in our senior year. One of them was on the Holocaust. The school invited Helen Sterling, a well known Holocaust survivor in my area. She is still very much alive to this day. My guess she is probably about 95 or 96 years old now AND still doing speaking tours in NY.

 

 

 

I just found this out this afternoon that the local Holocaust survivor Hellen Sperling has passed away today at the age of 95.

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20151204/NEWS/151209705

 

 

 

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Posted by JTRACING on Friday, December 4, 2015 5:44 PM

Has anyone built any isis dioramas yet? or do we have to wait for 70 years to pass by? 

or build a "death crash" version of any race car driver that died in the car, im sure there is many people that do build them but wouldn't share them on the Internet... 

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Posted by Moff on Saturday, December 5, 2015 7:28 AM

"Gaiety is the most outstanding feature of the Soviet Union." - Josef Stalin 

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Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, December 5, 2015 1:07 PM

Moff

And never mind about "The End" Big Smile

Glad you see it that way, Moff.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by Temujin on Saturday, December 5, 2015 1:22 PM

BlackSheepTwoOneFour

 

 Here's the sad thing, schools and colleges nowadays have become more politically correct themselves, it's scary.

 

 
 
See, this is the thing. Public places have to be PC. The volume of people makes the possibility to offend much greater. You never know what a person may be insulted by.
 
In the privacy of your own home, build 'em however you want, I say.
 
It's not as though we're hunched over the bench, putting these decals on while twisting our mustache and plotting world domination.
 
We modellers know there isn't any malice, just a love of their hobby.
 
And while I think the modelling community is probably more understanding/tolerant about this subject, I'd be careful if I was putting a model in a show. The odds are less likely, but it is a public place, and that needs to be taken into consideration.
 
 
 
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Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, December 5, 2015 2:25 PM

Context. A show at a hotel ballroom etc., probably unless the model is extremely distastefull, say a LED lit guy in an electric chair, good judgement is enough. German WW2 subjects at a JCC, no way.

A better term is socially correct. Society can't exist with bad behavior.

Today's definition of PC by you-know-who: don't be afraid to call the police on your neighbors if you don't like the way they look. Guys getting cardboard boxes in the mail....

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, December 5, 2015 4:20 PM

I would call it being polite, not socially correct. Think good manners. One would not go into a VFW bar, start spouting off support for the nations that those vets fought against and or bad mouthing the vets or their comrades in arms actions against those coutries in battle, and not expect a harsh reaction. That would not be good manners, not would it be wise.

The neighbor thing is a whole seperate issue in today's climate and certainly treads into the realm of politics. Which I would gladly discuss with you via PM my friend.Wink

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

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Posted by Bish on Saturday, December 5, 2015 5:28 PM

Temujin
 
BlackSheepTwoOneFour

 

 Here's the sad thing, schools and colleges nowadays have become more politically correct themselves, it's scary.

 

 

 

 
 
See, this is the thing. Public places have to be PC. The volume of people makes the possibility to offend much greater. You never know what a person may be insulted by.
 .
 

 
Sorry, but no they don't, and they are not. Free speech include the right to offend. If you don't have free speech in public, where do you have it.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

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Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, December 5, 2015 6:54 PM

Bish, your country has the great tradition of public oratory. But that occurs under very clear terms in the 1689 Bill of Rights. I think thats the right citation.

Free speech is often misunderstood, although I'm not pointing fingers.

The basic principle is that it's a human right, and the government, organization in which it occurs, or whatever, cannot inhibit that.

But it in no other way protects the speaker from the consequences of the statements they make.

Perhaps "have" is more in my mind "need", in the sense that in debate one owes their opponent the dignity to respect their point of view. Anything else can just be yelling.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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Posted by Bish on Saturday, December 5, 2015 7:11 PM
I agree, it does not protect the speaker, but the poi t is they have the right to make them. And if your going to make comments in public, then you should expect others to counter them and be prepared to defend them. I agree with your previous comments about taking certain models to the JCC. One has to use common sense and give due considerations to their feeling in there place. But I would disagree with Temujin's remark that the same should apply to model show in a public place.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

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Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, December 5, 2015 8:42 PM

Yep, rules run counter to common sense.

It's very strange. I watched my parents in the 50's, the concept of freedom to make their own choices seemed second nature. Granted they were upper middle class caucasians in a progressive state.

But golly, I feel now like we are forever being hemmed in by restrictions on behavior, as if thinking is too dangerous.

So in retrospect, maybe we can all fend off those restrictions if we make better choices in how we behave.

Hands around the world to promise to respect each other.

My father is in the final stages of dementia. He's reinvented himself as his southern mothers son in 1935. It's all about manners. Nothing he says makes much sense anymore in the present, but it's a steady stream of "what brings you to these parts", or "I'd show you around but it's difficult to get up", or he introduces me to his nurses every week as "an old friend of the family".

Strong foundations.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

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