Bakster

Rob Gronovius

Make an innocent comment and someone takes it the wrong way, usually not the person who built the model, but someone else who feels the need to defend the builder.

Hey Rob, I am chuckling. Not at you, but at that scenario. I have seen that very thing happen. I remember rolling my eyes and thinking, here we go! It's another flamer! Sure enough, it turned into an ugly thread. You are wise to do what you have learned.

I really like what Baron noted. We should have a section specific for people that want honest opinions. I think that is brilliant. That would knock down a lot of these discussions and misunderstandings. If anyone has some pull with FSM... it should be made so.

Out of all the modeling sites I have participated in, this one is the absolote worst when it comes to defending the builder against mean old rivet counters. There are dozens of awesome modelers who create works of art as well as very good modelers that create high quality builds, but don't you dare critique anyone's work for fear of the wrath of the membership.  Only "great jobs" are allowed.

The only exception is commission builds by Art Instructor shared by Model Maniac. For whatever reason, it's open season on that pair. Very artistic builds that are not often well constructed (i.e. misaligned parts, uneven finishes), but they look pretty good. Can't even tell him "good job" without someone else posting everything wrong with it.

Rob Gronovius

Out of all the modeling sites I have participated in, this one is the absolote worst when it comes to defending the builder against mean old rivet counters. There are dozens of awesome modelers who create works of art as well as very good modelers that create high quality builds, but don't you dare critique anyone's work for fear of the wrath of the membership.  Only "great jobs" are allowed.

The only exception is commission builds by Art Instructor shared by Model Maniac. For whatever reason, it's open season on that pair. Very artistic builds that are not often well constructed (i.e. misaligned parts, uneven finishes), but they look pretty good. Can't even tell him "good job" without someone else posting everything wrong with it.

Yeah, I hear you. There are many times that I don't post a subject for fear of being blind sided. That's the problem, people need to settle down and stay focused on the intended subject. Instead, people like to pull a word out of a sentence and turn it into a major deal. 

I really think Barons idea is the best solution for critiquing. That way, there can't be any complaints. Of course, there still will be, but it'd be difficult to justify attacking the critiquer if you asked for opinions. 

Well, there seems a difference between 'rivet counters' and the 'backseat-driver/joy-sucker' types. It's the latter that drives me up the wall, they're the type who never post anything they've built but tear into anyone else's work. They're the self-proclaimed 'world's greatest expert' on a subject but never build a model. Only one or two on this forum but I've seen herds of them on some others I've posted to.

Gamera

Well, there seems a difference between 'rivet counters' and the 'backseat-driver/joy-sucker' types. It's the latter that drives me up the wall, they're the type who never post anything they've built but tear into anyone else's work. They're the self-proclaimed 'world's greatest expert' on a subject but never build a model. Only one or two on this forum but I've seen herds of them on some others I've posted to.

 

That's funny, Gam. I know exactly what you are talking about. 

Rob,

I wouldn't put you in the rivet counter category at all. You have real knowledge of the subject you're commenting on. I don't mind constructive criticisms from you because I know they are coming from someone who knows and who is trying to be helpful, that's not a rivet counter to me, especially if I post something I am presenting as accurate. I don't have a clue about armor, so I expect and want some feedback when I'm bold enough to post one.

I have to admit, I'm one of the "good job" guys because I figure the builder has tried his best and is more critical than I am. They know what doesn't look good but I feel they need encouragement to continue to do better on each build. I should probably point things out, supposing that they didn't see the mistake themselves, but I just can't bring myself to do that, that's not me and that's OK. The world need all kinds. Too many people like me and we have the everybody gets a trophy scocity, too many the other way and most people would be too discouraged to continue..."why try?"

The world and every hobby NEEDS both, just not to the extreem either way.

Now like Forrest Gump would say "that's all I got to say about that" 

Sorry I got knocked off the site for awhile and did not think it would get this much feed back. There should be a forum called “Rivet Counters” this way is someone is looking for information, constructive critisism or Era/accuracy/replication they can post there models on that forum and then the door is wide open.

Personally— just telling me it looks good works. Even if it doesn’t :).  I just like to share what I did and hope people like it.  I love learning, read the forum, video’s magazines.  They are all very helpful.  So either way I just enjoy the hobby!  

Hope you all enjoy it too!

There are accuracy fanatics like me, who don't make it a point of judgement of others. It's just the way we see the world.

As a design professional, in the greater picture I encounter an annoying amount of sloppiness being passed off as "artistic license". 

But I'm a firm believer that as a hobby, it's whatever makes the modeler happy that matters. 

GMorrison

There are accuracy fanatics like me, who don't make it a point of judgement of others. It's just the way we see the world.

As a design professional, in the greater picture I encounter an annoying amount of sloppiness being passed off as "artistic license". 

But I'm a firm believer that as a hobby, it's whatever makes the modeler happy that matters. 

 

 

modelcrazy

Rob,

I wouldn't put you in the rivet counter category at all. You have real knowledge of the subject you're commenting on. I don't mind constructive criticisms from you because I know they are coming from someone who knows and who is trying to be helpful, that's not a rivet counter to me, especially if I post something I am presenting as accurate. I don't have a clue about armor, so I expect and want some feedback when I'm bold enough to post one.

I have to admit, I'm one of the "good job" guys because I figure the builder has tried his best and is more critical than I am. They know what doesn't look good but I feel they need encouragement to continue to do better on each build. I should probably point things out, supposing that they didn't see the mistake themselves, but I just can't bring myself to do that, that's not me and that's OK. The world need all kinds. Too many people like me and we have the everybody gets a trophy scocity, too many the other way and most people would be too discouraged to continue..."why try?"

The world and every hobby NEEDS both, just not to the extreem either way.

Now like Forrest Gump would say "that's all I got to say about that" 

 

I don't consider myself a rivet counter either, just very knowledgeable in certain areas of armor.  I see the good that they do, information they collect and forward has given us some high quality models.

Contrary to common belief here, rivet counters have fun counting rivets and recreating, scratchbuiliding, replicating even the tiniest of details. Just because you don't find it fun, doesn't mean they don't find it fun.

They do have a tendency to not be able to "power down", in other words, they have trouble not pointing out inaccuracies in other people's builds that they would have corrected in their own builds. Therein lies the "nitpicker" characteristic.

They aren't telling you that you are wrong, they are just looking at your build from their own point of view. If you're they type that strives to improve your skills and reach the next level of accuracy, then the tips are handy. If you are the type that just likes to build out of the box, then the critiques are over the top.

Personally, I tend to build both ways. For a modern armor piece, especially one in which I crewed, I try to recreate every detail. But for something like a WW2 German armor piece, I'm just as content to assemble it straight out of the box with only minor tweaks.

Rob Gronovius

 

 

Bakster

Rob Gronovius

Make an innocent comment and someone takes it the wrong way, usually not the person who built the model, but someone else who feels the need to defend the builder.

Hey Rob, I am chuckling. Not at you, but at that scenario. I have seen that very thing happen. I remember rolling my eyes and thinking, here we go! It's another flamer! Sure enough, it turned into an ugly thread. You are wise to do what you have learned.

I really like what Baron noted. We should have a section specific for people that want honest opinions. I think that is brilliant. That would knock down a lot of these discussions and misunderstandings. If anyone has some pull with FSM... it should be made so.

 

 

 

Out of all the modeling sites I have participated in, this one is the absolote worst when it comes to defending the builder against mean old rivet counters. There are dozens of awesome modelers who create works of art as well as very good modelers that create high quality builds, but don't you dare critique anyone's work for fear of the wrath of the membership.  Only "great jobs" are allowed.

The only exception is commission builds by Art Instructor shared by Model Maniac. For whatever reason, it's open season on that pair. Very artistic builds that are not often well constructed (i.e. misaligned parts, uneven finishes), but they look pretty good. Can't even tell him "good job" without someone else posting everything wrong with it.

 

Really Rob,not being confrontational here,but I myself have not noticed that,when I first came on 15 years ago here there was a lot of meanness for sure,but recently with a lot of old regulars moving on from the site,I thought a lot of that had gone away of course I dont see every response,but I thought it was pretty tame now.

Hi,

I guess one last couple things that I would note on "rivet counting" is that a) I think its admirable when someone trys very hard to research a topic to make his/her build as accurate as possible, but b) at the same time we have to remember that there is often very little information on some details, and as such c) in the end some areas will likely always be either speculation or best guesses, etc.

Specifically, I seem to recall reading not too long ago, in either "Buffaloes Over Singapore" or "Bloody Shambles" (I think) that as the Brewster Aircraft company struggled to scale up from small scale production to full fledge war footing, at least a few models of planes meant to be built to Dutch specs ending up being fitted with parts meant for either US or UK spec planes (specifically I think it had to do with canopies and other pieces of glazing).  I suspect that this may have in part been do to the fact that it likely didn't make sense to hold up delivering an airframe that may have been missing one or more small pieces when you had a stock of other similar (though slightly different) pieces available.

Additionally, especially during "frantic" periods, such as when the Soviet Uniion was reeling from the German Invasion during WWII, or perhaps close to the end of the war when Germany and Japan were both reeling from the allied onslaught, I suspect that record keeping may not have been 100% perfect on the many "minor" production line mods that may often occur when building stuff like planes and vehicles, and as such there could easily be variations in the details of what otherwise might have been notionally the same "variant" of whatever plane or vehicle being built.  

And in addition, field mods also could often occur that we may or may not have good records on, let alone things like paint schemes and specific colors used.  For instance, on another site that I sometimes frequent there was not too long ago a thread on the lack of information on the actual paint scheme of the battleships Rodney and Nelson during operations in the Mediterranean, which is kind of interesting in that they were major capital ships of a major combatant, during a pivotal time in the war, but actual information on their appearance is still very much up for debate.

As such, I'm very happy to see when people try and be as authentic as possible in their build, but at the same time I am also very happy to see when people either just try something that they think looks right and/or even if they try something completely different, as long as it makes them happy, as well.

PF

Hear Hear! 

Yeah Rob, I've always valued your advice. You might be a bit of a rivet counter but in a good way. 

As to the ones I have issues with: 

The main guy I was refering to before had a post about putting putty on some aircraft nose because he claimed it wasn't the right shape.  Claimed it was about a mm too narrow or something of that ilk. Gee friggin whiz! Like anyone will notice unless they carefully measure the thing, you can't eyeball it and tell.

And knocking anyone who built the kit without his modifications. Needless to say I don't recall him ever posting a finished model.

I haven't seen a post by him in over a year so hopefully he'll not get upset with me talking about him... 

So i started with a let me be me attitude NOW i have even further reason to stop the BS when it comes to rivet counting.  I started my fifth model an M3 Stuart.   The build went fine, as I’m finding Tamiya builds better than Meng, Dragon and Takom.  But I totally screwed up the paint.  I used Model Color 70.899. Which turned out to be BROWN not Olive drab.  I added 71.316 now I had a darker version of OB.   Sick to my stomach I used this as a mule.  Adding Tamiya panel Accent,every AK product you can think of and a nice matte finish.  Bottom line is I have a totally messed up Beautiful M3 Stuart which is now waiting for oil and mud.  

yes I agree that failure is the mother of invention—- but this kit is off the charts.  I will gladly present some photos when I am done.  But all my errors  made this a fun build!  ISn’t that whAt we are shooting for FUN!

Can you call it rivet counting if someone says they want to do a certain thing and you tell them it's not possible on that variant of aircraft?

There was an incident on the forum some time ago where a new member said he had an EF-111A kit and wanted to know what weapons he could hang on it to make it a Gulf War strike bird. Guy turned rather snarky when we told him it wasn't appropriate for that variant of F-111 (for the uninitiated The EF-111A is an unarmed Electronic Warfare aircraft). He proceeded to post pic after pic of various other F-111 variants with weps under the wings, with snarky captions like "hmmm, those look like munitions to me", and turned rather nasty when told they were other variants and not the EF-111 that he had. 

After that, I think he took his bat and ball and left, never to return. Oh well..

     I was gonna stay out of this one.....well I tried LOL.

      I have found my own experience to be if someone " counts rivets" on my model I let it go, it's my model, my research time,( which is at a premium and limited), my pocketbook is VERY thin, and my scratch building skills self admittedly SUCK! So to counter the counter I either never show the model again unless it is as a "table filler" or put the subject WAY on the back burner until said people forget about it the I finish it my way.

     As for the "overly nice" part of the topic....yes I think I'm overly nice at times. I do not know the posters ability, skill level, time to work, etc, so if that person thinks thier finished product is worthy of showing the TALENT that lingers here, then yes KUDOS to them. As most of you old timers know I barely finish a kit much less post pix. My ignorance and lazyness not fear of being criticized.

      It is a HOBBY! Probably the one and only thing many of us have in common. It's a HUGE angry world, " friends" here are a way to connect with people on a very small common topic without dragging everthing else with it.

    Sorry ladies and gents for the long post, it is a good morning.....so far. Lets build something

Fun is the key word here. Sometimes I start to obsess over little details and then I remember that no one is really going to see what I'm building. I've taken a stab at weathering recently and it's been far from perfect, but I still like the way the finished product looks.

In the couple of years I've been on this site, overall it seems like the vast majority of members are courteous people offering constructive support. Sometimes intent is misinterpreted or not expressed well in written word, so I tend to cut people some slack on forums such as this.

Modeling is an art, the finished piece is going on YOUR shelf, so build to your satisfaction. I just finished a Dragon Churchill Mk III AVRE. The access door is totally wrong on the kit out of the box. I don't feel I have the skill (yet!) to fix it, so I let it go. But I had a great time building it and I'm proud to have it on my shelf, glaring warts and all. 

I've also found that correcting manufacturing mistakes, making models "accurate" can be quite expensive. Take the cowel on Monogram's Skyraider. It's not correct, you can buy a resin replacement or just live with it. I'll live with it and put my money elsewhere. 

That said, 99.9% of the experts on this forum are helpful and generous with their knowledge. Please don't hold back for fear of being labeled a rivet-counter!

Joe

Models32466

I have ot built a model for 35 years, yet through this forum, you tube and various other media I am back with a vengence!  Just got my quick coupler to go between my Paasche VL 5.0 and Iwata Ecilspe 3.0.  I ordered 10 Models WWII tanks from the Sherman through the Panzer IV.  

I have built 3.5 models and loved every second of it!

I modulate, chip, Weather  and prime to the point of exhaustion.

But at the end of the day it comes down to a basic concept — What do I like and how am I going to express this model.  No wrong no right just what do I want to do!

Bottom line ——-“Are we having fun”!

 

thanks for all your help   It’s a blast

 

 

 

I thanked people for their help

I learned a lot

I had fun

But somewhere along the line this turned from a damn i’m Having fun thread to those damn “rivet counters”  Not my intention.

We are all having fun or we wouldn’t be doing this.  Hell I can’t figure out what colors to paint my Tamiya Panzer IV and would love some help.

So how about the thread goes back to the start—-

“Are we having fun yet” —-

Models32466

SO now that this reached 2 pages —Where did I ever mention ‘Rivet Counter” when i started this thread? 

Exactly my point that people need to stay on topic to the OP. And by that I mean-- don't pull a word or phrase from someones post and turn it into an issue. In your case--it was not even your post that started it. People need to move on and respect the OPs intent. All the nitpicking that goes on here is nonsense. 

Several months back I was lambasted for using a commonly used word to describe a feeling of being cheated. Rather than stay on topic--one fella decided that the word I had used was offensive. In some obscure reference it could be offensive to a people. My gosh! It got so bad that a moderator had to step in. Really?!!! It was an example of utter ridiculousness. That incident tainted me from posting certain topics. 

I am sorry that you became a casualty of this. Hopefully, it will be a learning moment and advance the forum in a better way. I'd have to say though--the banter in this thread has been pretty respectful of each other. So, at least you have that going for you.   In other threads I have seen name calling and I have had the priviledge of being on the receiving end of it.

Happy modeling.

Happy Modeling!

Well I'm having fun!  I should finish 2 planes this next week, a p-51 and a T-33.  Now I get the fun of deciding which item in my stash I'll work on next.

Falcon

Think I’m doing the Marder III by Tamiya.  Want to try snow effects. 

    32466, Panzer IVs were I believe after Feb. 1943 when the Reichmistrum put out a standing order to factory finish vehicles in "Panzer Yellow" , I believe the dicription of that color is similar to "What is OD Green" however it's a starting point. As for camo, I' m not sure if they came from factory or if it was field apllied. I do know that after Feb.1943 Maintenance companies as well as individual vehicles were issued tins of dark green and red brown padte that wete apllied by crews by what ever means required to get it done, thinning the paste with everything from desiel, to muddy stream water.

     I apologize to you for falling into the off point of your thread, kind of a habit I'm working on fixing. Anyeay hope my information spures a better answer or gets ya going in the right direction.

I usually spend my hobby time model railroading.  Because of a recent move by layout was dismantled and it'll be awhile if ever that it gets set back up.  In the meantime I decided to put together some scale models.  

In the mail from feebay is an mpc rupp roadster.  I *think* santa is bringing me a tamiya corsair as well.  I don't even have them yet but reading up on them and planning is fun anyway.  So I'm having fun yet. 

T e d

UnwaryPaladin

Take the cowel on Monogram's Skyraider. It's not correct,

What?? I didn't know that.

Welcome to the FSM forum, we suffer from the shinny object syndrome.

Models32466

SO now that this reached 2 pages —Where did I ever mention ‘Rivet Counter” when i started this thread? 

... 

Hi,

The only words of advice I can add here is something I once heard a long time ago (along the these lines or something similar);

"Threads on an internet forum are alot like children - you can bring them in to the world and try and guide them, but eventually they will grow and mature on their own, sometimes in ways that you may not fully want or intended them to.  But in the end they are what they are and become wnat they become and we all learn to live with that."

Happy Holidays

PF

Models32466

 

 

GMorrison

There are accuracy fanatics like me, who don't make it a point of judgement of others. It's just the way we see the world.

As a design professional, in the greater picture I encounter an annoying amount of sloppiness being passed off as "artistic license". 

But I'm a firm believer that as a hobby, it's whatever makes the modeler happy that matters. 

 

 

hi. What is a design professional?

 

I enjoy finishing my airplanes in metal foil. Sometimes I get nasty, subjective criticisms. "That is too shiny and totally unrealistic. No airplane would ever look like that. I would have used Alclad instead." My response is," Okay, lets see some of your airplanes. Post some pics". They never post any pics. Remember, there is only one person that a modeler needs to please. And that person is the person making the model. However, I do enjoy posting on FSM because I get a lot of really good constructive criticism.

Just a few comments about being an architect and how architects are immune to criticism. An architect generates a preliminary design of a building and the drawings are pinned to a wall. The entire design team and the head designer get to criticise the design. Most comments are helpful but some comments can be outright nasty: "How long did you spend on this design? Obviously not long enough because it's really stupid."  The design is revised and the new drawings are pinned to a wall. The team criticise the revised design and the process is repeated a number of times until the design is approved. Architects quickly become immune to subjective and objective criticism.