Mig, AK and other similar products

How many truly 'great' artists feel compelled to grind their own pigments and concoct their own colors from linseed oil and plant gums? Not many, I'd guess. As in any endeavor in life, the 'stuff' that gets used is/are just tools; it's what skill can be exercised in their use that counts.

It's a slightly 'sour grapes' patronizing attitude common to any field, when the 'old hands' see innovations and improvements they didn't have the luxury of using when they started out. [I'm in my '60s, so I'm fully qualified to make such judgments! ]

I think your observation about 'whatever makes life easier' is spot-on!

Well, the old modeler is making a completely pointless observation.

Bah!!! I'm all for anything that makes modeling easier and more pleasurable. I wonder if that guy made his own homemade cement?

There have been interesting discussion of these paints in the Painting and Airbrushing forum.

I see nothing wrong with what you bought, and or use. If you enjoy using them...then that is all that matters. This hobby is about enjoyment, and the pleasure of completing a build that you envisioned. Using a pre made wash or pigment takes time and practice to use correctly. Brush it off I say...don't let that kinda stuff get to you. Enjoy your new washes and pigments!

P.S. - AK has come out with weathering pencils and I plan on taking a closer look at buying some. Check out the video on YT...they look like they work great.

I'm still waiting for the day when I can buy a Tamiya kit, open it up, throw in some glue and paint, close the up the box, shake it all up, and "VOILA"!! Out comes a completely built and painted model! That's how easy I wished it could be!

Like Tojo, I don't get much free time to build my stash. Anything that makes it easier, that's GOOD!!

Gary Mason

By the way, Murphy, don't fret over it. Worrying never buys you anything (Matthew 6:25 - 27). Enjoy those pigments and washes!!

Build what you like, the way you like it.  That extends to products you use, too.

Having said that, I'll say that I don't use Mig's or AK products myself, because I do know how to make things like washes and weathering powders, and so on, and so, I don't feel like paying someone else for something I can whip up from materials I already have in my tool kit.  It's being Dutchy, as we say, frugal.

However, I wouldn't tell someone not to use them.  I concede that using such products certainly ensures a level of consistency in your results, especially for modelers who are new to the hobby and haven't learned how to make things like washes.  There is certainly something to be said for that.

The same goes for all of the aftermarket detailing kits, like resin cockpit interiors, or PE rails for ships.  Those products make a certain level of result accessible to more modelers, and if that means they enjoy the hobby more, that's what's important.

For people who really don't like using ready-made aftermarket products, you can always tell yourself that you're an out-of-the-box builder, or that you're following in Shep Paine's footsteps, if you scratchbuild everything.  That's great, too, if you enjoy what you're doing.

So again, build what you want, the way you want.

Murphy's Law

I was at my local hobby shop the other day and had a few Mig and AK products in my hand ( pigments, specific washes, etc.) When an old school modeler who is a regular in there gives me some ribbing over the products. He says that they are making it way too easy to weather and there aren’t many “real modelers” in the hobby anymore...

It occurs to me, too, that showing that attitude is something that discourages people from pursuing the hobby.  I bet that same oldtimer bitches about how so few people build models, and how local hobby shops have all died out, and he doesn't make the connection.

the Baron

 

 

Murphy's Law

I was at my local hobby shop the other day and had a few Mig and AK products in my hand ( pigments, specific washes, etc.) When an old school modeler who is a regular in there gives me some ribbing over the products. He says that they are making it way too easy to weather and there aren’t many “real modelers” in the hobby anymore...

 

 

 

It occurs to me, too, that showing that attitude is something that discourages people from pursuing the hobby.  I bet that same oldtimer bitches about how so few people build models, and how local hobby shops have all died out, and he doesn't make the connection.

 

Bet the old guy in the OP was upset when Guillow's introduced wooden airplane KITS. In his day, he's gnaw down a tree and chew away wverything that didn't look like an airplane

ajlafleche

Bet the old guy in the OP was upset when Guillow's introduced wooden airplane KITS. In his day, he's gnaw down a tree and chew away wverything that didn't look like an airplane

He's not worth the time of day to even worry about.

Now, that comment seems a bit harsh.  For all you know, without knowing him, he might have had a bad day. It couild also be that he's a bit envious of the tools you have available these days.  He might also feel a bit intimadated with all these products that are out now.  I see things on the shelf that I have no idea what they are and because they have labels in another language and printed in small type, there could be a problem that he doesn't know how to handle or because of frustration, can't ask for help.  His frustration might also be embarrased to ask and wishes for the simplistic days.  

He might also think that because of all this new, unfamiliar stuff, he is at an a disadvantage that he can't overcome when it comes to contests.  

Next time start a conversation with him.  Ask if he's ever tried the products and if you can, explain how to use them, you might start up a new friendship.  It may take a little effort on your part,but at least try.  Remember someday you might be in the same situation.  Wouldn't you want some help too?

By the way, before someone asks me, I'll be 68 next month ande have been building sdince I was 5, and yes sometimes I'm also intimidated by all the new stuff and most of hte time I let it just sit on the shelf.

I agree with the old chap, but not for the reasons he stated. I use AK and MIG washes but I also understand they're not a net positive for hobby and may even damage it in the long term. I am by no means saying you shouldn't use the right tool for the right job and some of these washes will fit that for ease of use or effect you get. So I'm not trying to piddle on any one's parade here, just voicing an opinion.

All these fancy washes and techniques tend to make models look very similar. Most of the time they're used in the same ways on the same rough models and you get a model where you can't tell who made it. It's just generic 2015-2020 era model of whatever variety it is. You look at it and it's a model that looks good to everyone but is loved by no one to put it in rather flowery terms. When I see a model like that I don't have any real problems with it, but I also have no real reason to tell someone "You have to see THIS model". If everyone is using the same tool set to do the same job, it's all a bit middle ground. I know it's easy, I know it's your kit to do what you want with it, but if I would still like to see some personality in it. Give me a reason to oogle your kit instead of everyone else's kit.

I also fear it does harm the hobby's ability to do things or even what it is acceptable to do. Lost knowledge is a real problem and as some of the older chaps die off we lose their knowledge. If all of the young 'uns are only learning how to do weathering effects with commercial products, we lose knowledge in how to do things in other ways which may give better results some times. How many generations down the line do we end up with Games Workshop's "I slap paint on and it does a mediocre job but that's acceptable because everyone else is" current range of contrast paints? I'm just not a fan of that kind of mentality. I like models as models, I also like models as game pieces but since I invest so much time and effort into my hobbies, I'd like others to do the same. To me it's about respect for the hobby you're investing your time and effort into. If I want a hobby full of beautiful models, dynamic dioramas and people putting their hearts into pieces I have to at least try to meet those standards. I always want to push myself to be that 1 step above where I was last kit and find people better than me to try and match. Not every piece can be that advanced and some times you do need a quickie, easy kit to refresh after a difficult or long build. That's where I think these different commercial products shine. When you just want something done, to not think about it too much and enjoy the ride. I don't want that to become the defacto way people build models though and that's why I agree with this guy.

Model building has become easier, much much easier. Most kits now fit together almost perfectly and you can build them to near perfection with even the most basic of skills. And that's not a bad thing, it gets more good kits out there and more people to give the hobby a chance. I don't personally value quantity over quality in my hobbies though. When I see a modeler like Scale Model Workshop I see an incredibly talented model builder who I could probably never hope to compare to. I wish I could be as good as him and I always find his videos informative and interesting. But then I go on some forums and I see stacks and stacks of snapfit kits with barely any effort put into them getting a high amount of praise and very little useful feedback. I contrast the two and I don't see how the current generation of builders can ever become the elite SMW is because the environment isn't encouraging the same level of hard graft to truly understand a model kit. How many years are we off from 3D printing becomes a real player in the home model kit building market and we all look like prats for gluing kits together, filling them with putty and sanding them for hours and hours? Are those basic skills we now consider the very lowest tier going to become an elite skill set where the next generation admire a standard builder today as I admire SMW's dedication to panel line scribing? 40 years ago being able to correct a kit's warping and get really good piece alignment would be the difference between a model kit builder and a kid mucking around. The same way a kid might kick a ball around his garden, but he's not a footballer in the same way as someone playing in the world cup is. They're both similar things yet on very different levels.

The guy was clearly being rude, but we're all used to poor social skills in this hobby. I still think he has a valid point and I wonder how many of us will end up as that guy 20 years from now when people are 3D printing entire models, applying a commercial pin wash and calling it done. I suspect quite a few of us might get our backs up when they enter our backyards and claim they're model builders the same way we are. The hobby keeps changing drastically every decade and some of us will get left behind and be telling kids to get off of our lawn while others enjoy the next version of this hobby and adapt to it.

Robotism

I agree with the old chap, but not for the reasons he stated. I use AK and MIG washes but I also understand they're not a net positive for hobby and may even damage it in the long term. I am by no means saying you shouldn't use the right tool for the right job and some of these washes will fit that for ease of use or effect you get. So I'm not trying to piddle on any one's parade here, just voicing an opinion.

All these fancy washes and techniques tend to make models look very similar. Most of the time they're used in the same ways on the same rough models and you get a model where you can't tell who made it. It's just generic 2015-2020 era model of whatever variety it is. You look at it and it's a model that looks good to everyone but is loved by no one to put it in rather flowery terms. When I see a model like that I don't have any real problems with it, but I also have no real reason to tell someone "You have to see THIS model". If everyone is using the same tool set to do the same job, it's all a bit middle ground. I know it's easy, I know it's your kit to do what you want with it, but if I would still like to see some personality in it. Give me a reason to oogle your kit instead of everyone else's kit.

I also fear it does harm the hobby's ability to do things or even what it is acceptable to do. Lost knowledge is a real problem and as some of the older chaps die off we lose their knowledge. If all of the young 'uns are only learning how to do weathering effects with commercial products, we lose knowledge in how to do things in other ways which may give better results some times. How many generations down the line do we end up with Games Workshop's "I slap paint on and it does a mediocre job but that's acceptable because everyone else is" current range of contrast paints? I'm just not a fan of that kind of mentality. I like models as models, I also like models as game pieces but since I invest so much time and effort into my hobbies, I'd like others to do the same. To me it's about respect for the hobby you're investing your time and effort into. If I want a hobby full of beautiful models, dynamic dioramas and people putting their hearts into pieces I have to at least try to meet those standards. I always want to push myself to be that 1 step above where I was last kit and find people better than me to try and match. Not every piece can be that advanced and some times you do need a quickie, easy kit to refresh after a difficult or long build. That's where I think these different commercial products shine. When you just want something done, to not think about it too much and enjoy the ride. I don't want that to become the defacto way people build models though and that's why I agree with this guy.

Model building has become easier, much much easier. Most kits now fit together almost perfectly and you can build them to near perfection with even the most basic of skills. And that's not a bad thing, it gets more good kits out there and more people to give the hobby a chance. I don't personally value quantity over quality in my hobbies though. When I see a modeler like Scale Model Workshop I see an incredibly talented model builder who I could probably never hope to compare to. I wish I could be as good as him and I always find his videos informative and interesting. But then I go on some forums and I see stacks and stacks of snapfit kits with barely any effort put into them getting a high amount of praise and very little useful feedback. I contrast the two and I don't see how the current generation of builders can ever become the elite SMW is because the environment isn't encouraging the same level of hard graft to truly understand a model kit. How many years are we off from 3D printing becomes a real player in the home model kit building market and we all look like prats for gluing kits together, filling them with putty and sanding them for hours and hours? Are those basic skills we now consider the very lowest tier going to become an elite skill set where the next generation admire a standard builder today as I admire SMW's dedication to panel line scribing? 40 years ago being able to correct a kit's warping and get really good piece alignment would be the difference between a model kit builder and a kid mucking around. The same way a kid might kick a ball around his garden, but he's not a footballer in the same way as someone playing in the world cup is. They're both similar things yet on very different levels.

The guy was clearly being rude, but we're all used to poor social skills in this hobby. I still think he has a valid point and I wonder how many of us will end up as that guy 20 years from now when people are 3D printing entire models, applying a commercial pin wash and calling it done. I suspect quite a few of us might get our backs up when they enter our backyards and claim they're model builders the same way we are. The hobby keeps changing drastically every decade and some of us will get left behind and be telling kids to get off of our lawn while others enjoy the next version of this hobby and adapt to it.

 

Learning how to properly thin something allows you a much wider range of results with it. If you're just grabbing a bottle and applying it you could get a bad batch, your bottle could be old and changed consistancy or maybe they changed the recipe/color and now your new bottle doesn't match the old one. Games Workshop used to release pre-thinned really rich washes a lot of people used for their miniatures, they had hundreds of models painted with them. With constrasts introduction they stopped producing that line and everyone scrambled to buy up the last ones to keep painting the army in a consistent way. They could make exactly the same thing with other products but never learned to mix inks and thin them so they had no choice but to hope they didn't run out of wash before models to paint. But those who had been used to thinning paints and could recreate them shrugged and carried on as before. It's a small example but it's a domino effect in the long run where you're reliant on outside forces to keep what you need going. I would hate to have a kit half way done, need some more streaking grime only to see they made it slightly more red and now I have a model in two mismatched halves.

Robotism

Learning how to properly thin something allows you a much wider range of results with it. If you're just grabbing a bottle and applying it you could get a bad batch, your bottle could be old and changed consistancy or maybe they changed the recipe/color and now your new bottle doesn't match the old one. Games Workshop used to release pre-thinned really rich washes a lot of people used for their miniatures, they had hundreds of models painted with them. With constrasts introduction they stopped producing that line and everyone scrambled to buy up the last ones to keep painting the army in a consistent way. They could make exactly the same thing with other products but never learned to mix inks and thin them so they had no choice but to hope they didn't run out of wash before models to paint. But those who had been used to thinning paints and could recreate them shrugged and carried on as before. It's a small example but it's a domino effect in the long run where you're reliant on outside forces to keep what you need going. I would hate to have a kit half way done, need some more streaking grime only to see they made it slightly more red and now I have a model in two mismatched halves.

 

No, I think they offer good options which you couldn't get other wise. I'm a big fan of garage kits and optional parts that let you take kits in directions they couldn't other wise be taken.

Robotism

No, I think they offer good options which you couldn't get other wise...

If you follow your argument about the washes, then you must concede that PE and aftermarket have precisely the same effect on a modeler's skills.  PE and aftermarket resin detail sets provide things that a generation or two ago, we'd have scratchbuilt ourselves.  Go back and read Shep Paine's books or his diorama tip brochures.  There was no PE or aftermarket then.  He scratchbuilt the details he added to his models.

So, if prepackaged washes or weathering powders lead to an atrophy of skills, so do PE and resin detail sets.

I see where you're coming from and I did mention something similar in SMW. If we follow that line of thinking to it's base then we're going to get to "Why are you buying plastic kits? Why aren't you taking a block of wood and making your own model out of it?" Cutting thousands of tiny pieces of card and attaching them instead of using photo etch seems like a huge waste of time with a large margin of error always looming over you. Learning to mix and thin different kind of paints isn't 10 hours of constant tedious work and is a skill useful beyond just that single kit. To me the add on parts are still the fundamental process happening, having to modify kits to use them or adding additional detail. It skips a lot of the really time consuming busy work to keep the build moving. Mixing paints takes a couple of minutes to get the basics down and opens up a whole new world of painting techniques and methods. I would consider that more of a fundamental skill to have, where as scratch building is more of an advanced technique. But maybe that's my perspective because the "Skill decline" hit my generation of modelers and I'm already 1 step below what the last generation thought of as fundamental.

Robotism

I see where you're coming from and I did mention something similar in SMW. If we follow that line of thinking to it's base then we're going to get to "Why are you buying plastic kits? Why aren't you taking a block of wood and making your own model out of it?" Cutting thousands of tiny pieces of card and attaching them instead of using photo etch seems like a huge waste of time with a large margin of error always looming over you. Learning to mix and thin different kind of paints isn't 10 hours of constant tedious work and is a skill useful beyond just that single kit. To me the add on parts are still the fundamental process happening, having to modify kits to use them or adding additional detail. It skips a lot of the really time consuming busy work to keep the build moving. Mixing paints takes a couple of minutes to get the basics down and opens up a whole new world of painting techniques and methods. I would consider that more of a fundamental skill to have, where as scratch building is more of an advanced technique. But maybe that's my perspective because the "Skill decline" hit my generation of modelers and I'm already 1 step below what the last generation thought of as fundamental.

 

the Baron

  

That's why I say, I won't use the products myself, but I won't discourage someone who wants to from using them.  As long as they're building, that's the important thing.

 

I agree with you Baron.  As long as we are building, we have things to enjoy.

Isn't it to a degree just the changing of the hobby?  I remember being taught to drive in the 70s and my Dad said you will learn to use a stick as the automatic transmissions are just junk...  If your wife wants to paint the bathroom you don't go and buy just the primary colors and mix the shade she wants if they already have it made.

For all the new "shortcuts" we have, we certainly don't seem to have a shortage of new kits and products.  I don't see these products detracting from the hobby.  Now I see where we could say that the areas of focus are changing.  More people are working on weathering than used to perhaps?  Just my .02.

John