Recasting: Morals or Money?

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeff Herne You mean your real name isn't Zokissima? That's ok, I'm really not Jeff, I'm Zytron, ruler of the Universe... Just...a...little...humor...(with the emphasis on "little")

Well, it was but all sorts of fatissima, bratissima, and various other conjugations suh as @$$issima just didn't go over to well, so I thought I'd keep it as a good nickname, and change my real one

One other thing about this initial post that has puzzled me as well, and it has been brought up and described by those on this board that are involved heavily in this industry, but how exactly can one hope to make a seven digit profit out of acquainting two groups only? Mething you may have to be a little more involved than just the provisional introductory 'hello' from one group to the other.
IMO, if you're asking yourself whether or not this is right, hey, at least it shows SOME moral obligation, so think very carefully what you chose.
If you don't care...well...then this thread is just more fluff to justify your imorality.
We are all going in endless circles here. Point is, this isn't about scratchbuilding, making masters, casting or recasting for your own use, or your personal friends. This thread asks the question is it right to introduce two groups that their only purpose is to illegitimately copy and sell, for profit, without royalties, work that does not belong to them.
As a matter of morality, you do what you will, and justify or don't, to yourself however you will.
As a matter of law, it IS illegal, and even though you are not taking any direct action, you do have direct knowledge, and implicit action to further this illegal cause, thus you're as guilty as the guy copying the mould or whatever.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Erik Bultz QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk QUOTE: Originally posted by Erik Bultz QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk Guy Montag, you can rationalize how clean your hands are all you want, but what you are suggesting is still illegal, unethical, and immoral. You, as a facilitator, are just as guilty as the people pouring the resin and selling the pirated kits. Pirating. Bootlegging. Crime. And you are considering becoming a part of it. You are considering becoming a criminal. Don't kid yourself, because that is in fact what you would be. A criminal. A criminal, your hands stained with the blood of a hobby you helped kill. Sleep well, Guy! Hwy Hulk I can rember in a post some tim ago that you were gonna find someway to reproduce the 1/72scale C-5 Galaxy! So In a way of saying then that must make you a criminal Anayways I've started to make from scratch my own 1/72 scale Resin C-141a and c-141b starlifters from scratch!!! Yeah I sad scratch! I Just wanna know how do you go about protecting your work Cause my kit will be the only kit available next to the Inaccurate kit of combat models I'm also planning on making a 1/72 c-5 galaxy out of resin!!! So it is probably gonna be 6months before I put my c-141 line into production!!! Huh? You've obviously got me confused with someone else, Bultz! I do not appreciate your attempt to portray me as a hypocrite. I've never mentioned or have been interested in "reproducing" a 1/72 C-5. Posts I've made in the past were about trying to find a 1/144 Otaki C-5A, which I finally did, about a year ago. But as Zen said, if I did scratchbuild a 1/72 C-5 and then made and marketed it as as a kit, then it's NOT a recast, but a perfectly legitimate kit. No crime. You could do the same. Unless of course those crazy copyright laws go into effect, and then Lockheed will shut you down! OH CRAP I MADE A BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE THE WRONG BRIAN!!!! I'm sorry if I Got you pissed off!!

No problem, Erik. Just make sure that before you post something you know what you're talking about, and try to take into account how people might feel about what you say. As you can tell from my posts in this thread, I am vehemently against recasting, so your incorrect comments suggesting that I had previously posted about doing anything remotely like recasting was very inappropriate (and absolutely untrue). It would take a lot more than just that comment to "piss me off," but you've gotten a lot closer than anyone else at FSM to doing it!

Just put a little more thought into what you're posting and you'll be just fine.
Also, could you take it easy with the exclamation marks just a little? I always feel like you're shrieking hysterically at me!

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk QUOTE: Originally posted by Erik Bultz QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk Guy Montag, you can rationalize how clean your hands are all you want, but what you are suggesting is still illegal, unethical, and immoral. You, as a facilitator, are just as guilty as the people pouring the resin and selling the pirated kits. Pirating. Bootlegging. Crime. And you are considering becoming a part of it. You are considering becoming a criminal. Don't kid yourself, because that is in fact what you would be. A criminal. A criminal, your hands stained with the blood of a hobby you helped kill. Sleep well, Guy! Hwy Hulk I can rember in a post some tim ago that you were gonna find someway to reproduce the 1/72scale C-5 Galaxy! So In a way of saying then that must make you a criminal Anayways I've started to make from scratch my own 1/72 scale Resin C-141a and c-141b starlifters from scratch!!! Yeah I sad scratch! I Just wanna know how do you go about protecting your work Cause my kit will be the only kit available next to the Inaccurate kit of combat models I'm also planning on making a 1/72 c-5 galaxy out of resin!!! So it is probably gonna be 6months before I put my c-141 line into production!!! Huh? You've obviously got me confused with someone else, Bultz! I do not appreciate your attempt to portray me as a hypocrite. I've never mentioned or have been interested in "reproducing" a 1/72 C-5. Posts I've made in the past were about trying to find a 1/144 Otaki C-5A, which I finally did, about a year ago. But as Zen said, if I did scratchbuild a 1/72 C-5 and then made and marketed it as as a kit, then it's NOT a recast, but a perfectly legitimate kit. No crime. You could do the same. Unless of course those crazy copyright laws go into effect, and then Lockheed will shut you down!

OH CRAP I MADE A BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE THE WRONG BRIAN!!!! I'm sorry if I Got you pissed off!!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Erik Bultz QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk Guy Montag, you can rationalize how clean your hands are all you want, but what you are suggesting is still illegal, unethical, and immoral. You, as a facilitator, are just as guilty as the people pouring the resin and selling the pirated kits. Pirating. Bootlegging. Crime. And you are considering becoming a part of it. You are considering becoming a criminal. Don't kid yourself, because that is in fact what you would be. A criminal. A criminal, your hands stained with the blood of a hobby you helped kill. Sleep well, Guy! Hwy Hulk I can rember in a post some tim ago that you were gonna find someway to reproduce the 1/72scale C-5 Galaxy! So In a way of saying then that must make you a criminal Anayways I've started to make from scratch my own 1/72 scale Resin C-141a and c-141b starlifters from scratch!!! Yeah I sad scratch! I Just wanna know how do you go about protecting your work Cause my kit will be the only kit available next to the Inaccurate kit of combat models I'm also planning on making a 1/72 c-5 galaxy out of resin!!! So it is probably gonna be 6months before I put my c-141 line into production!!!

Huh? You've obviously got me confused with someone else, Bultz!
I do not appreciate your attempt to portray me as a hypocrite.
I've never mentioned or have been interested in "reproducing" a 1/72 C-5. Posts I've made in the past were about trying to find a 1/144 Otaki C-5A, which I finally did, about a year ago.

But as Zen said, if I did scratchbuild a 1/72 C-5 and then made and marketed it as as a kit, then it's NOT a recast, but a perfectly legitimate kit. No crime. You could do the same.
Unless of course those crazy copyright laws go into effect, and then Lockheed will shut you down!

QUOTE: Originally posted by Erik Bultz Hwy Hulk I can rember in a post some tim ago that you were gonna find someway to reproduce the 1/72scale C-5 Galaxy! So In a way of saying then that must make you a criminal Anayways I've started to make from scratch my own 1/72 scale Resin C-141a and c-141b starlifters from scratch!!! Yeah I sad scratch! I Just wanna know how do you go about protecting your work Cause my kit will be the only kit available next to the Inaccurate kit of combat models I'm also planning on making a 1/72 c-5 galaxy out of resin!!! So it is probably gonna be 6months before I put my c-141 line into production!!!

If you are doing it from SCRATCH it is not the same as taking existing parts and making copies of them now is it??

Nothing against multiple versions of the same item out there, but when people COPY other peoples hard work and try to pass it of as their own ...

So I reckon do a bit more studies before trying to sound cute on here.

QUOTE: Originally posted by J-Hulk Guy Montag, you can rationalize how clean your hands are all you want, but what you are suggesting is still illegal, unethical, and immoral. You, as a facilitator, are just as guilty as the people pouring the resin and selling the pirated kits. Pirating. Bootlegging. Crime. And you are considering becoming a part of it. You are considering becoming a criminal. Don't kid yourself, because that is in fact what you would be. A criminal. A criminal, your hands stained with the blood of a hobby you helped kill. Sleep well, Guy!

Hwy Hulk I can rember in a post some tim ago that you were gonna find someway to reproduce the 1/72scale C-5 Galaxy! So In a way of saying then that must make you a criminal Anayways I've started to make from scratch my own 1/72 scale Resin C-141a and c-141b starlifters from scratch!!! Yeah I sad scratch! I Just wanna know how do you go about protecting your work Cause my kit will be the only kit available next to the Inaccurate kit of combat models I'm also planning on making a 1/72 c-5 galaxy out of resin!!! So it is probably gonna be 6months before I put my c-141 line into production!!!

Business Ethics 101 people, taking someone's time/talent/thought/treasure and "re-boxing" it as your own is just wrong. Facilitating this in any way is wrong. We can be as morally relativistic as we like, but some things are just plain ethically wrong. Ya, I guess I will have to pay a little more the "real" thing but at least I am paying the person(s) who actually produced the item. I hated record piracy in the seventies, VHS piracy in the eighties working at a record store. Guy, I'm sorry, but no amount of money, if you do go about this is ethically "clean"....please rethink what you want your legacy to be.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ajlafleche Real names vs screen names is not the issue here. You have a person who is looking to rip off an artist for his own personal gain. This is not using a painting as a guide for a figure, which is borderline or producing an object almost he same thing as a novel idea. No, this is taking an original piece of art and making an identical item from it and selling it to undercut the original and steal potential profit from the artist and the company with which he/she negotiated a deal to sell a product.

I have to agree 100%, Al. Which brings me to the following.

QUOTE: Originally posted by ajlafleche The pirates and thieves are doing nothing but saving me a few bucks, just like the scabs who cross picket lines to bust labor unions and their actions.

Just what does this have to do with a criminal activity??
Hmmmm, let's see if I've got this right. A person or persons, unknown to any of us, can buy a product designed, molded and legally licensed to another person/persons, make their own molds and cast as many as they wish for sale on the public market and not pay anything to the original artist!!! OR a man can go to work at a job, as a non-union member, to pay his bills and feed his family and that makes him the same kind of person???
I guess I'm just too much of a redneck to understand your logic.

One thing that people using, or advocating pirate goods don't seem to realise is that they are affecting someones livelihood by doing so.
May it be the sculptors, design creators, etc.

Buyers of pirate goods(recasts) willingly make do with an inferior copy and their enjoyment of the Hobby.
In severe cases pirated goods might even involve things like brake-shoes, etc and here you start playing with your own and possibly other peoples lifes.

I am all for open surce software as this was created to be shared and often tends to be of superior quality to licensed software.
But most pirated goods are a gamble.

Seen too many guys buy a pirated kit only to ditch it and than buy the original and in the end they paid a LOT for trying to save a few bucks.

Real names vs screen names is not the issue here. I have on-line friends who only post under a screen name and others who use a screen name with a real name easily accessible. Sabot is one of them. That's irrelevant to the discussion at hand,

You have a person who is looking to rip off an artist for his own personal gain. This is not using a painting as a guide for a figure, which is borderline or producing an object almost he same thing as a novel idea. No, this is taking an original piece of art and making an identical item from it and selling it to undercut the original and steal potential profit from the artist and the company with which he/she negotiated a deal to sell a product.

Guy and his cohorts/co-conspirators are looking to steal income from an artist, a distributor and a retailer who will provide us with legitimate product and advice.
I ain't too happy with paying over $30 US for a new (or old) Pegaso figure, but I'll do it to support the people who are providing me with new and exciting subjects to paint.

The pirates and thieves are doing nothing but saving me a few bucks, just like the scabs who cross picket lines to bust labor unions and their actions.

Oh my gosh, Zokissima (if that IS your real name)! LOL! I can see how what i wrote might be taken that way and I am so very sorry for it. That is not how I meant it! Far, far from it! It just bugged me about how the author who started the thread said something to the effect of how he's not using his real name and you should never use it in a public forum. It bothered me because (IMHO) that's indicative of someone who not only will not but cannot be forthcoming and to me it tells me just how much a person can be trusted. In his case, I'd have to say it wall fall somewhere between "little" and "none". I'm sure he's a decent guy who has loved ones and would help a guy on the street if they needed it but I've always felt if you want others to be honest with you, you have to be honest with them. The same holds true for love, friendship, etc. If a person can't be upfront then I'm not sure how I can be expect to trust and respect them.

We all have various screen names here on the FSM account and I think we're all about 99.999% willing to use our real names in our signature. The remaining .001% would be that gentleman. In no way did I mean that anyone who doesn't use their real name is less of a person.

Eric

When a person who is looking to make a lot of money in an ideal and has a problem in the law with it but justifies it to himself at every angle. This person then should give up on the ideal due to its wrongful acts. Man can and does justify wrong in order to make a profit. Wrong is wrong and right is right no matter how you cut it. I personally would not do this type of action no matter how profitable it is and Guy I think you ought to walk away from this before you get caught in a trap you can't get out. Honesty no matter how painful is the best policy; in this you can hold your head high knowing that you did the right thing. Digger

I don't think anybody is saying you're less of a person for using a nickname. All I meant by my comment is that I use my real name, and I have no problem with that. What you do is up to you.

I find the whole "privacy" issue a bit comical. Here's a for instance: I work as an estimator for a printing company. As a matter of policy we like to get as much information as possible at the time of estimate. That way if it is a successful bid, then we already have contact names, phone and fax numbers, etc. We also insure that our competitors aren't trying to pull a fast one on us (it's happened before!). I had a guy phone up wanting a price, when I asked him for the contact info he flipped out claiming the Privacy Act of Canada protects him from having to submit that to me. I said, whatever, how do I get hold of you? So I get his phone number. I google it, and come up with a website for a realtor in the next town. Now I have his full name, company name, address, phone, fax, email, the whole enchilada. He even has pics of his wife and teenage daughter online. And he's worried about privacy?

And Jeff, you can't be Zytron, Ruler of the Universe. I am!

Usurper!!

You mean your real name isn't Zokissima?

That's ok, I'm really not Jeff, I'm Zytron, ruler of the Universe...

Just...a...little...humor...(with the emphasis on "little")

Hey, it's an interesting thread, I say let it go.

But on the same note, I agree with Eric, what exactly was the point of this thread? We all buy our models here, and I'm not sure that any modelling forum in North America will give any different of a response.

Now as to the naming issue, those who brought it up should really get acquainted with forum etiquette and lay off. Nicknames, callsigns, your real names, use whatever you wish, that's the rule of the day. What, now I'm less of a person, or I have something to hide because I don't post using my real name. Bah.

I think it's probably best if we let this thread just slip off into the depths. I think the level-headed folks have made their opinions known, and unless we stay on top of this one, it has the potential to get ugly, especially with the weekend coming. While the cats are away, the mice will play...so why borrow trouble?

Jeff

That I understand, but that's not my specific situation. All I'm doing is making a copy of the CD that sits in the drive and spins, and the original is less than 2 feet away in my computer desk, safe and sound (and not getting tossed around the desk or used as a coaster for my soda cans).

Jeff

Jeff-with OSX and a MAC-you are not allowed to install any software without the serial number and a registration of your identity-it used to be okay to copy software from work and bring it home as long as you used it for work-but not anymore.

Copyright law is strange...for example, I copy CD games...I buy the original, make a working copy, and put the original back in the case. No, I don't share it with my pals, or install it on every machine in my house. I do it because I'm a lazy CD-keeper, and they get abused. When my computer can't read the CD anymore, I toss it and make another 'working' copy. This keeps my CDs in perfect condition. Technically, I'm not sure if that's illegal or not, but as long as I hold to the rules of usage, I can't see any infractions, since no one else is gaining from my actions. This falls under "fair use" IMO.

In some instances...I feel there's no problem with casting parts for your own use...case in point...I have two Trumpeter 1/16 T-34s, an /85 and a /76 Mod 42...the /85 is being converted into an SU-85, but I need the solid dished roadwheels from the T-34/76.

Since no one sells 1/16 solid dished roadwheels, and since I'm not about to throw away a perfectly good (but wheel-less) T-34/76 (I've never seen a Mod 42 with the later roadwheels), I'm making a copy and casting a set of my own. I've purchased both tank kits, and I'm not selling the roadwheels to anyone else, so I don't have a problem with it since there's no other option available to me (you try buying parts from Trumpteer). Yes, I'll have an extra set of full spider wheels that I won't be using, but that's not the argument.

I have to agree with everyone else about copying and selling someone else's work. The only way I'd consider it to be remotely ok is if the model or parts have no living or corporate ownership...ie., a company that's long since been out of business and no one can claim ownership to the originals. But even in that instance, unless you've got definitive legal proof, it's not ok in my book. Copying someone else's work for profit and not compensating them is wrong, illegal, immoral, criminal, etc.

That's my personal opinion, btw.

Jeff

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lufbery Rob, I'm not too sure about the legalities of casting copies of something one owns, if one has also not created that item. The bottom line, though, is that casting copies of something for personal use, while it may be a violation of copyright laws, will not ever be noticed. It may even be the kind of thing that falls pretty close to the "fair use" provisions in copyright law -- like videotaping a TV show for later viewing, or quoting a bit of text from a book for a review. There's an economic argument too. The stuff one uses to cast resin copies is often more expensive than simply buying a new kit with th extra part! It's much easier and cheaper for me to buy the Aeroclub Scarff ring and Lewis Gun set at $7 (with shipping) than it is for me to copy that piece after spending $30-40 for the laytex and resin. I'll grant that there's a break-even point, but it won't be until I've cast five or six pieces of the same thing. The big problem, of course, is casting copies of something and selling them to other people. That is blatantly illegal. Regards,

The economic arguement is a good one, but modelers have been making casts of truck tires, ammo cans, Jerry cans and other sundry stowage items for years. I agree that it is cheaper and easier to buy another unless it is a high priced resin item and you need multiple copies of it for your project.

ajlafleche,

I think you should stop beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel!

For the record I use my real name on forums. I'm not afraid of repercussions on anything I say, as I don't say anything bad. If I did, I wouldn't be afraid and would be quite prepared to deal with the consequences.

Guy, if your lowlife, too lazy and untalented to do the work themselves, criminal friends go down on copyright infringement, theft of intelectual property, et al you get to join them in a conspiracy charge as well. If you're real lucky, maybe you'll be bigger than your cell mate. But I wouldn't wish that for you.
Buh-bye!

Rob,

I'm not too sure about the legalities of casting copies of something one owns, if one has also not created that item. The bottom line, though, is that casting copies of something for personal use, while it may be a violation of copyright laws, will not ever be noticed.

It may even be the kind of thing that falls pretty close to the "fair use" provisions in copyright law -- like videotaping a TV show for later viewing, or quoting a bit of text from a book for a review.

There's an economic argument too. The stuff one uses to cast resin copies is often more expensive than simply buying a new kit with th extra part! It's much easier and cheaper for me to buy the Aeroclub Scarff ring and Lewis Gun set at $7 (with shipping) than it is for me to copy that piece after spending $30-40 for the laytex and resin. I'll grant that there's a break-even point, but it won't be until I've cast five or six pieces of the same thing.

The big problem, of course, is casting copies of something and selling them to other people. That is blatantly illegal.

Regards,

Eric-I am just chiming in to back up Rob. Yes you can take initiative to replicate anything! But only for your own use.

QUOTE: Originally posted by echolmberg Hi everyone! This is quite the hotbed isn't it!?! Very interesting to say the least. I'll have to admit that I don't know too much about this subject but my wife, a graphic artist, has to deal with a lot of people who want to bootleg copies of software and graphic art. I actually do have a question though. Is it illegal to cast a resin copy of an item that you want several of? For example, if I'm working on a diorama of a forward airfield and I want to show multiple bombs piled up as I've seen in some WW2 pics, is it legal for me to cast 10 bombs to pile up in the corner of my dio? Or is it only illegal if I cast them with the intention of selling my casts for money? Thank you, Eric

Eric, it is legal for you to buy the original and then make copies for your own personal use. It would be illegal for you to give the copies to your friends or sell them.

The best analogy for a recaster is not to compare it to a car but to a book. Recasting items to make pirated copies is like buying the latest book. Then make copies of the entire book and sell them. That is what it is like.

Hi everyone! This is quite the hotbed isn't it!?! Very interesting to say the least. I'll have to admit that I don't know too much about this subject but my wife, a graphic artist, has to deal with a lot of people who want to bootleg copies of software and graphic art.

I actually do have a question though. Is it illegal to cast a resin copy of an item that you want several of? For example, if I'm working on a diorama of a forward airfield and I want to show multiple bombs piled up as I've seen in some WW2 pics, is it legal for me to cast 10 bombs to pile up in the corner of my dio? Or is it only illegal if I cast them with the intention of selling my casts for money?

Thank you,

Eric

PS. Just thought of something interesting. I don't mind using my real name. Believe me. I'm all for protecting one's privacy but here in the forum we're all like family. Just as I wouldn't keep stuff from my family, nor would I do it here. We all share our successes, our terminal illnesses, the births of our first born, when we loose our jobs, when we find new ones. While this topic of piracy is interesting, it's too bad there are some here who openly admit to partaking in criminal activity and feel they must hide their identity. I wonder what the point was of starting this thread. Why say "I will not tell you who I am but here is the illegal activity I'll be doing." To what end does the post serve? What was the purpose of the post? I gather the original author is a very intelligent person and already had their mind made up regarding their actions.

I don't think it can be said better than what Brian has written. Do what you want, just be honest with yourself about it.

As for the software industry, I've been in the game for 20 odd years, and I certainly haven't seen the 90% code stealing mentioned. Code & Idea sharing, yes, stealing? No, not everyone does it.

Coming from someone who's had his work pirated (my Fletcher book, by someone in the Ukraine that posted it on the internet in PDF), I can't say that I'd condone the practice.

I think I know the industry well enough to figure out the financials too...I can't see how it's possible to make 7 digits on a referral in this industry, even legally!

The plastic model industry caters to a small, finite number of clients. When you consider the number of companies, kits, and disposable dollars in this hobby, it just doesn't add up.

Jeff

QUOTE: Originally posted by guy montag I just don't see how me introducing Bob in China to Robert in Russia is going to hurt this hobby in the least, in fact it will make it stronger. After all 90% of the work has already been done. Thank you, Guy Montag

Yup, I can imagine that's precisely how most criminals rationalize their crimes, Guy.

Sorry to sound like a broken record here, but let me run this by you again, in as simple terms as possible, with no analogies, similes, or any other confusing literary devices:

Recasting=Stealing
Recasting =Pirating
Recasting=Bootlegging
Recasting=CRIME

Recasters=Thieves
Recasters=Pirates
Recasters=Bootleggers
Recasters=CRIMINALS

Putting Party A in contact with Party B for the sole and express purpose of carrying out recasting (see above) makes you just as guilty as the recasters (see above) themselves.

Making you essentially a recaster yourself.



Regardless of the authenticity of your story or your motives for posting it here, I again welcome the opportunity to emphatically restate what recasting is:

CRIME

Plain and simple.
You may choose to be a criminal, or you may choose not to be a criminal.
Your choice.
Choose wisely.