Recasting: Morals or Money?

QUOTE: Originally posted by nathaniel QUOTE: Good point! It's like saying why buy the car when you can steal it! Actually a better analogy would be "why buy the car when you can take measurements, put it through an industrial process and make a copy of it in your factory?" The original property isn't stolen or removed, so your analogy fails.

Well if you're looking at the car purely as an amalgamation of metal, rubber and plastic, that's true.

However, behind the physical aspect that you can see and touch, there are millions of dollars worth of research, design and development which went into producing the finished item. This is what is known as the "intellectual property" componennt.

In replicating the finished item, one does not have to spend this money or do any research or development, so in a sense, it is the intellectual property that is being stolen.

It is exactly the same as when one copies a software or music disc. Physically, the disc itself is nothing more than a few cents worth of plastic. It is what is recorded on the disc that has value.

If producing an item for sale was as simple as taking an existing product and replicating it, without adding any sort of improvement or innovation, then we could well be driving around in Model-T Fords or worse.

Why" you ask..

Well what is the point of spending money to create something new, or make something better when someone else can just take it, copy it and sell it as their own?

QUOTE: Originally posted by nathaniel QUOTE: Good point! It's like saying why buy the car when you can steal it! Actually a better analogy would be "why buy the car when you can take measurements, put it through an industrial process and make a copy of it in your factory?" The original property isn't stolen or removed, so your analogy fails.

you could say
" why buy the correct brakes for your car when you can buy copys that are made to a lower standard and end up not working"

theres loads out there from China that come over here with copy BMW box's and copy BMW brakes the crumble under hard braking

Sorry about my analogy-but I'm not a trial lawyer.

QUOTE: Good point! It's like saying why buy the car when you can steal it!

Actually a better analogy would be "why buy the car when you can take measurements, put it through an industrial process and make a copy of it in your factory?" The original property isn't stolen or removed, so your analogy fails.

QUOTE: I feel the exact opposite, I think artists/inventors/crafts men etc. should be proteced from people who copy their work. Without that protection they have little to earn their profits with.

Actually I sort of agree with you. But I sort of don't. Artists/inventors/craftsmen should indeed be protected from people who copy their work, but I'm coming to the conclusion that current copyright laws are more about protecting the profitable distribution system than the artist. It's great when they can actually be used to protect the artist though. I just think they need a little rethinking. Things like Creative Commons and the Free Culture Movement are what we need more of:

http://creativecommons.org/
http://www.free-culture.cc/about/
http://www.free-culture.cc/freecontent/

As for this particular venture, it does sound like he's already decided on what he'll do. And the truth be told, I would probably go for 4 recasts for the price of one original provided the quality was there. If it's not, it's worth paying for an actual quality kit.

I have had my work subject to unauthorized copying and distribution. I have probably even lost money from it-- but my response after the fact was to relicense the work with a creative commons license and encourage those making deriviative works of my work to do so above the board and in cooperation with me for free just so more stuff I thought was cool would get made.

I'm also the opposite of an individualist. I believe that I have been shaped by those around me to the point where what I produce artistically is owed to the larger society. I would say that my community has as much rights to my expression as I do and consider it a gift of mine to everyone. Not everyone can make that choice though.

Definitely check out Lessig's Free Culture -- he decided to give the book away for free on his website (link above). You'll learn some interesting things about patent violations in the early twentieth century and the relation between those and the claims of current intellectual property proponents. It's actually quite fascinating.

QUOTE: Originally posted by LancasterFM104 Well, I've read the thread over and the responses. Montag says why re-invent the wheel when 90% of the work has been done already. Yeah, 90% by someone else. If someone stole something that this guy did, wonder if he would be so agreeable to another reaping a profit from his work. Somehow I don't think so. Just because "everyone is doing it" doesn't make it right.

Good point! It's like saying why buy the car when you can steal it!

Well, I've read the thread over and the responses.

Montag says why re-invent the wheel when 90% of the work has been done already. Yeah, 90% by someone else.

If someone stole something that this guy did, wonder if he would be so agreeable to another reaping a profit from his work. Somehow I don't think so.

Just because "everyone is doing it" doesn't make it right.

Every single industry in the world could benefit from some open source movements, but it just isn't going to happen.

Way to go Lufbery, I've been involved with the open source movement for years now. I really love linux, you can make it do what ever you want. It really empowers you. You just can't play as many games on it as windows, but more game developers are coming around. The most fun that I have ever had programing is when I'm programing for linux. It's just fun.

The model industry needs to take a look at the open source movement. It could learn some valuable lessons.
Take care,
Guy Montag

The whole modeling hobby dead? I just don't see this hobby ever dying. How could this happen?
We have a saying in software design, "90% of the work has already been done. Why reinvent the wheel?"
We are in the golden age of modeling, more modelers are building more types of models than ever before. I don't see a dying hobby, I see a hobby that is barely reaching puberty, if that. What I do see is the major model companies dying out if they don't wake up to the changing modeling climate at the present. I for one am tired of buliding the same old kits that have been unchanged for 40 years. I don't like having to wait till doomsday to have a kit released, then after a production run of 1500 kits, it's discontinued never to be seen again.

I just don't see how me introducing Bob in China to Robert in Russia is going to hurt this hobby in the least, in fact it will make it stronger. After all 90% of the work has already been done.
Thank you,
Guy Montag

Trowlfazz,

That's one reason why I like the open source software movement!

I'm toying with Linux and Linux application at home now. If I can replicate most of what I do with Windows software, I'll be a happy guy.

Regards,

Well, Drew-it's a good idea not to pirate software etc. nowadays. I can't even load software on my own CPU without a password. There are now huge fines for piracy. And worse still-huge rewards for whistle blowing. I've spent about $3,400 USD for software this year, hopefully upgrades will be cheaper-but that is nothing compared to fines for piracy.

Guy Montag, you can rationalize how clean your hands are all you want, but what you are suggesting is still illegal, unethical, and immoral. You, as a facilitator, are just as guilty as the people pouring the resin and selling the pirated kits.
Pirating.
Bootlegging.
Crime.
And you are considering becoming a part of it.
You are considering becoming a criminal.
Don't kid yourself, because that is in fact what you would be.
A criminal.
A criminal, your hands stained with the blood of a hobby you helped kill.

Sleep well, Guy!

Well,

That's a lot of money, but it still smells really fishy to me. Being paid that much to do that little sounds too good to be true. Why can't those groups get together on their own without your mediation? I'm not looking for details, but it just sounds strange.

Furthermore, if we accept that recasting is a violation of copyright laws and is therefore illegal, then facilitating in any way an illegal activity is illegal.And even if it is not illegal, it is immoral.

Would I buy a recast? No. I generally buy all my software too, and I don't pirate movies or music from the Internet.

I guess I'm just that kind of guy.

QUOTE: Originally posted by guy montag As modelers, would you buy 3 or 4 recast kits for the same amount of money that you would pay for an original?

As much as I hate to admit it, I probably would. I am a sucker for a cheap price, since to me a lot of the kits on the market are ridiculously overpriced. Everyone seems to make it look that model companies are strugling to stay alive. You know what, you're all probably right. The average designer, mould cutter, and what-have-you probably ISN'T doing that well, but I'm certain that the guys holding the reigns are doing just fine.
And even in this industry, copying is not new. How many companies have ripped off moulds from Tamiya, then reboxed them with their own logo. This isn't something new.
I don't know what exactly you were looking for in this post. Some kind of moral justification?
Many people here wouldn't do it, but you're probably very correct in taking that assumption that if you don't, someone else will. That's a fact, it's human nature, and it won't change. Copying and forgery are a staple of any indistry. I don't always have a problem with it, since this world is so corrupt anyways, it just seems to fit with the system. Believe it or not, most economic and profit models factor in money lost to forgeries.
Anyways, just my rant. Don't mean to upset anyone, and if I were in this guy's place, well I'd hate to be a liar and say that it wouldn't make me think, at least a little.

you might think its ok with software but software is more proficable than model making
the buisnessess that survive the theft of there code in software dont survive in model making

all your doing is helping to kill this hobbie,

I would like to thank everyone who has replied to this post. This is a real opportunity that has presented itself and if I don't do it, someone, somewhere will. I have been a software engineer for the past 22 years and in the software game everybody copys/steals from everybody else. Company A writes and release some code and in 2 or 3 months, company B copys/steals that code and releases as their own. Everybody does it, everybody knows and few do anything about it. One thing that I have learned from the software game is, always get the money up front, because in 2 or 3 months everybody will have it and there will be little, if any money to make.

This venture is not about putting 1 or 2 people together, it's about putting together 7 or 8 groups ( supply, manufacturing, marketing and distribution). I will not have to pour one drop of resin or ship one recast kit. I will make 1.2 to 1.7 million for doing this and they will make 10's of millions, if not more. Since I have not taken an active role, my hands are clean. I'm just putting these people together with each other.

As modelers, would you buy 3 or 4 recast kits for the same amount of money that you would pay for an original?
Would you buy a recast of a kit that has been out of production for 10 or 15 years and will probably never be in production again?
Just some things to think about.

No, my name is not Guy Montage. It's just the handle I use because I enjoy the book so much. Never use your real name in an open internet forum.
Thanks again,
Guy Montag

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lufbery For the record, this post really feels like a troll. The bottom line is that doing something illegal is doing something illegal, and your hands aren't clean.

And the same goes for what Rob Gronovius said, too.
And, IF this post is on the up and up (of which I have my doubts)? You, Guy Montag, better get your "seven figure profit" up front and in cash before you ever introduce these thieves to one another. Because, if these two parties are as unscrupulous as you are? They will break you over like a fine English double barrel fowling piece (that's a shotgun to us 'Rednecks') and put it to you just like they are putting to any of the copyright holder's that they copy!!!

For the record, this post really feels like a troll.

The bottom line is that doing something illegal is doing something illegal, and your hands aren't clean.

Your not working with two well known Chinese firms with castings done by a well known Japanese firm are you????

And you contacts don't happen to be located on the coast of Africa?

Hate to say it, but international business is just that, taking advantage of ones innovation to profit off of the life cycle of the product. It is up to the innovator to protect themselves and expect to only profit from the first 25% of the market life cycle of the product before distribution brokers and copycats start eating into the market share.

Scott

Hmm, 7 figures for getting two groups together? I don't know.
I don't neccessarily support illegitimate copying and selling, but then again, money is money, and if you've been modelling for 40 years, you're probably late on in your life anyways, and don't have too much time left. Enjoy it, know you're leaving your mark on the world as an immoral man.
Kinda says something about your character doesn't it?

Whether this "Guy Montag" character is real or not, this thread presents a good opportunity to reiterate that recasting is illegal, unethical, and immoral.

Don't do it, don't support it, and don't buy recasts.

QUOTE: Originally posted by nathaniel My own personal views are that copyright and trademark laws do more harm than good and that works should be shared. That's not the law of the land nor the situation we are in though.

I feel the exact opposite, I think artists/inventors/crafts men etc. should be proteced from people who copy their work. Without that protection they have little to earn their profits with.

So I would also be opposed to recasting on a commercial basis.

Guy Montag, Huh? Where's Julie Christie!?? Man-I'm surprised this person feels that he can fool the bright and literary people here. BTW-send me all your money and I'll invest it for you.

QUOTE: Originally posted by guy montag An opportunity now presents itself that I could put some of these groups of people together and I will make a seven figure profit very easily off this venture.

Hmmm, I see a red hering here. I assume that the profit figure given is in USD and not some other currency???

QUOTE: So the question is: If all you had to do was put these people in contact with each other and there was no connection back to you and you made a boatload of money, as a modeler and a businessman, would YOU do it?

Seven digit profit figure for putting people into contact with each other, nice profit margin and hooks for helping people partake in an illegal venture.
Where do I sign up?? j/k.

No, I would NOT do it, not even for a 10 or 20 digit profit margin.

This sounds like a bogus posting to me. I'm not buying it.

Oh, "Guy Montag". That was the name of the fireman in Ray Bradbury's book/film, Fahrenheit 451.

Nathaniel and Rob, thanks so much for your input in this matter. I'm going to put these people together and take my money and be on my way. What they do after is their concern and my hands will be clean.
Thanks again,
Guy Montag

And what happens when the original sculpter goes out of business because of your actions in getting the two parties together? The recasters drive the price down for his product until it is not longer profitable for him to stay in business.

Although the following example is more serious, what if you were playing the middleman getting a hitman and a person who wanted someone killed together? Hey, you didn't want anyone killed and you didn't pull the trigger.

In the end, all you do is help these people cheat everyone in the modeling community. Regular modelers end up paying what they think is a fair price for an original but get a cheap copy. And the original sculpter gets cheated out of his fair share.

It depends. Are these nations/locations part of international copyright treaties? Are the kits currently produced by the original or an actually licensed maker?

People generally take a pretty hard stance against such reproductions, but truth be told, many in the sculpting business support recasting in markets they can not yet have their stuff sold in. They see it as setting up the market for their entry at a lower risk. Most people will switch from recasts to originals if they're competitively prices solely because the originals will be casts of a proper master sculpt done by professional casters. This is certainly the case with resin figures depicting characters from anime (Japanese cartoons). There is also a thriving derivitive manga business in Japan that is techinically a violation of copyrights and trademarks but is beloved by the manga producers as adding to the demand/exposure of their products.

The first problem though, is that if you are dealing with people who are willing to profit off of the designs of others without crediting them, how do you know you will be properly compensated? How can you enter into a trusting business relationship with people who have already shown that they aren't necessarily interested in following the law or giving people what they've earned? Be very careful, as you could just as easily end up losing a boatload of money.

And here's a question: Say you made something and someone in another country put some people in contact with others and they made a seven figure profit off of your work and didn't give you a thing. How would that make you feel? Would it be right?

My own personal views are that copyright and trademark laws do more harm than good and that works should be shared. That's not the law of the land nor the situation we are in though.