back slapping verses face slapping...

Steve, this has come up before and like any of the numerous similar subjects... the ones that don't have one single definitive answer... you will get a myriad of responses.  Case in point is the now deleted "What happened to FineScale Finishing" thread.  We are all in this hobby for different reason with different exceptions which is the reason for the varied answers.

Each forum will develop its own personality.  There are without a doubt less "rivet counters" (not really a huge fan of that term but it fits here none the less) in this forum than some of the others.  I think the consensus the last time this came up was that if you want a critique in this forum you kind of have to ask for it.  Personally, I want anything that I post here to be picked apart.  It will be the only way that I get better.  And that is why I am here... to improve my skills and techniques, to glean as much info from the modelers that are better than me.

Constructive criticism is nice, it can help a modeler improve and also those that read the thread, as well.  With all the personal preference that goes into builds, there is a great deal of gray(grey for the rest of the anglo nations) when it comes to accuracy and build quality.  If all the comments here became critical, I don't think as much work would be posted.  It's a fine line between being helpful and being rude.  For the most part, I think people get what they want, encouraged.  Some get it from suggested improvements and others from praise.  I see lots of thread that read something like My T-34 Be Nice PLZ or P-51 All Done Criticism Welcome.  However, less "rivet counting" can mean less discouragement.  Some places on the InterWeb can be brutal.  All you end up with is a lot of negative comments, the _____ is 1.2mm too close to the _____, or your paint scheme looks like the wrong tone.  As we all know images on computer monitors are high fidelity, and the colors displayed are always the same as real life no matter what computer you are on.  The right thing to do is to direct people to check up for themselves.  If the color seems off, tell them you think the color doesn't look quite right too you and that they may want to see if the paint they used is correct, not your color is wrong.  It's about being helpful. 

As an example  (I'm not picking on you), T26E4 is very helpful.  Sometimes he seems a little cold, but he explains what he says and directs you to the fix.  If you listen, you'll probably make a better looking model.

SteveM, check your PM. 

IMHO, yes, this forum in particular, has way too many fawning, wish-mine-comes/came-out-half-as-good-as-yours posts, especially when the model is pedestrian, at best. There are some of us who've been in this hobby a long, l-o-n-g time. I built my first model as an adult over 30 years ago. In the intervening years i've been taught a lot by people who were building before and better than I. When I offer a critique, I don't consider it slapping someone on the wrist but passing on some of the knowledge others passed on to me as well as things I've learned from judging and being judged at contests since 1980. If I hadn't learned from those more skilled and experienced than I, I'd still be using a brush to paint aircraft, not filling seams, and painting flesh with single out of the bottle colors. Very little of what I produce is from self-taught skills. Virtually everything was learned from others willing to share their talents.

If one doesn't want to be given advice, perhaps he/she should so indivcate in the post. "I'm happy with what I did, and don't want to learn to do anything better so don't post any responses that don't reinforce what I've done. I don't care to improve and I only want praise"

ajlafleche wrote:

If one doesn't want to be given advice, perhaps he/she should so indivcate in the post. "I'm happy with what I did, and don't want to learn to do anything better so don't post any responses that don't reinforce what I've done. I don't care to improve and I only want praise"

I'd have to agree with the general sentiment of this discussion.  It does seem like many people are reluctant to be critical of others works, which is fine.  What is not fine, however, is when people are intolerant of others who ARE critical.  Granted, some comments might be clearly mean spirited or overly harsh.  There is something to be said for providing constructive comments. 

I don't get to build nearly as much as I would like to, and I rarely have an opportunity to post my work.  But when I do I am anxious to hear what others think.  The good, yes, but also the not so good, and perhaps even the bad.  Tell me what I screwed up, but more importantly, give me suggestions to improve.  As ajlafleche wrote up above, if you don't want comments on your work, maybe you should indicate that when you post.  But above all, I think people need to remember, this is a public forum.  If a person willingly displays their work in the public domain, then they need to be prepared for commentary on that work, both good and bad.  In the immortal words of Dennis Miller, "Hey, life is tough... Wear a cup..."

I don't think the issue here is whether or not criticism should be given.  For the most part, people that post here WANT to be critiqued for improvement.  I think the greater issue is the attitude that certain parties take and the language that they choose, bothof which can be very hurtful.  There are a good number of folks around here that are very sincere and genuine that offer great advise.  Many folks have practical working knowledge and years of research to back their opinions.  Then there are the brow-beating, sarcastic uber-modellers that just tear guys down.  Some guys, for whatever reason, take it as a personal afront if their advise is not taken to heart or taken into practice on the very next project.  Why?  I think it's ironic that the folks that tend to get all bent out of shape over this topic are the guys that do the critiquing.  The folks that get their work run through the wringer tend to be the ones with the level heads.

I agree with most that this forum is filled with gratuitous praise of one another's work. I also notice that if someone tries to give constructive criticism that is not applied with the softest of kid gloves, there are a many members that will immediately come to the builder's defense and attack the critic and heap mountains of gratuitous praise to insure the builder's feelings are not hurt.

I agree that one should not say that someone's work "sux" or looks like "doggie-doo", but to just say "great job", "looks good", "tastes great", "less filling" does not help a serious modeler improve his or her skills. Too bad the vast majority of members on this site will not allow others to receive contstructive criticism.

I've given up trying to help modelers here in improving their craft or skills. I'll answer questions and provide assistance, but won't critique a person's work because of the wrath it incurs.

I think it is typical human behavior, by some people, in any group of like minded individuals, to attempt to polarize the group with "alpha dog" behavior. By this I mean that we have certain individuals involved in the hobby who aren't really having fun building models anymore. The ego is the issue, not the project(s).

Some of us, who are older, remember when styrene was in its infancy, and we built (as kids and teens) to please ourselves. Nowadays, a whole different ball game exists. We buy the kits, buy the AM to "correct" the kits, buy all the supplies to build the kits, buy books to research the kits, etc.....All in the name of "accuracy"?, it is a replicating industry based on the dollars. Welcome to capitalism.

I draw on my experiences in other activities, such as shooting, where once organizations are formed and officers, judges and the like are elected, the trouble starts. A recent thread (now deleted) on this forum is a perfect example of the lingering class distinction in the hobby that relates to criticism on this forum and others.

One thing that I have learned here, is to examine my own behavior in this regard. We used to have a member here who clearly had very primitive skills, yet, would post critiques/advice on work done by others that he himself could never approach. This ticked me off, and I ripped him for it. Obviously, a bad move. Luckily, there were members here that scolded me, made me think, and I modified MY behavior in the community.

Now, if I don't like someones presentation, I use constructive language and most importantly, I use politeness and respect. I believe anyone can receive criticism, and benefit from it, as long as it is not vindictive.

Words can be lethal weapons, and pride must be tempered. Manners and respect are the watchwords here. You can say anything you want.....JUST BE NICE.

Steve

Rob, I think I understand your apparent loathing for gratuitous praise—one can't help wondering whether it's really sincere.

But I'd rather see too much of that than too little. This is a very discouraging world, and I'd rather see encouragement given than not.

And there's nothing wrong with being diplomatic and soft-spoken—people listen better. And, as I'm sure you know, it makes a much larger impression when the diplomatic, soft-spoken person roars! Took me an awful long time to learn that…

I, too, am very reluctant to critique another's work—some will have noted that I rarely respond to posted WIP's or completed projects, except in the case of children—we need to encourage the next generation of modelers as much as possible! I may do so if the modeler specifically requests it, but even then I am reluctant. It's not that I'm afraid of hurting feelings (they asked for it) or the wrath of others. The reason is simple humility, and that I'm looking at a picture with 72 dpi resolution. The camera is very unforgiving, and does not see the way the human eye does (better in some ways, worse in others—"Where the %##@! did that dust speck come from!"). And 72 dpi is not much. As for color, what I'm seeing on the monitor may be completely different than what is on the model.

And I may give up on the software of this forum, but the people—not.

Rob Gronovius wrote:

I agree that one should not say that someone's work "sux" or looks like "doggie-doo", but to just say "great job", "looks good", "tastes great", "less filling" does not help a serious modeler improve his or her skills.

Rob, doggie-doo, tastes great, less filling, you make me chuckle.  Although, less filling can be a very useful bit of advice.

Perhaps, so many heavy handed comments have occurred to novice builders, that (being a self moderated forum) the "civic minded" members that defend novices have become overly zealous.  I believe most of the builds here to be unremarkable.  Most comments seem to be the,  "I don't know what to say, but I would like to acknowledge this persons work... Nice work, I heard that kit was pretty good.  What did you think?"

As for gratuitous praise, I've given a short 'good build' or 'great job' to people who posted their work. None of which is ever gratuitous, if I didn't likes some work because I don't like the style - i.e. 'heavy or not panel empahsis', 'too much or too little weathering' - I just wont post anything. If I see some specific problem, I'll mention it.

If your modelling skills are high, some of the praise may seem gratuitous. But for many others with varying degrees of skills, they could very well be honest in praise.

Rob, BTW, I've received your critiques before and I appreciate them. As many have said, its not critique but it's how the critique is delivered.

Triarius wrote:

Rob, I think I understand your apparent loathing for gratuitous praise—one can't help wondering whether it's really sincere. But I'd rather see too much of that than too little. This is a very discouraging world, and I'd rather see encouragement given than not. And there's nothing wrong with being diplomatic and soft-spoken—people listen better. And, as I'm sure you know, it makes a much larger impression when the diplomatic, soft-spoken person roars! Took me an awful long time to learn that… I, too, am very reluctant to critique another's work—some will have noted that I rarely respond to posted WIP's or completed projects, except in the case of children—we need to encourage the next generation of modelers as much as possible! I may do so if the modeler specifically requests it, but even then I am reluctant. It's not that I'm afraid of hurting feelings (they asked for it) or the wrath of others. The reason is simple humility, and that I'm looking at a picture with 72 dpi resolution. The camera is very unforgiving, and does not see the way the human eye does (better in some ways, worse in others—"Where the %##@! did that dust speck come from!"). And 72 dpi is not much. As for color, what I'm seeing on the monitor may be completely different than what is on the model. And I may give up on the software of this forum, but the people—not.

There is a difference between being a critic and a coach. Many members on this forum will attack you for being either.

I agree with most of the above members.  There is too much gratuitous praise here and too little actual constructive comments.  My feeling is that no model is perfect and we can all learn from constructive criticism.  No one learns anything from "Looks great, awesome job."  My bigger complaint is when someone does give constructive criticism, they get jumped on by others telling them that the model looks great and how can you criticise, etc.....  We each have our opinions, and both sides should be respected.  Also, if you post pics out on the web to be seen by all, you have to expect to get some criticism along with praise.  I for one appreciate it.  I also am a pretty straight shooter who tells it like it is.  I will continue to give constructive criticism.  If you can't handle it, either don't post, or have a little thick skin and realize you can improve your abilities if you follow some of the constructive criticism given. 

Getting off my..

Forums are both a great place for info and a bad place for critiques. I, myself, have stopped from dishing out gratuitous praise, unless somebody comes along and says "look what my 8 (or whatever) child did" for in that case I will always say "Fabulous", "Great" or to steal a line from Triarius "Break his thumbs!". My level of knowledge does not allow me to know when someone is making an error in accuracy, and my skills are at a level where I need more help than I can be. 

It can be difficult to "critique" someone's work with only words, we don't have the ability to "say" things with our soft voices, and that can lead to bad feelings. Knowing how to word praise or criticism properly is a rare skill in itself.

Look at what happened to Hawxboss when he poised his thread the other day. He was trying to voice a real question, but managed to get people's knickers in a knot. It annoyed me and I tend to agree with him!

So I agree we should stop the back slapping, but work on how we can offer advice and criticism without the face slapping.

Bgrigg wrote:

Forums are both a great place for info and a bad place for critiques. I, myself, have stopped from dishing out gratuitous praise, unless somebody comes along and says "look what my 8 (or whatever) child did" for in that case I will always say "Fabulous", "Great" or to steal a line from Triarius "Break his thumbs!". My level of knowledge does not allow me to know when someone is making an error in accuracy, and my skills are at a level where I need more help than I can be.  It can be difficult to "critique" someone's work with only words, we don't have the ability to "say" things with our soft voices, and that can lead to bad feelings. Knowing how to word praise or criticism properly is a rare skill in itself. Look at what happened to Hawxboss when he poised his thread the other day. He was trying to voice a real question, but managed to get people's knickers in a knot. It annoyed me and I tend to agree with him! So I agree we should stop the back slapping, but work on how we can offer advice and criticism without the face slapping.

They are the ones who decrease the credibilty of sites like this and cause strife within the forums. The builder normally appreciates the insight and comments, it's his "self-proclaimed defenders" that are the problem and cause the flame wars making issues out of non-issues.

SteveM says it is your forum. I think we have a core "back-slapping" members who think it is their site and just let the rest of us participate. As long as we don't critique anyone's work.

HeavyArty wrote:

I also am a pretty straight shooter who tells it like it is.  I will continue to give constructive criticism.  If you can't handle it, either don't post, or have a little thick skin and realize you can improve your abilities if you follow some of the constructive criticism given.  Getting off my..

Amen to that... 

Rob,

I'm not against criticism, unless it's nasty or unwanted, and I'm not against praise, unless it's over the top or unwarranted. And I fully agree that when someone does offer construction critiques people shouldn't rush to defend the "victim". All I'm trying to point out how difficult it is to present either without misunderstandings happenings

the other hand I'm not in this hobby for any reason other than it gives me pleasure to build kits. If I did want a critique of my armor, I would likely ask you and Gino directly in  a PM.

Bill

Great Thread, I wish mine was this good!

Ok, so the moral of the story is be helpful, and try to be aware of others attempts at being helpful.  Not every "negative" comment is a dig.  Please, be descriptive with comments on builds.  Did I sum it up properly, or did I miss the point? 

The problem I have, being newly back into the hobby, is that 90% of what I see on the forums is something I sit back and say "Wow- I wish I could do that." Maybe I'm just easily impressed, but I honestly feel like most things I see others do is a motivation for me because they're better than what I feel I can do.

I think I can do a decent job- I could probably do better if I was more serious about it. But for someone still developing in the hobby, this place is full of amazing people.

And just so everyone will know- gratuitous praise is fine with me.

I'm guilty of coming to the defense of a young modeler when I saw a post on his thread that would've had me logging out permanently and selling off my stash. But I now think that betrayed my own fragility. This is something that I'd like to change about myself in all aspects.

I will always ask for the hardball and I promise to mean it and, if I am lucky to receive it, will accept it for what it is- a solicited critique that I will use to better my skills. And I do want it from the rivet counters as well. I can slap together a tank. Easy. You want a tank? Heck, I can get you a tank by 2pm today. With nail polish, Dude 

SteveM 

Well guys i'm one of those that likes to complement others when they post pics of their builds and i'm not being insincere when i do . I just enjoy see the pics of other people work and i appreciate the time and effort that it took to build the model , take the pic and then post it . I dont know that much about the actual vehicles so i dont see the discrepencies if there are any . So the next time you see me post a complement to someones build you'll know that it is really how i feel and i am not being a foney ......

SHL -

The problem with a website vs. a real life club is that when a model is shown, you have no way of knowing if the builder is a kid, teen, novice, adult, expert, etc.

I agree that some people can be unnecessarily harsh. That's a phenomenon I call "keyboard courage". Those people feel they can be bullies because of the anonymity of the internet. They thrive on conflict and enjoy feeling superior when they pick apart other people's work. The only way to deal with these types of people is to ignore them.

Most members of this site (at least in the armor forum) are not like that and only provide feedback that they think is helpful to the builder. Some may be more direct than others, but in the armor forum, I rarely see anyone providing feedback that is unfriendly.

Sometimes the feedback provided is on the quality of the building, and other times it is about accuracy. People who provide feedback regarding accuracy get called rivet counters by the defenders.

, Rob.

Even rivet counters can offer useful critique, but again, it's all in the delivery and attitude. When you are the expert on a subject, it doesn't hurt to be deferential, now and then, as in: "Didn't the Pzkpfw. III, Ausf. Q, as license built in Libya, have three extra rings welded to the back of the hull as camel attachment points?" Phrasing an error as a question is a lot less hostile than even a pedantic statement. (And I hope there is no such vehicle…

And one of the things you learn as an expert is that you don't know everything. (Been there. Done that. Wrote the papers, got the t-shirt, turned down the book contract like an idiot…) The easiest way to spot a real expert is by their humility—the one thing they really know is the extent of their own ignorance.

when i look at someone's work any comment i make is based on MY building abilityor limitations

on a scale of 1-10 my best model is a 5 and most of them are closer  to a 3.75, i am not really good but i build just for fun i would never enter a contest  i have been modeling for 40 yrs  and my level is that of a 12 yr old   i am not being harsh on my self  but realistic 

now how this relates to comments i make on others   if it is better than mine i will say so

if it looks worse than mine ( and yes there are a few (just a few though) of you out there, some very popular guys too) that have models that look worse  i will not insult and therefore will not even make a comment

eizzle wrote:

they airbrushed a dog turd (whats with all the dog poo???) I don't understand,

if they scratch built something nice out of the poo and some resin or p/e   it may be a great model