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V-22 Osprey Tiltrotor

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  • Member since
    November 2005
V-22 Osprey Tiltrotor
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 11, 2005 10:16 AM
I assume this is the right place to post this topic, although it's a matter of opinion what the Osprey actually is. Is it a helicopter or is it an aircraft...

Anyway, I just received the book "Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey" by Bill Norton from AeroFax. I haven't read it completely of course, but paging through this book I already got some great ideas.
Did you know that one of the very early mission profiles for the V-22 was VIP transport? At one point it was destined to replace/augment VH-3's and VH-60's for VMX. Unfortunately this was cancelled because of problems and delays in production. At this time the most likely winner for the new VIP aircraft would be the EH-101.
But there's a very nice image of a "VV-22 Osprey" printed in this book. As well as a Medivac variant, the (also cancelled, although still very interesting) "SV-22" subhunter and "KV-22" tanker. I wish I had the time and space, but if I could I would get about 5 or six V-22 Ospreys in 1/72nd and paint and modify one of those in each of these varieties!! Still, I think I'll be getting the Italeri V-22 kit though.

I would also like to know what you think of this. Should it be cancelled? I think not, it's a too interesting design and it has great promises for the future.
Of course, there have been already too many casualties, and it is true that testing this aircraft is a dangerous job. But what did they expect, it's a totally new kind of machine, something unlike anything before. And when the first helicopters were built, they also contributed too many deaths in testing these new vehicles. Same goes for the aircraft. The idea has merit, and if it really comes into production/service, it will greatly enhance Marine, Airforce, Army and Naval operations. The biggest problem with the Osprey is it's price. It's costs are escalating rapidly. But this also is a result of poor politics and managing. The US Government should do it different. They agree on a price for the Osprey with the manufacturers, and that's what they will pay for it. If the manufacturer can make it cheaper (although still keep it's capabilities) than the rest is profit. If costs go up, well tough luck. Not our problem. The Dutch government did the very same with the new "De Zeven Provincien class" air defence frigate. A price was set, and that was final. Below this price would be profit, above it would be carried by the shipyard.

Any thoughts on this?
I'd also like to know what you think of the Italeri kit, and if there's anything better available.
Thanks!!

Remko
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Monday, April 11, 2005 10:55 AM
Their new 1/48 kit is more up to date and closer to production specs than the 1/72 outing. I'm going to finish mine as a CV-22 (one of these days). Interior on the 1/48 version lends itelf to some nice detailing opportunities. the bulkhead and are by the aft ramp may need some work. Looks kind of spartan and there may be gaps on the inside from where the sponsons are.

You're soliciting personal opinions on the Osprey here? Laugh [(-D] Let's see... 10 foot poll? Check. Padding? Check. 'Duck-n-cover' instruction film? Check. Crash helmet? "Oh, I hope not." This could get extra salty so I ain't going anywhere near it!! Laugh [(-D]
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Lafayette, LA
Posted by Melgyver on Monday, April 11, 2005 11:12 AM
I had started on a 1/48 V-22 when they first came out and made some fuselage interior "plugs" for the sponsons. I had thought of building mine as "Golly Green" Osprey. It's been so long I guess I need to check out the "new and improved" version. It would look good sitting next to the new 1/48 CH-46.

Clear Left!

Mel

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 11, 2005 11:33 AM
I agree that a 1/48th model would look much cooler, and it will also be in scale with my other (far more expensive) hobby: heavy haulage and construction equipment. in 1/50th-1/48th scale.
But unfortunately the Osprey is a pretty big aircraft, and I don't have the space for a 1/48th model.
Besides, if I do a special version of a MV-22B for Special Operations Aircraft in 1/72nd, it would fit much better with the MH-47E Chinook I'm going to get as well as my Dragon and Revell 1/72nd scale models of armored vehicles.

Thanks anyway.

Remko
  • Member since
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  • From: Kincheloe Michigan
Posted by Mikeym_us on Monday, April 11, 2005 1:43 PM
now here is the 1 million dollar question is the V-22 a Helicopter or a plane?
and would it fit in with the plane category or the helicopter topics?

On the workbench: Dragon 1/350 scale Ticonderoga class USS BunkerHill 1/720 scale Italeri USS Harry S. Truman 1/72 scale Encore Yak-6

The 71st Tactical Fighter Squadron the only Squadron to get an Air to Air kill and an Air to Ground kill in the same week with only a F-15   http://photobucket.com/albums/v332/Mikeym_us/

  • Member since
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  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Monday, April 11, 2005 1:52 PM
It's a hybred a/c, think they are hoping for a civilian interest in them to help drop the price after the military pays for the development
  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Monday, April 11, 2005 2:20 PM
I'm probably repeating myself, but I'm planning to make my Osprey into an AV-22 gunship, along the lines of a Spooky/Spectre style. I've got the mini-guns that I need and I think I can scratch a couple cannons as well from styrene tube and other bits. Should be a fun project when I get to it.

That and maybe I need another for a white/orange Coast Guard SAR-type Opsrey, just for the eye catching colors.
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, April 11, 2005 2:39 PM
LemonJello, if you like I can scan in some images from the book depicting an Osprey gunship variant.

Remko
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 6:46 AM
Hey, that would be awesome, Remko. If you get a chance, I'd appreciate that!

Now I just have to beat this spring fever and get back to the bench!
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 8:39 AM
Nice topic, Remko,

Most of my modelling is civil helo's/ aircraft and I am building a 1:72- What-if-civil airliner version of the Osprey. Already built the old 1:48 kit like that in KLM-livery (like their former helicopters).
I Know that the BV609 is meant for the civil market, but while waiting for a kit of that one, the V22 will have to do.

About our other hobby (1:50 construction equipment and HH): I remember a discussion on DHS in which you already noticed that 1:48 aircraft look way too big next to 1:50 equipment. That would definitely be the case with the 1:48 Osprey. It will not fit on any lowloader!

Good Luck, Gertjan
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 2:49 PM
Gert-Jan,

If you do a search on Google for "V-22 Osprey" there are a lot of images of civil colored aircraft. Although most are made for Flight Simulator. The coolest aircraft I have seen was an Osprey in FedEx livery. Very cool!!

BTW, you're right about the Osprey being huge. In scale 1/72nd the model is already 35 cm wide with rotors at maximum spread. In scale 1/48th the model will be about 54 cm wide!!!! Although it will fit on a Lowloader, it doesn't look good.

Anyway, I'll scan the photo's/images in tomorrow. I hope they come out okay...

Remko
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posted by ridleusmc on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 3:00 PM
I see the darn things flying around every day. In fact one was sitting at the washrack by my hanger for half the day. I don't really think they're dangerous anymore. I heard a factoid somewhere that more people died testing the old 46. I have no idea if that's true or not, but an Osprey hasn't crashed since I joined the Marine Corps. VMX-22 is the squadron here that puts these things into the air every day, and they're doing it safely.

***This is my own opinion and doesn't reflect the beliefs of anybody else in the military.*** But I don't think the Osprey would do well to replace the 46 or any other helo for the Marine Corps. It's double rotor/propeller arc is just too wide to be deployed from a modern LHA (Landing Helicoptor Assault) or LHD (Landing Helicopter Dock). The thing doesn't carry any defensive armorment due to it's pressurized cabin. These factors make me think that the Osprey isn't suited for areal assault or ship to shore operations. However, Air Force Spec Ops may find suits their needs well.

They're pretty impressive in flight, but I'd rather ride a CH-53E any day.

Semper Fi,
Chris
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:49 PM
Well, I'm going to jump in with both feet (green ones by the way). As a USAF CSAR type and from the perspective of having an operational background operating from USAF Spec Ops and SAR Helos....I'm not sold on the Osprey. I personnaly know 2 CCT members that conducted (or tried to conduct) FRIES Ops during the USAF's test phase. The rotor wash under the aircraft was almost impossible at a hover. Now I've been under Chinooks and Pave Lows (and so had these guys) but they said it was a high LimFac to FRIES Ops.
Chris,
Concerning USAF Spec Ops...brother, the idea of doing and Infil or an Exfil without any defensive armament makes my sphincter slam tight.

The bottom line (just my opinion and the opinion of many of my "co-workers"), is that while it's a great technology demonstrator, and does have a place in the DoD, I'm just not sure that place is aerial assault, or CSAR or even Spec Ops. My take on the matter is that they (folks with rank on their shoulders) see the Osprey as "killing two birds with one stone"...that being a replacement for both Tankers and Helos. From a USAF perspective, what we really need is a rotory wing replacement for the Pave Low (and the Pavehawk for that matter) and newer HC-130's.

There, I said it...let the stones fly.
  • Member since
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  • From: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posted by ridleusmc on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 10:23 PM
OK, I guess I was wrong about the Air Force using it as a spec ops plane. I don't know much about that secret squirel stuff. Thank you for enlightening me salbando.
  • Member since
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  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 2:26 AM
Another question is, who will provide the armed gunship escort for these puppies when they enter the hostile area? Even with the Zulu upgrade, the Cobras can't keep up with an Osprey in 'airplane mode.' Harrier or Hornet fixed wing assets maybe? Big maybe, because once they reach the LZ, they'll just be forced to circle the area, and identifying and engaging anyone on the ground at that point would be utter confusion. Not that combat itself isn't confusing, but having a helicopter gunship provide your LZ security would be safer than fixed-wing.

I never knew the cabin was supposed to be pressurized. Originally, I thought that the defensive armament was not possible due to the huge obstruction that the engine nacelles provide. Even if you get around the pressurization issue and mount guns on it, how ridiculously small would that gunner's field of fire be from out those side doors!? The Marine versions were supposed to mount gun turrets on the nose/chin, but that idea was eventually scrapped.

A whole lot of money has been sunk into this project, and it seems to be the way we are headed, like it or not. I think it is safe to say that if and when the Osprey goes fully operational, the Corps will be adopting a new doctrine for aerial operations. We're just going to have to exploit its strengths and minimize its weaknesses.
My 2 cents [2c]

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 3:18 AM
NOTE...the following is my opinion and mine only:

My 2 cents [2c] I agree with Chris, Salbando, and AH1WSnake. It would do great in the private/commerial aircraft industry for short hops from the city to city or city to outlying areas but for combat ops, I'm not sold. Self-Defense armament, armed escorts, and the lack thereof just doesn't give me the warm and fuzzy. Even with all the OpEvals with HMX-1 and VMMT-204 there are still issues that keep popping up. I opt for the newer version of the CH-53E (Sikorsky has it under CH-53X), and an updated version of the CH-46E (I think it was called the Boeing 300).

My 2 cents [2c]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:51 AM
According to the book they have tested various weapon options for this. Including a rear firing gun like that on the CH-53E. They're also trying miniguns out of the cockpit window, but because of Prop-rotor stands this is very difficult, and severely limits firing arcs.

As for the LHD compatibility, the Osprey at full spread (VTOL take-off) is only slightly larger than the CH-53 and I don't think it will be a problem. For USMC however, an armed derivative of the BA609 or XV-15, but with the Osprey's "swing-wing" for storage would be ideal I think.

Just my opinion though...
Smile [:)]Smile [:)]

Remko
  • Member since
    February 2004
  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 1:56 PM
Well, they'll have to come up with something, because with all the money that's been poured into it, the V-22 project will be pushed through. Maybe they can come up with a pure escort version. No troop capacity, underwing pylons or bomb bays for small LGBs or CBUs and some cannon/miniguns as well? HHmm, maybe I'll have to get a couple more of the 1/48 kits down the road for some "What If?" type builds.
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 4:54 AM
Lemonjello...maybe the pure armed escort will be your "mini-spooky" version. Big Smile [:D] Honestly...you never know...
  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Friday, April 15, 2005 6:42 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Dragonfire

Lemonjello...maybe the pure armed escort will be your "mini-spooky" version. Big Smile [:D] Honestly...you never know...

My gripe will be that nobody will really look for a solution until well after these enter squadron service...then the powers that be will scratch their heads and point fingers in the blame game.

But, on the topic, I think there are a lot of possibilities to this kit, civillian and military. Hmm, I wonder if there would be enough interest for a Group Build later this year...I'd get a kick out of seeing some V-22s in airline livery, or fire/police/air ambulance markings as well as military.
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 7:13 AM
Lemonjello...the GB is a good idea. Got me thinking about some livery schemes...Big Smile [:D]
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Friday, April 15, 2005 8:25 AM
Agreed. Osprey GB is a good idea LJ. Don't know if I can participate, but it could yeild some cool looking results.
------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Friday, April 15, 2005 9:30 AM
With warm weather coming, I won't be getting much work done on any of my kits, so any Osprey GB would have to wait for me as well. But it is something I'll keep on the back burner of my cluttered mind and I'll try to revive it later.
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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  • From: Maryland
Posted by Par429 on Friday, April 15, 2005 2:00 PM
Interesting perspectives on the V-22. But keep in mind that few aircraft are introduced to the fleet (or whatever service) in their final form. As has been pointed out, several conceptual arrangements for defensive guns have been considered, and just because it doesn't have them now doesn't really mean that they didn't work. It's just as likely that the program can't afford them. It's an unfortunate reality that most aircraft program can't afford to do things "right" simply because there are too many other programs and not enough money. Hard decisions are made all the time to leave off important capabilities to fund more important capabilities. Most programs have pre-planned improvements on their long-term schedules that take advantage of future money to buy new capabilities. Perhaps guns fall into this catagory.

But as much as I don't usually like to do "what if" builds, a V-22 gunship would be pretty cool.

Phil
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, April 15, 2005 4:40 PM
The other thing to think about is cost versus survivability. If you're going to employ this thing like a Phrog or a Stallion, you're definately going to be putting them into harms way. Now of course there are many other factors to consider, but just looking at cost per airframe, and referencing the loss rate for rotory-winged assets in both OIF and OEF...I hope the USMC budget increases.Wink [;)]
  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Friday, April 15, 2005 7:49 PM
Yeah, the budget will increase, so we can buy more riggers tape, JB Weld, and zip ties to hold the birds together once they start taking a beating...
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
  • Member since
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  • From: Maryland
Posted by Par429 on Friday, April 15, 2005 9:58 PM
You guys are exactly right. Nothing increases budgets like aircraft getting beat up. Phones will ring, money wil suddenly become available, technical problems will be solved and defensive guns will be there. Unfortunately this takes time, and in the meantime you guys are left doing the best you can with the tape and bailing wire. The process is short -sighted at times.

Phil
  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 12:21 AM
Latest Osprey News for all those interested. The original article can be found here:
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/main5/44586AE6511883E685256FE4006A5DD3?opendocument

MARINE CORPS AIR GROUND COMBAT CENTER TWENTYNINE PALMS, Calif (April 15, 2005) -- Combat center Marines and sailors may get a glimpse of the MV-22 Osprey flying again as the test group conducts practice missions during an operational evaluation period here going on throughout April.
All MV-22 Ospreys were grounded in January 2005 because of excessive wear found in the gearbox bearings which control the propellers, said to 2nd Lt. Geraldine Carey, public affairs officer for the test group.
Since then, those bearings have been replaced with chrome-coated ball bearings to protect from wear, said Carey.
The Osprey, which takes off and hovers like a helicopter, can rotate its nacelles and fly like an airplane, faster and further than a helicopter.
The Osprey is slated to replace the CH-46 Sea Knight and CH-53D Sea Stallion helicopters.
"The operational evaluation period began March 28," said Carey. "Two of the aircraft flew non-stop from [Marine Corps Air Station] New River, N.C., to Nellis Air Force Base, Nev., and conducted aerial refueling."
"The Ospreys made the cross-country journey in less than half a day," said Carey. "For the CH-46 helicopter, that would take over three days to fly the same distance."
Testing aboard the Combat Center includes the transporting of infantry Marines, refueling, defensive maneuvers against fixed- and rotary- wing threats and lifting external cargo.
According to Carey, the Osprey will be further tested on U.S. naval amphibious ships after evaluations are completed here.
When the operational evaluation period ends in June, a report will be delivered to Congress to make a decision of whether or not to enter full production.
"Only eight of the 19 MV-22 Ospreys are involved in the operational evaluation," said Carey. "The others will remain at New River and continue training for the pilots and air crew in order to have fully qualified instructors."

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
  • Member since
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  • From: Moooooon River!
Posted by Trigger on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 8:41 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by AH1Wsnake

All MV-22 Ospreys were grounded in January 2005 because of excessive wear found in the gearbox bearings which control the propellers, said to 2nd Lt. Geraldine Carey, public affairs officer for the test group.

Since then, those bearings have been replaced with chrome-coated ball bearings to protect from wear, said Carey.


"Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays. Now you prepare that Fetzer valve with some 3-in-1 oil and some gauze pads, and I'm gonna need 'bout ten quarts of anti-freeze, preferably Prestone. No, no make that Quaker State."

------------------------------------------------------------------ - Grant "Can't let that nest in there..."
  • Member since
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  • From: Green Lantern Corps HQ on Oa
Posted by LemonJello on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 8:56 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Trigger74

QUOTE: Originally posted by AH1Wsnake

All MV-22 Ospreys were grounded in January 2005 because of excessive wear found in the gearbox bearings which control the propellers, said to 2nd Lt. Geraldine Carey, public affairs officer for the test group.

Since then, those bearings have been replaced with chrome-coated ball bearings to protect from wear, said Carey.


"Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays. Now you prepare that Fetzer valve with some 3-in-1 oil and some gauze pads, and I'm gonna need 'bout ten quarts of anti-freeze, preferably Prestone. No, no make that Quaker State."


Guess I needed a refresher course. Course, that manure spreader that jackknifed on the Santa Anna left a gawdaweful mess, you should see my shoes.

I love Fletch, great movie, thanks for the laugh Trigger!
A day in the Corps is like a day on the farm; every meal is a banquet, every paycheck a fortune, every formation a parade... The Marine Corps is a department of the Navy? Yeah...The Men's Department.
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