V-22 Osprey Tiltrotor

Tierra Del Fuego LJ!!!!

Interesting thoughts, all. From what I've read, the Army was on board with the Osprey many years ago, but bailed after it got to be too expensive. Lemonjello, I think a Spooky version of this aircraft would be awesome, but given the completely composite construction of the airframe, I doubt the real thing would stand the pounding. I was in NC when the two latest crashes happened, and I remember the dark cloud that hung over for weeks. As far as the at sea tests go, from what I've read, most of the problems first encountered the last time they were out have been resolved, and maintenance can be performed, depending on where the aircraft is spotted. Salbando, you're right about the rotor wash, I saw something on the internet that had a V-22 hovering in the desert, and as he decended- complete brownout. The V-22 was originally supposed to be pressurized with an NBC filtration system installed to protect the troops/crew. It has been removed, and the cabin will no longer be pressurized. Now, you have to stay below 10000 with a load of troops, so what does that do to your effective range? I also hear Bell is proposing a gunship version of the V-22 for escort missions. Exactly when that will happen is anybody's guess. Door guns were tried, but the nacelles are in the way of a door gun in helicopter mode, and in airplane mode, due to the close proximity of the rotors, the side door cannot be opened. The latest is that there is a completely NEW .50 cal in development specifically for the V-22. Any thoughts as to the price on that one? A nose turret was also tried, but due to weight constraints, and the fact that the turret could not be used on deck, that was scrapped. par429, most of the problems now I think have to do with all the redesigns that have come through in the last few years. That, and the fact that development was already so far along, and now all these changes have to take place. Meanwhile, the 46's aren't getting any younger. Some interesting info here, to be taken with a grain of salt I think, due to the author's apparent bias:
http://www.g2mil.com/V-22safety.htm

An a/c with a lot of potential, bet they said a lot of the same things about helo's when they first came out. Leave it with the troops to figure out a lot of this, they always have

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't remember the XV-15 aircraft having the problems the Osprey has had.

Does anyone make a kit of the XV-15 other than that 1/72 Anigrand kit? I'd like 1/48... I think I just came up with a way to make an AV-15 escort.

USMC




USAF




US Army




Israel


Arrangement


Here's what I did to it:
- Increased the width of the sponsons to allow external stores (6 Hellfire shown) and 1 40mm grenede launcher and 1 M203/M301 type gun

- Extended the nose to allow FLIR, TF/TA Radar and refueling probe (now suddenly this thing looks similar to a Hokum!)

- Increased tail area

- raised the wing to allow for some ability to fold and store on a ship

As/if I modify the drawing, I'll post updates

That is some sweet work, Trigger! I can definitely see the armed escort possibilities of that. Now, just need to find a kit in 1/48!

LJ

To my knowledge, there's no 1/48 scale kit, just a resin 1/72 kit from Hong Kong. Some of the mods would be "time-consuming" to incorporate into a resin kit to say the least and way above my modeling skills.

Well, I guess I'll keep an eye on any sales to pick up a couple of extra V-22s for future projects.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Remko I assume this is the right place to post this topic, although it's a matter of opinion what the Osprey actually is. Is it a helicopter or is it an aircraft... Anyway, I just received the book "Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey" by Bill Norton from AeroFax. I haven't read it completely of course, but paging through this book I already got some great ideas. Did you know that one of the very early mission profiles for the V-22 was VIP transport? At one point it was destined to replace/augment VH-3's and VH-60's for VMX. Unfortunately this was cancelled because of problems and delays in production. At this time the most likely winner for the new VIP aircraft would be the EH-101. But there's a very nice image of a "VV-22 Osprey" printed in this book. As well as a Medivac variant, the (also cancelled, although still very interesting) "SV-22" subhunter and "KV-22" tanker. I wish I had the time and space, but if I could I would get about 5 or six V-22 Ospreys in 1/72nd and paint and modify one of those in each of these varieties!! Still, I think I'll be getting the Italeri V-22 kit though. I would also like to know what you think of this. Should it be cancelled? I think not, it's a too interesting design and it has great promises for the future. Of course, there have been already too many casualties, and it is true that testing this aircraft is a dangerous job. But what did they expect, it's a totally new kind of machine, something unlike anything before. And when the first helicopters were built, they also contributed too many deaths in testing these new vehicles. Same goes for the aircraft. The idea has merit, and if it really comes into production/service, it will greatly enhance Marine, Airforce, Army and Naval operations. The biggest problem with the Osprey is it's price. It's costs are escalating rapidly. But this also is a result of poor politics and managing. The US Government should do it different. They agree on a price for the Osprey with the manufacturers, and that's what they will pay for it. If the manufacturer can make it cheaper (although still keep it's capabilities) than the rest is profit. If costs go up, well tough luck. Not our problem. The Dutch government did the very same with the new "De Zeven Provincien class" air defence frigate. A price was set, and that was final. Below this price would be profit, above it would be carried by the shipyard. Any thoughts on this? I'd also like to know what you think of the Italeri kit, and if there's anything better available. Thanks!! Remko

Hi, I first became aware of the V-22 when I read an article in a British "Girlie" magazine that had some very interesting comments by a Mr Terry Arnold, who, at that time was the Bell-Textron's "Tiltrotor Communications Manager" and he was asked if the situation at the American Consulate in Terahan in 1980 and the attempted rescue of the hostages would have been different if the V-22 had been in service and his reply was and I quote, ". We're really proud of the V-22's capabilities. It's everthing a military aircraft should be, and it's got tremendous civilian potential, which makes it even more valuable to our country in the long run. You don't need a runway, so it's possible to get in and out quickly, as in a hostage rescue situation. In that military operation, several "state-of-the-art" choppers were secretly sent into the Iranian desert in an opperation designed to spirit the American hostages out of the clutches of the Ayatollah. But the mission was scratched after one of the choppers developed engine trouble and a second chopper crashed during the rapid withdrawal and eight service men were killed". Apparently the choppers that were to affect the rescue were transported over in military transport aircraft, unloaded and re-assembled, taking a very long time from start to finish just to get them flying once they were there, where as, the V-22 could have been flown directly to Iran from the US, refueling in flight, effected the rescue before the Iranians knew what was happening and, have the rescued hostages on their way back to the U.S. In the article that was about the V-22, there were some pictures of the 'Osprey' in it prototype colours. Well, I searced everywhere for more images of the colour scheme and had no luck. I then wrote to Mr Arnold and explained that I had just bought the Italari Kit in 1/48 scale and was keen to colour it the same way. Mr Arnold very kindly sent me six, 8x10 colour photos of the V-22 in the prototype colour scheme. So now I have built two versions of the 'Osprey", one in prototype colours and the second is the 'up-dated' version by Italari, but I did the second one with the wing and blades in the 'ready to stow below decks' configuration in US Marine grey. So as I get better at this internet thing, I will post some pics of the two models. aramara

Always happy to see someone's work on this kit. I'll eventually get around to building mine up...one of these days...

These things are flying around here so much now, they've kind of faded into the background, just another bird in the busy skies over Camp Swampy.

Anybody know of any upgrade or detail kits for the 1/48 Testers/Italari kit?
Thinking about building this puppy after my CH-46 is done.

I've looked around the online stores and the only thing I find are painting masks for the 1/48 V-22. I'd be interested in getting some PE for mine as well, but I don't think we'll really see any until the final production version of the 1:1 bird is really rolling off the line and into squadron service. Then I imagine we'll start seeing some update/correction kits for this one.

Or, I could be completely wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

Yeah might have to wait,thanks for the info though.
Another question is about the canopy on the Osprey.My kit has a gold tinted canopy but dont see the gold tint on the vehicle itself in all the pictures I've seen of it.Does the bird have the gold tint?

I'm dead set against the V-22 and I'll tell you why it will never be a viable military aircraft. The two engines and rotors and all the tilting machinery are mounted on two axis at the extreme radius from the center ... the fulcrum. Anyone with a simple knowldge of leverage knows that the farther from the fulcrum that force is applied, the more effective the applied force becomes. For this simple reason, if any single component of either engine or rotor goes out of synch with the other one, the aircraft flips over and crashes because the pull on one side becomes greater by an exponential degree. This doesn't mean a component has to fail, it only needs to momentarily lose synchronization with the opposing engine or rotor. Simple things like a strong gust of wind can cause this delicate equilibrium to fail and throw the aircraft out of control. Consider, too, the amount of stress placed on the wing when the huge rotors, driven by powerful engines and under the forces of gyroscopic inertia, start to tilt forward to change the flight condition. Here again, a disymmetry of motion could twist the wing right off.
In a commercial state, where conditions are under better control and maintenance is constant, the V-22 might have a limited role, but as a military aircraft that must be robust and safe under extreme conditions, this poorly-designed deathtrap is no place to put our finest young Marines at risk. The only thing keeping it in the air is powerful politicians. The other services dumped it not because of the cost, but because they don't want people to die before they can even get to the fight.

You rotorheads out there know how fast things can go wrong with a sling-wing ... the V-22 makes it happen even faster.

QUOTE: Originally posted by squidsson2003 Yeah might have to wait,thanks for the info though. Another question is about the canopy on the Osprey.My kit has a gold tinted canopy but dont see the gold tint on the vehicle itself in all the pictures I've seen of it.Does the bird have the gold tint?

From this view, you can see the rainbow-colored spectrum from the anti-laser coating the production windscreens have:

So I don't think the gold tint you have is terribly accurate. Which kit is that again? My dad's 1/72 Osprey had a clear windscreen, while my Italeri 1/48 version comes with the smoke tinted canopy, which looks a little better, and is fine by me.

Found were Agusta/Bell are testing a civilian tilt-rotoer

think it could be used for military use also

QUOTE: Originally posted by AH1Wsnake QUOTE: Originally posted by squidsson2003 Yeah might have to wait,thanks for the info though. Another question is about the canopy on the Osprey.My kit has a gold tinted canopy but dont see the gold tint on the vehicle itself in all the pictures I've seen of it.Does the bird have the gold tint? From this view, you can see the rainbow-colored spectrum from the anti-laser coating the production windscreens have: So I don't think the gold tint you have is terribly accurate. Which kit is that again? My dad's 1/72 Osprey had a clear windscreen, while my Italeri 1/48 version comes with the smoke tinted canopy, which looks a little better, and is fine by me.

Thanks for the info and picture!This really helped me with my question.
I have the first 1/48 Testers kit that came out years ago.Looks like I might have to get the newer Italari kit.Seems like everyone says that its a more updated version.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MBT70 I'm dead set against the V-22 and I'll tell you why it will never be a viable military aircraft. The two engines and rotors and all the tilting machinery are mounted on two axis at the extreme radius from the center ... the fulcrum. Anyone with a simple knowldge of leverage knows that the farther from the fulcrum that force is applied, the more effective the applied force becomes. For this simple reason, if any single component of either engine or rotor goes out of synch with the other one, the aircraft flips over and crashes because the pull on one side becomes greater by an exponential degree. This doesn't mean a component has to fail, it only needs to momentarily lose synchronization with the opposing engine or rotor. Simple things like a strong gust of wind can cause this delicate equilibrium to fail and throw the aircraft out of control. Consider, too, the amount of stress placed on the wing when the huge rotors, driven by powerful engines and under the forces of gyroscopic inertia, start to tilt forward to change the flight condition. Here again, a disymmetry of motion could twist the wing right off. In a commercial state, where conditions are under better control and maintenance is constant, the V-22 might have a limited role, but as a military aircraft that must be robust and safe under extreme conditions, this poorly-designed deathtrap is no place to put our finest young Marines at risk. The only thing keeping it in the air is powerful politicians. The other services dumped it not because of the cost, but because they don't want people to die before they can even get to the fight. You rotorheads out there know how fast things can go wrong with a sling-wing ... the V-22 makes it happen even faster.

Doesn't all the above apply to the CH-46 and CH-47 also? Funny how people complain about putting Marines in a brand new aircraft that has probably undergone the most stringent testing ever but they have no problem with Marines flying around in 40 year old 46s (which also had more than their fair share of crashes (broke in half) when they were first fielded.

The '46 and '47 essentially hang underneath two rotors aligned on a common axis along the centerline of the fueslege, pulling it forward, not in opposition to a fulcrum. The Osprey's rotors not only are outboard of the fueselage and centerline, but mounted on wings which are the weakest part of the overall airframe structure. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the medium-lift fleet is woefully outdated and needs replacement. And yes ... who can forget all those sheared drive shafts and cracked fuselages in the CH-47As and the teething pains of the '46s ... which only reinforces my concerns about the vulnerability of the Osprey in actual service when the slide-rule boys aren't around to check the details. You are spot on about needing something new ... I just don't think Osprey is the answer.

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandadjohn Found were Agusta/Bell are testing a civilian tilt-rotoer... ...think it could be used for military use also

Hmmm... maybe there's the basis for an armed escort conversion. I'll have to look and see if anyone makes a kit of the BA609

QUOTE: Originally posted by MBT70 I'm dead set against the V-22 and I'll tell you why it will never be a viable military aircraft. ..snip

Surely you exaggerate. Modern computer control and stability augmentation systems make it possible to fly aircraft that are inherently unstable. There are several military aircraft in service today that are unstable, and all modern aircraft have stability augmentation systems. Also the V-22 is cross-shafted to prevent a power loss in one engine from causing a loss of control. A "strong gust" is not going to cause the V-22 to lose control. Sure, there have been plenty of technical challenges to overcome, but that's not too surprising trying to field a new technology.

Phil, a Navy "slide-rule boy"

One thing I think we have all forgotten on this topic is the civilian application for this type of aircraft. May private companies have expressed an interest in the civil use of a tilt-rotor but the cost would be prohibitive without the government(military) funding the R&D and development costs in the beginning.

Computer augmentation and redundant systems have significantly expanded the capabilities of many aircraft and some, like the F-117, could barely fly without it. The Osprey will be well-served with digital stabe and fly-by-wire. I sense that my position on the issue of the Osprey, however, has hit a few nerves and I'd rather post among friends than become a contentious, argumentive member of the group. So I'm just going to accept your comments and appreciate your insights and drop the issue. I value friendships more ....

I recall reading recently something about the Army starting to take interest in the Osprey program again now that it's been redesigned and the bugs seem to have been worked out. I can't remember where I read that and I'm not making that up to "stir the pot" either. Any truth to that rumor or am I going crazy (Gino, Sal - DON'T answer that!)

I haven't heard anything but it would make some sense at least for Special Ops

I don't recall any mention of SOAR operating it and Cobrahistorian and I were chewing the fat over that idea a while back. While your suggestion makes perfect sense (Air Force is doing that with the CV-22B), we had our doubts as to if the 160th would ever want to fly the Osprey. But what do I know, right? A faded black Osprey would look pretty mean though.

Grant
I really don't know where else the Army might use the Osprey except as a supply a/c(replacing the Sherpa). Like you I found like to hear what others might think or know

MBT70, I respect your opinion, you bring up good points, so don't feel you have to "conform" or be shouted down. History may prove you right and the V-22 will be a big bust, who knows? I, for one, would like to catch a ride on one, someday (round trip, please!) I've ridden in the majority of USMC vehicles, so I might as well add this one to the list.

I've heard that there are issues with attempting to fast-rope from the Osprey, that may make it less attractive to SpecOps units, but I think CSAR work would be right up it's alley?

QUOTE: Originally posted by LemonJello I've heard that there are issues with attempting to fast-rope from the Osprey, that may make it less attractive to SpecOps units, but I think CSAR work would be right up it's alley?

I've heard that rotor downwash is a big problem with FRIES. As for CSAR - the problem with that is the same with a "standard" infil/exfil - self defense. You can only put a gun on the rear ramp and that's a limited field of fire. And like putting a .50 in the main door of a Black Hawk, it works, but it hinders entry and exit. I can't help but notice that the Air Force isn't planning on using the CV-22 as an HH-60 replacement and is instead looking at the US101 or getting stretched Pave Hawks.

Now, civilian SAR is another thing. If the Osprey doesn't turn out to be a white-elephant-flying-coffin, then it could turn out to be a great platform for the USCG. (Provided of course they actually get any funding in our lifetime.)

Don't get me wrong, I want the Osprey to be a great machine, I like the idea of the potential, but I have my doubts in the design. Only time will tell.

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandadjohn Grant I really don't know where else the Army might use the Osprey except as a supply a/c(replacing the Sherpa). Like you I found like to hear what others might think or know

Same thiing crossed my mind - but that's a pretty expensive Sherpa replacement. What would the Army use the Osprey for - that's the $20K question for the day.