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Whats the bast ATTACK Helicopter.

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Whats the bast ATTACK Helicopter.
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 29, 2005 11:48 PM
Im sorry for missunderstanding it was my foult What I ment was The best attack helicopter
from gene
PS. Im ShermanBattleofthebulge brother Gene I write on his name because I can use only one E mail adress and I cant make my own profile.
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  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Sunday, October 30, 2005 12:46 AM
Ah, best attack helicopter...

Well, although I am partial to the Apache, which is arguably the best in the world right now, I'd have to say that the best ever is the one that started it all, the first TRUE attack helicopter, the AH-1G.

But the Apache's better than the SuperCobra Tongue [:P]
*donning kevlar and IBA now...
"1-6 is in hot"
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Posted by intruder_bass on Sunday, October 30, 2005 12:54 AM
KA-50 for sure!

Apache vs. Havoc vs. Hokum vs. Tiger. Which is the most deadly? Attack helicopters are fast moving, low flying and lethal combat aircraft. They are high-speed forces capable of delivering a heavy punch against armored vehicles; while not having to worry about impassable terrain. But which is the best attack helicopter in the world?

Contenders for this come primarily from the United States (AH-64 Apache) and Russia (the Mi-28 Havoc and the Ka-50/52 Hokum), and the Eurocopter Tiger from France and Germany. These helicopters are all lethal; they are capable of destroying anywhere form eight to 24 tanks in a single sortie; anywhere from 25 to 80 percent of a standard Russian tank battalion (31 tanks). They also can carry unguided rockets (usually 2.75-inch or 3.15-inch) for use against soft targets like trucks or infantry.

The Russians designed two top-rate attack helicopters. The Mi-28 Havoc is a direct successor to the famous Mi-24 Hind. The Havoc carries up to 16 AT-6 Spiral or 32 (!) AT-9 Vikhr anti-tank missiles, up to four 20-round 3.15-inch rocket pods, or a mixture. It also has a powerful 30mm cannon, which is also used on the BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicle. It can hit targets as far as 4 kilometers away. The Mi-28 has a top speed of 300 kilometers per hour, and a range of 460 kilometers.

The other Russian design is the Ka-50 Hokum. It also can carry 24 (!) Vikhr missiles, four 20-round rocket pods, or a mixture. The Hokum also can carry the AA-11/R-73 Archer air-to-air missiles, which makes the Hokum a very capable threat against opposing attack helicopters. The 30mm 2A42 is also mounted on the Hokum, albeit more like a fighters cannon. The Hokums top speed is 350 kilometers per hour, and it has a combat radius of 250 kilometers.

The AH-64 Apache is slower that either of the Russian helicopters (296 kilometers per hour), but features more range (520 kilometers). It also only carries 16 Hellfire anti-tank missiles, 76 2.75-inch rockets, or a mixed load. It has a 30mm gun, but the M230 is not as powerful as the 2A42. That said, it holds more than twice as many rounds (1200) as the Ka-50s mount (500), and nearly five times as many as the Mi-28s (250). The Apache has been exported to the UK, Israel, Greece, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, and the Netherlands. It also has proven itself in Desert Storm, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Eurocopter has built the Tiger, which is a versatile helicopter for both observation and attack duties. It carries eight anti-tank missiles (Trigat, HOT, TOW, or Hellfire). One version has a 30mm cannon with 450 rounds. It has a top speed of 322 kilometers per hour and a range of 800 kilometers. It is in service with France, Germany, Spain, and Australia.

Which is the best of these? Judging by performance specifications, the Ka-50 is the best barely edging out the Tiger. That said, the AH-64 Apache, however, has a combat record in four conflicts, and unlike either Russian helicopter, it has secured a wide variety of export orders. Only the Tiger comes close, but it lacks the firepower and the combat record of the Apache. The Apache is probably the most proven design of these, and has the fewest question marks regarding its weapons or electronics.
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  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Sunday, October 30, 2005 1:32 AM
Intruder,

The Ka-50 has been touted quite a bit in these forums and elsewhere, but the Russian Army has just put the Mi-28 into production over it. What's up with that? The -28 just seems to be a poor knock-off of the Apache. Honestly, the Ka-50 is an impressive machine, but I don't see how those contra-rotating rotors were going to work when someone is shooting at them.

Also, you need to take into account the next-generation of AH-64 weaponry. The day of the "unguided" 2.75" rocket is rapidly fading. New rockets which are in production now have given an even greater precision attack capability to modern US attack helicopters, giving them up to 76 guided missiles at their fingertips. Pretty impressive. While the Russian helicopters may be faster, I wonder how they compare against the Apache for maneuverability. I've seen the -64 do some pretty amazing things.
"1-6 is in hot"
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  • From: Seattle
Posted by Papa-Echo-64 on Sunday, October 30, 2005 1:54 AM
AH-G1!!!!!! Cool [8D]
Straighten up and fly right.....
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  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Sunday, October 30, 2005 7:23 AM
I could not pin it down to one, I would say both the Cobra and the Apache are the best, both have different mission and capabilities and are good at preforming those missions
  • Member since
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:27 AM
Unfortunately, there aren't very many people who have flown both the Apache and W-model Cobra to give a good comparison of the two. The Apache happens to be what I know, so for me, it's the one.

If I could assemble my own ideal gunship it would be an A-model with just a few Longbow features (the FCR isn't one of them), along with Gen III FLIR, up-to-date ASE gear and an IZLID laser for the gun. The AH-1Z looks to me like a real attack pilot's kind of ride, but I'll wait until the line pilots get to handle it in the field before I form an opinion.

BTW, I wouldn't write off unguided rockets. Precision guided stuff is great, but sometimes you need something that doesn't depend on lasers, environmental conditions, and scatter-brained frontseaters. Give me a CCIP (the AH-1Z has one, according to the press releases), plenty of cheap simple rockets to practice with, and I'll be my own precision guidance system.
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Posted by intruder_bass on Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:52 AM
Cobrahistorian,

Here we are again.Wink [;)] The same old story. Cold war is over but the propoganda and way of thinking is still the same. Open your mind. I now that you guys are real patriots and better believe to what they tell you from above then to face the reality. No offence but I am pretty sure you think everything in your country is the best just becuz its AmericanWink [;)] Well its not a bad point but, comonWink [;)]
First of all there is NO official information that Russian Army has put the Mi-28 into production over Ka-50/52. Both of them were successfully tested in action in Chechnia and other Kavkaz countries against terrorist formation. Yes, its not the same as war in PG but its enough to say that KA-50's contra-rotating rotors work much better when they shoot at them then the one on ApacheWink [;)]
Maneuverability is outstanding:
"Advantages of aerodynamically symmetric coaxial rotor have appeared obvious. Such rotor provides simplicity of operation of helicopter in manual and automatic mode, an excellent maneuverability, take off and landing at a wind of any force and a direction. Besides the coaxial rotor is capable to raise fighting survivability of the helicopter, to provide compactness of transmission and to lower power losses of engines.
Su-27 Has amazed experts and spectators with " Pugachev's cobra ". Ka-50 has its own flight trick. So-called "hollow" can be done only on this machine. This figure provides to the helicopter the concentrated fire on the dot target. At the same time the machine concerning the opponent constantly moves on an azimuth and a corner of a place - in "hollow", that extremely complicates an aiming on the machine.
Ka-50 is capable to move sideways - to slide with a speed of 80 km/hours, and backwards - with a speed of 90 km/hours. Change of a direction of movement on opposite takes just a moment. The unique helicopter in the world, capable within 12 hours "to hang" on an exact one place, is too Ka-50"
Also, you need to take into account that Kamov company is upgraiding their helo tooWink [;)]
It whould be very interesting if they make an flight exercise between Ka-50 and Ah-64 like the one with Su-27 vs F-15 in LangleyWink [;)]

Andy



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  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Sunday, October 30, 2005 11:23 AM
Andy, Andy, Andy.....

Firstly, I can't put my hands on it right now (my stuff's all packed up and I'm headed to Ft. Rucker) but I believe in last month's Air Forces Monthly, the Russian Army announced the contract for the Mi-28 over the Ka-50.

Just because I am an American (citizen, soldier, etc...) does not mean I automatically think that we've got the best stuff. Some of it, sure, but not all. The Ka-50, as I've said is an impressive machine, but I just don't see how a coaxial rotor system can stand up to cannon fire... you're bound to lose something. For ASW operations, that's one thing, but if someone's shooting at you, you're doomed.

Plus, with a single crewman, I just see it as a distinct disadvantage. You and I could go on for hours. Point is, the Apache's been tested and proven, the Mil company saw that, and used it and came up with a very similar machine. The Ka-50 is innovative, but if the excrement ever hit the whirling blades, I think it'd be hurting pretty quickly.

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 30, 2005 11:36 AM
Intruder_bass, despite your description, I'm a little hazy on what exactly the "hollow manuever" is. What's your reference source? I'd like to read up on it. Same thing on the combat action reports of the Ka-50/52 and Mi-28.

As for a fly-off between the -64 and Ka-50, it would be interesting. The coaxial system has it's advantages, at least in theory. (If somebody could provide insight as to what they're like to maintain, I'd like to hear it). But consider these points:

--You can make any manuever you want... all your opponent has to do is pedal turn to keep you within his weapon's slew limits.

--Nobody is going to manuever faster than a gun turret can track, and if bullets won't work, a shotgun blast from a flechette rocket probably will.

--No rotary-wing aircraft can outmanuever a missile.

--Like fixed wing ACM, who sees who first is the most critical factor. The most dangerous opponent might be a lift bird with four alert sets of eyes and miniguns on both sides.

Besides, the real arena for these aircraft isn't air-to-air, but air-to-ground. Both the Apache and Cobra have proven they can both give and take a pounding, despite the relative vulnerability of having a tail rotor. Russian aircraft have a reputation for, if nothing else, being tough as nails, so I don't doubt that Hokums and Havocs are the same.

  • Member since
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Posted by intruder_bass on Sunday, October 30, 2005 3:50 PM
Guys,
I am not here for arguing. If you wanna know more about Ka-50 advantages and possibilities comparing to Apache I suggest you to read not only Air Forces Monthly or some other US publication. My native language is not English but I if I wanna know something about US helos - I prefer to get firsthand info from original sources - yes, I spend my time with dictionary, I try to get in touch with ppl here, I read books, I search web...and finally I get what I wont. But it seems to me that its much easier for you just to believe the first magazine article you find. Of course it will tell you that Ka-50 is a piece of crap comparing to Apache! We were enemies for God sakes! When I was studying in Maritime Academy - I was taught how to search and destroy American submarines! And it was just few years ago! Like Gino said (and its true) - "old habits"Wink [;)]
So what you expect from them to say? Truth? That in 1992 in Langley the basic modification of Flanker had beaten F-15 D Eagle in all training flights?
Or that Ka-50 is faster, more powerful, more armed, and more manoeuvrable then Apache?
Yes, Russia has just few of them due to economical crisis nowadays that’s why they've chosen cheaper Mi-28 for now... But its not over with Ka-50. The competition between them is still going on.
The question was "what is the best (not proven in wars or most selling) attack helicopter". I give my vote to KA-50/52

By the way according to Kamov test burou - the rotor system of Ka-50 can resist the 12.5 mm burst and the canopy up to 20mm, all other sides of cockpit - up to 30 mm. Thats why they call it a flying tank
Sorry for being a little strict)))
Now I’ll get back to less arguable modelling subjects
Andy
  • Member since
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  • From: Connecticut
Posted by DBFSS385 on Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:45 PM
One more thing to consider is who is in the Hot seat would make a good helo great and a bad helo better.. A fine example is the Mig 15 vs the F 86.. The Mig was a better aircraft in several ways but the F 86 ruled it in combat.. It's the training and experience that make a "better" aircraft.. The Apache and the Cobra series are un-matched when it comes to it's combat abilitys due in a great part to who is flying them..
You can go on and on ( T72 vs M1 Abrams etc..
Be Well/DBF Walt
  • Member since
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  • From: Connecticut
Posted by DBFSS385 on Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:50 PM
Oh and one more thing. If Canada had a choice to purchase Apaches or KA 50s I doubt the KAs would be purchased. Same reason why they fly American fighters and Helos. They want the best. You really can't blame them.
Be Well/DBF Walt
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 30, 2005 5:14 PM
Andy,
First off Air Forces Monthly is a British publication. I might add that it has proven to be an excellent source of open resource intel and is rarely biased.
Secondly how can you NOT take into account an aircraft (or any weapon system's) combat record when comparing which is the best. Besides, as a few have already said...best at what?

Where did you get the Langley SU-27 vs F-15 info? Never heard that before. I did read about the exercise in India where Indian SU-27s got the best of some Alaskan based F-15s. Of course the F-15s were not allowed to use the AIM-120 nor any other BVR shots and were usually 2V4, but that's another story. You might be interested to know that the squadron that participated in that exercise is based up here in Alaska and I had access to the hotwash results.

You said you prefer to get your information right from the "horses mouth". Well Andy, who do you think you're getting it from here on the forums? Many of us are speaking from first hand knowledge on particular aircraft (me-Pavehawk, Jon-Apache/Cobra, John-Hueys, Frank-CH-47). I know that I for one have given YOU information based on my own experiences in Somalia and elsewhere for your MH-60L build. If any Hokum or Havoc drivers or maintainers want to chime in....Oh wait...never mind...there's only a handfull. Just kidding..kind of.
Combat performance for the Havoc and Hokum are purely theoretical and what little exists is based on a few of them flying in Chechnya or in tests. Both of these aircraft have been around for a while and it does beg the question...why hasn't ANY other country purchased them?

Anyway, just be careful when you automatically assume that we are answering based purely on some patriotic sense of responsibility to defend "American Made" gear.

Besides..."Which is the best attack helicopter?" That's an easy one. It's the one that comes up on your freq. answering the call for fire support when the fhit has hit the san. Big Smile [:D]
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Posted by intruder_bass on Sunday, October 30, 2005 6:36 PM
QUOTE: You said you prefer to get your information right from the "horses mouth". Well Andy, who do you think you're getting it from here on the forums? Many of us are speaking from first hand knowledge on particular aircraft (me-Pavehawk, Jon-Apache/Cobra, John-Hueys, Frank-CH-47)


Exactly! Thats why I am here! And I really appriciate your help!

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  • From: Georgia
Posted by Screaminhelo on Sunday, October 30, 2005 8:15 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by salbando
Besides..."Which is the best attack helicopter?" That's an east one. It's the one that comes up on your freq. answering the call for fire support when the fhit has hit the san. Big Smile [:D]


Amen to that!

It is very hard to compare two aircraft when one has seen extensive combat and the other little or none as in the Apache and Hokum. It is also hard to compare two very similar and familiar aircraft when they are employed differently (Apache/Cobra).

The Ka-50 is definately a very impressive machine but I have some reservations about the coaxil rotor in the hangar. This adds one more dimension to one of the worlds greatest physics labs (the modern helicopter). I do know a few who have experience maintaining Russian helos and I am not sure that I would want to tackle the preventive maintenance on that one, let alone balance it.

I am by no means writing the Hokum off, I have seen the performance figures and they are amazing. If the performance can be maintained on and operational level it would be the one to beat but it hasn't seen any extensive service peacetime or wartime. I am waiting to see what these things do when they start getting a few thousand hours on a bunch. That is when you know if you have a good one or not.

Mac

Mac

I Didn't do it!!!

  • Member since
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  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Sunday, October 30, 2005 8:27 PM
Andy,

Firstly, this is a friendly forum, and even though we may "argue" believe me it is intended in the best of spirits. As Sal has pointed out, a lot of us have firsthand knowledge of the aircraft we speak of (Glider's got much more Apache knowledge then I do, since I haven't started flying them just yet!)

I frankly appreciate the differing points of view on this and other forums. It allows me to see how others think, how they view my particular points of view, and makes me think about why I feel the way I do. Always a good thing.

But, you're right. The question was "which is the BEST", and that certainly is a question of opinion. Yours is no more or less valid than mine is!
"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
    November 2013
Posted by intruder_bass on Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:52 PM
))))
I truly hope that this difference in our opinions on particular subject will not effect our comunication and intercourse. I am really thankfull to all of you guys, and its a great pleasure for me to be here on this forum with you.
You helped me a lot - and I'll never forget this.
Sorry if I said somthing wrong - I did not mean to offence anybody

Andy
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 30, 2005 11:49 PM
Andy,
Not at all. Spirited comments on this forum are the norm, and we can all learn from each other...your MH-60L amazes me!

Don't sweat it.

But I will draw the line at "intercourse".Big Smile [:D]
  • Member since
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  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Monday, October 31, 2005 3:14 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by salbando

But I will draw the line at "intercourse".Big Smile [:D]

Sal!!! English lesson for the day. Give me a 4 letter word, ending in 'k', that means intercourse. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg] No, no, no!!!!! Not that one!!!!! Censored [censored] It's TALK, silly!!! Approve [^]
Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 31, 2005 10:54 AM
what's this got to do with modelling?

(hehehehe, couldn't resist)
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 31, 2005 11:02 AM
Thanks guysBig Smile [:D]
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  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Monday, October 31, 2005 11:56 AM
not a problem, I come here to learn from others, to help when I can and to have a good time
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  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Monday, October 31, 2005 12:06 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by grandadjohn

not a problem, I come here to learn from others, to help when I can and to have a good time

I couldn't have said it better, John.
Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
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Posted by supercobra on Monday, October 31, 2005 12:33 PM
Of course the best attack helicopter is the Bell AH-1W SuperCobra (in the humble unbiased opinion of someone who has flown them for the last 17 years).
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 31, 2005 12:38 PM
Apache all the way
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 31, 2005 3:39 PM
Randie,
Sorry dude...one track mind. Wink [;)] That's the other thing I love about this forum...no pulled punches and lots of kidding around.

granddadjohn summed it up best.Thumbs Up [tup]
  • Member since
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  • From: Modeling anything with "MARINES" on the side.
Posted by AH1Wsnake on Monday, October 31, 2005 4:32 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by supercobra

Of course the best attack helicopter is the Bell AH-1W SuperCobra (in the humble unbiased opinion of someone who has flown them for the last 17 years).


Sign - Ditto [#ditto]Big Smile [:D]

 

"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and those who have met them in battle. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
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  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Monday, October 31, 2005 7:25 PM
Think I see a couple of bias answers(quess you guy's have the right though)
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 31, 2005 8:38 PM
Alright, there's only one way to settle this. One of you Snake drivers come on over to Taji so I can hop in the seat and do some hunting in it myself. It might take two or three (dozen) flights.

So many aircraft, so few opportunities to fly them all...
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