Vietnam Huey

Howie,

  Did you ever see a mounting system called a "Sagami" mount.  It was supposedly devised by a soldier of the same name in the early 60's and allowed for an M60A to be mounted in the door  and folded out of the way for egress of troops.  All info I can find indicates it was only used on short bodies Hueys (B's mostly).  I have seen photos of it on gunships as well as the earliest slicks (before the D model come in country).   It looks as though you could make one fairly easily from stretched sprue, if you had some skills (which is why I don't have one yet).  I haven't been able to find any links to photos on the web, but you can see numerous photos of the mounting system in the Huey Gunships walk around by Squadron I mentioned several posts ago.  Page 26 has a particularly good shot of this gun mount.  I'd really appreciate any info on the use of this gun mount.

    Thanks,

         Ray
 

Howie,

WELCOME HOME!

I've been a bit busy with remodeling the house on my days off from work so haven't been online much.  Saw your previous note about the large ammo can for your M-60.  We had them too and they were the "mini-gun" cans of 7.62 ammon.  I had a Dr Pepper can for my "ammo feed".  One of the taller C-Ration cans worked well too.  I was with the 174th AHC up at Chu Lai in the summer of "71".   www.174ahc.org  Your memory isn't too bad! 

Just a thought - the Ia Drang was the first major action - to the best of my knowledge we only had early Huey B/C models serving as slicks and as gunships at the time.  Probably 'free/bungee' 60's then...

The UH-1D was fielded in late '62.  There were both B/C gunships and D model slicks at the battle of Ia Drang/LZ X-Ray in Nov '65. 

Pics from LZ X-Ray showing UH-1Ds.

I believe when the D/H's arrived the B/Cs became gunships - I thought until replaced by D/H gunships and then Cobras but a friend of mine flew gunships B/C's long after I came home - 1972.  So a logical, chronological - order - is not logical!

The B/C was retained as a gunship since it could carry a wide range of munitions and still carry a few troopers if needed.  They also were kept around to augment the Cobras which were not fielded till '66.  The H model was fielded in late '67.  The US never used the D/H model as a gunship.  The Aussies did use the D/H as a gunship called the Bushranger with miniguns just behind the pilots doors and dual M60's on a pintle mount along with rockets at the doorgunners' positions. 

Welcome home, Mel!

You've got my favorite shirt on in your photo - please tell the guys what it says!

And much of memory is going, going...  but the photos and notes I took help jog my memory now, plus "I was just there last night..."

Ray - sorry, my unit didn't have that gun mounting and I'm not familiar with it exceot from building models, I know they used it on Chinooks and the Marines used it on their H-34s, or something similar.

Gino - never say never, trust me!  My Co. had a D/H (H I think) gunship.  Even though C/227 AHB 1^st Cav Div was a slick company, one of our duties was for two ships to fly up to a neighboring base camp and stay overnight.  One had a makeshift temporary hook up with parachute flares, the other H was hooked up as a gunship.  When (not if) the base camp took incoming overnight, we'd scramble.  When we saw mortar tube or rocket tube flashes we dropped flares and the gunship let them have it.  They had a huge spotlight and a minigun next to it in the ship's lefthand open cargo doorway.  I believe a starlight (night vision) scope was mounted above the minigun.  Everything on the gunship was bolted to the floor - the gun on a tripod mount.  I thought it was something they rigged up just in my co. but one of the Sqn books has a picture of one on the ground, with a gunner kneeling behind the gun.

Matter of fact I like the Sqn books a lot for reference.

Nice photos, Gino! 

Also in researching, watch out for errors.  You can't even watch History Channel w/o slapping your forehead and saying, ‘what'd they say?'  And you never know with published stuff - ofttimes somebody picks up what somebody else put out and has no idea it was in error, so they pass along the error forever more.

I think you said it earlier, Gino - just build and be happy, don't count rivets... or something to that effect.  I couldn't agree more!

Mel - how young and dumb were your guys?  We called the bullet proof vets (the hard, stiff curved ones) ‘chicken plates' and hence the macho, ‘I don't need no stinkin chicken plate!'  Did you guys have more brains by 1971?

Clear right!

Howie

Howie,

  My father mentioned those armed long fuselage Hueys.  Weren't they called Fireflys or something like that?  They were also occasionally armed with 50 cals as I recall from my refs.  Also, there was the MAD (Morter Air Delivery) system that was carried by H models.  Apparently the VNAF preferred arming their H models with miniguns on pintles instead of 60's and 7 shot rocket pods. The more I dig, the more I think there is no armamant combination some Huey didn't sport at some time during Vietnam.  I TOTALLY agree with you, never say never!

         Ray

Hey There

Here is the UH-1D/H Gunship version we are talking about

They where called UH-1D/H "Nighthawk"

I have seen pics with them having .50 cal M60 and also Miniguns with the Light mounted aswell ( not all on the same bird, but in different configuration).

HTH

Robert

Yes, I have seen the Fireflies, or Nighthawks, etc.  They are not true Gunships though.  By Gunship I mean similarly outfitted and employed as the UH-1B/C gunships.  Fitted with forward firing, semi-fixed weapons and employed in a fire support role all the time by an attack helo unit.  The Fireflies, and other one-off, specially constructed birds were mostly unit-built on helos designated as slicks or an excess helo that was built up and had limited use.  I still contend that the US did not use D/H models as dedicated gunships.

I am fully aware of the pitfalls of some resources sources.  The History channel is entertainment and should never be used as a sole research tool.

"I think you said it earlier, Gino - just build and be happy, don't count rivets... or something to that effect.  I couldn't agree more!"

 The above wasn't me.  I am definitely into making my models as historically accurate as possible.  Maybe not a rivet counter, but close to it. 

Has anyone got a picture of the control panel on the ceiling in the UH-1H cockpit?

Andy

For those of you that don't know the the famous quote by Joe Galloway during an interview for a "Huey" special on the History Channel a few years ago refering to Helicopter Pilots and Crew Members, "They were a special breed of madmen.  One of God's lunatics!".   It was "adopted" by the Vietnam Helicopter Crew Members Association and it is one of their shirts I'm wearing in the "avtar".  If the "shoe fits"!  Heh, heh!  I have my 174th "Witch Doctor" patch pined on it also.

Melgyver wrote:

For those of you that don't know the the famous quote by Joe Galloway during an interview for a "Huey" special on the History Channel a few years ago refering to Helicopter Pilots and Crew Members, "They were a special breed of madmen.  One of God's lunatics!".   It was "adopted" by the Vietnam Helicopter Crew Members Association and it is one of their shirts I'm wearing in the "avtar".  If the "shoe fits"!  Heh, heh!  I have my 174th "Witch Doctor" patch pined on it also.

Bruce Crandall will receive his Medal of Honor on 2-26-2007 for his actions in the Ia Drang Valley , it is being upgraded from the DSC. Ed Freeman got his Medal of Honor in 2001 for the same action.

well, speaking as a member of generation x who's father came home in 1971 when I was 20 months old, please know that I've lived in the shadow of the blade my whole life and have always felt the vets of that war deserve so much more than they got, they also deserve a whole lot more historically accurate documentation than exists........

Mel

I couldnt agree more, i think the media caused far more silent casualties than the NVA/VC ever could. would the brave men who served in WWII still have recieved those medals if the same media crews from Vietnam had been there. people had never seen real war on the tv and couldnt handle it. To me all of you who served in Vietnam are heroes.

Just some info for those that dont know, Big Blu 82 or (Daisy cutter) was a 15000 lb bomb that was used to create a quick landing zone for helicopters, it had a 38 inch long 'daisy cutter' fuse extension to trigger an explosion above ground, to increase destructive power and to avoid making a crater.

Andy

shadow 4 wrote:

John, they also rolled the 10,000 pound daisy cutter out of the back of the C-130 on a chute.  What year was yours and who did you serve with?  Shadow 4. 69-71. U.S.Army

Active duty 1968-71:Basic training at Ft. Bliss, AIT at Ft. Rucker, Korea 2nd Avn Bn 2nd ID, Ft. Stewart HHD, 5th A/C Maint Bn, Germany Baumholder HHC 2nd Bde, 8th ID

Co. Nat. Guard: 1971-80, 1157th Avn Co(Atk Hel) later Co D 40th Avn Bn. Picture I used in the other thread was UH-1M, 15145 during that time peroid. Hope I answer your question

By the luck of the big computer in DC, I was not sent to Vietnam

Just a quick question, are the poles that hold the canvass seats in the back of the UH-1H/D silver or grey ??

Andy

The large seat support poles that run from the floor to the ceiling are gray.  Sometimes the short poles under the seats were silver, mostly gray.  The 2 small brackets with 6 sets of holes on the large support poles were for the latch attachments to install litters in the Medevac versions.

Has anyone got a picture of the control panel on the ceiling in the UH-1H cockpit?

Andy

Andy

Lou Drendel's HUEY Squadron/Signal book* has a picture of the control panel on the ceiling 

but it's a B/C... All of the poles/tubing frame for the passenger area seats that I saw in 

person or photos were grey, as was the entire compartment including the sound proofing 

fabric - appx FS 36231 Dk gull gray (which isn't dark, it's a medium shade)...

Thanx Mel - I never knew what those brackets were for medevac litters!

Gino & Andy:  Wayne Mutza's WALK AROUND UH-1 GUNSHIPS* is a great pictorial reference 

incl the overhead panel, seats, etc. But on one pg he states to the effect that the only 

long-fuselage (D/H) heavily armed Hueys were RAAF and VNAF but a couple of pages later he says, 

"Long-fuselage Huey variants were designed primarily for the troop transport role; however, 

they qualified as gunships when equipped with offensive armament." It depends on which of

his definitions you want to accept! 

In Squadron's GUNSLINGERS IN ACTION, they tell the history of arming helicopters because 

it didn't take long to realize the bad guys weren't going to let you come and go as you 

pleased unmolested.  They even armed those little bubble Bell OH-13s - and on the other 

extreme were the Chinook Guns A Go-Go!  I have no argument that my company's ‘slicks' 

with the XM-23 M-60 armament was defensive.  But from the day they installed the minigun, 

searchlight (from Sheridan tanks!) and night vision scope with Army standardized equipment 

and mountings, on one of my company's slicks (which wasn't a one of a kind) until the day it 

went down killing the entire crew, that ship was a gunship. So were the D/Hs with twin M-60s,

 twin .50 cal, etc.  

Clear right!

Howie

Howie,

  Personally, I have no problem with considering Firefly ships and other specially armed long fuselage Hueys gunships.  I just wish kit manufacturers wouldn't put an XM-21 or XM-6 system on their long bodied US Army Huey kits.   I have no doubt they do this to entice modelers who want their models to all be gunships, but it just ain't right!  My generation has enough troubles trying to understand the true history of the Vietnam War without the missinformation provided by the kit manufacturers.  Actually, it would be great if they would make long fuselage Hueys with some of the exotic weapons systems we've been discussing here. I have never seen a model of one of these unique weapons configuartions.  Has anyone else?  In the end, though, I find modeling is the best vehicle for me to understand the history of the war.  I can't even begin to tell you how much I have learned while doing the research on the Huey and how much more repect I have for all you guys who were there.

      Ray
 

Mel

Thanks for that, i couldnt tell from the pictures, i have finished scratch building one of the seats ,2 more and 2 of those support poles to go :o\

Howie

Thanks for the info, i will keep hunting for the control panel photo in color, the nighthawk would make a great model, would just need to get a sheridan in same scale for the searchlight

Andy

Ray

Well said mate

Here's another of the Nighthawk/Firefly ships.  Though you all might find it intersting. 

Another interesting D/H model Huey with a window removed for firing the M60.

Another D/H model showing the "Sagami" mounting system I mentioned earlier in this post.

Yet another D/H model with a 50 cal in door.

and another

Rotorwash,

Those pictures are of an early "D" judging by the intake scoops aft of the transmission.  The older flight helmet dates it also.  The .50 cal. wasn't widely used because the recoil really played hell on the airframe.  They definitely gave you some "stand off " firepower and were used on a lot of "night hawk" birds which were few and far in between.   

Mel,

  Your right, as usual.  Those birds are all from around '65-'66 so they almost had to be D's.  I just try to hedge my bets.  The high vis paint schemes also date the photos to the early vietnam era.  Always looking for new ways to tell D's and H's apart, though.  Thanks.  

     Ray

A question for the door gunners.

I have noticed in a few UH-1H pictures (mostly Air Cav ones) that only the left side door gunner has an ejection bag attached to his M60!

The only reason i can think of for this is.. if spent shells are ejected from the right side of a 60 and if a gunner on the left fires forward of the helicopter the spent shells fly into the crew compartment.

Where as the shells from the gun on the right side of the helo fly back away from the compartment so he doesnt need the ejection bag.

can anyone confirm this?

Its just something i have spotted and if it was standard practice to do this i thought it worth mentioning for model accuracy.

Andy