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Unusual Vietnam Hueys

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  • Member since
    August 2008
  • From: Brandon, MS
Posted by loachman on Sunday, August 7, 2011 6:00 PM

The gun system used on the Cayuse and Kiowa was the M27 system.  It had the M134 mounted (a great deal of info is out there about the variants).  I never personally saw rocket tubes mounted on the Vietnam era OH-6A.  I have seen pictures of such arrangements.  Most of this was protype or developed when the 6 was sent to special ops.  I have seen the XM8 system-M129 40 mm grenade launcher mounted on basically the same mount.  Somewhere online, I have seen pictures of this and the earlier Hughes M75. 

The OH-6 had a derated engine  due to transmission limitations.  I feel that it had sufficient power for what it was designed to do.  In a hot, high humidity, adverse density altitude environments, it held its own.  Even in the ARNG, in the south, we ofen operated in a less than ideal DA environment.  A good book to read is "LOACH' by Wayne Mutza.  It contains a lot of good factual info about the Cayuse.  

Never personally saw a standard Army 205 body outfitted with a gun system like those pictured.  I understand that there were protypes developed and again, seen pictures of VNAF and U.S. field developed  and modified long bodies with a variety of armaments.  Some seem feasible, some not so-airframe problems, etc.

Spent cases created some problems occassionally, however, some of the equipment solutions: catch bags, deflectors, etc. didn't always work as designed-there are designers and there are builders.  I have seen field expedient wire shields on M16 and M21 systems on gunships and behind some door gun stations.  Most of that was a long time ago.  What I saw after Vietnam were basically standard issue pieces of armament mounted by the book.

 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:55 PM

Wow, seems like you've come around much. Thanks for the details and of course your service! Always great to talk to BTDT people.

I've a question you may can answer concerning the armament of some Loaches as I got varying comments about this. Some of them sported a minigun (M21 subsystem with M134) and some additionally a three-tube rocket-launcher. I was told that most pilots hated them because in hot and high areas the OH-6 behaved like a "pig" with the extra load while others say they thought the helicopter was actually overpowered. What is your impression/opinion on this?

-----

Somewhere in this thread somebody mentioned the forward mounted M6 subsystems on the longer fuselage models. I was told that the reason for the positioning was that spend casing could actually hit the tail-rotor under some circumstances and that this was countered by moving the system forward. It may also helped to stop jams in the chutes because the ammo boxes could be placed on a more convinient position.

  • Member since
    August 2008
  • From: Brandon, MS
Posted by loachman on Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:00 PM

I was not rated.  Carried 67 CMF MOS's - 67M (Sioux), 67N (Huey/Iroquois), 67V (Cayuse), 68J (Aircraft Armament), 67T (Blackhawk), and 67Z (Aircraft Maintenance Senior Sargeant).  Served as repairman, crew cheif, observer, etc.  Retired Sergeant Major (41 years-Active, Reserve, and National Guard).  Worked with a whole bunch of Enlisted Soldiers, Warrants and RLO's- many great, some good, and a few that needed guidance.  Went to pasture well before the enlisted aviation MOS's changed to 15 series.  I like the idea of common numbers across the rank structure. 

Everyone knew that the Hughes OH-6A was my favorite.  Was in the MSARNG when the Loaches went away.  We got to hang onto them a lot longer than many others who appreciated their ability to do what they were designed to do.  Several MS Loaches (series 3) wound up as special ops aircraft.  Good folks know good airplanes.  Went to pasture well before enlisted aviation MOS's changed to 15 series. Enjoying being an OLD F--T.  Life is a lot slower, except when the grandkids are around. 

 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Sunday, August 7, 2011 3:22 PM

Thanks but credits go to the guys who took the pics, scanned and then uploaded them.

-----

An unusual combo with XM14 (pod contains an M3 HMG with 750rounds) and XM157 (seven-tube rocket launcher).

Note: This seems to be the same ship (Super Hog) shown some pages ago sporting the quad M200 launchers.

An other gunship with unusual camo. Don't know what armament was actually hidden under the tarp.

And if somebody is interested and wants to see one of the "smokeships" in action just follow this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvFeyslhWRo&feature=player_profilepage#t=127s

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:56 PM

Great photos Spotter!

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:48 PM

There was a great website with much info on nearly all of the armament systems of that era including much of the experimental stuff but it's unfortunately not available anymore (hopefully just for the moment).

http://tri.army.mil/LC/cs/csa/aawpns.htm

Some more pics of the system and an earlier version.

Btw, were you a Cayuse driver loachman?

  • Member since
    August 2008
  • From: Brandon, MS
Posted by loachman on Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:26 PM

The system uses MA-2/A (two tube) rocket units put together into banks of usually up to 8 tubes per side.  MA-2/A's were developed for fixed wing use, but were replaced by the smaller breed of missles.  The helicopter system is generally credited as being put together by CWO Cleatus L. Heck, in-country while he was with UTT in 62-63.  He returned and served with subsequent units in 65-66.  It was sometimes called the Heck System.  I've heard, though it was before my time in country, that it was quite a "burn" for the crew chief or gunner. 

Goggle for MA-2/A armament system and check out www.flyarmy.org for Cleatus Heck.

Am pulling together supplies and material to build a 1/35 Bravo model using an Academy UH-1C, Cobra Bravo conversion and M-6 set, Eduard PE, Fireball decals, and a bunch of scratch building.  Got to get several things finished and out of the way before I crank.  As I get older, I think I need to cut back on the multi-tasking.

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Berlin, Germany
Posted by SpotterXY on Sunday, August 7, 2011 1:16 PM

skypirate1

Anyway im not to sure if this unusual but i dont think ive seen rockets mounted this high before.http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/skypirate2/untitled10-1.jpg

I think I can shed some light on this. This arrangement was only flown at Camp Holloway, Pleiku (unit?) from 1963-64 and can be considered experimental.

Some more photos of the system:

I've some more pics for this thread but have to sort the stuff before posting so stay tuned.

 

Best regards

Martin

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by skypirate1 on Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:20 PM

This thread so needs bumping, Its home to possibly the best collection of rare huey armament pictures from anywhere on the internet. A must see for anyone interested in building a huey from Vietnam.

While the rest of the crew may be in the same predicament, it's almost always the pilot's job to arrive at the crash site first.
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Sunday, February 1, 2009 1:34 PM

Marko,

  Good to see you back!  There is a thread around here somewhere with a pic of that bird with teh automatic 40mm in the door.  My father told me that his bird a UH-1B had a Mk 18 hand cranked 40mm mounted to the old Sagami mount in the door.  Unfortunately, he doesn't have any pics of her armed this way, but you can see the old Sagami mount in this pic where the post with the Mk18 was mounted.

     Ray

 

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  • Member since
    July 2007
Posted by KrazyCat on Friday, January 30, 2009 5:32 PM

Recently I came across a very intriguing piece of information that certainly deserves some further research:

 

Allegedly the last issue of the VHCMA newsletter for 2008 features a cover photo of a 128th AHC Huey gunship armed with a one-of-a-kind door-mounted M75 40mm automatic grenade launcher system! Now, I personally haven't seen this photo, but sure would love to, cause it sounds like a bird worth building in 1/35 :)

 

I was wondering, if there is anybody out there who has the aforementioned issue of the VHCMA newsletter and would be kind enough to send me a scan of this unusual Huey photo, please drop me an email.

 

Thanks,

 

Marko

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Monday, October 13, 2008 12:00 PM
 rotorwash wrote:

Grandad,

  Nice pic thanks for posting it.  You happen to know what's on the seal on the belly of that bird?

      Ray

 

It's the "old" National Guard seal

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Sunday, October 12, 2008 10:17 PM

Grandad,

  Nice pic thanks for posting it.  You happen to know what's on the seal on the belly of that bird?

      Ray

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: phoenix
Posted by grandadjohn on Sunday, October 12, 2008 8:23 PM

 

Being a Nationl Guard unit, it was sometimes necesary to transport VIP's, steps were attached to both side to make it easier for the to load and unload

  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: SE Alabama
Posted by Retired Gunpilot on Monday, September 8, 2008 10:26 PM

I agree that the fin does not looked cambered and is probably just extended. The reason was probably to assist in yaw control at high speed torque settings. This is the primary reason for the left side tail rotor being replaced with the right side tractor tailrotor on the snakes. The larger right sided tailrotor provided better control than the left sided tailrotor. I'm surpised they didn't just mount a civilian tailboom on it because the civilan 205 had the tractor right sided tailrotor.

Ray, Finally read this entire thread and it was very interesting. History, is interesting and the Army is one of the worst for accurate record keeping and still is today. I wish you all the luck in tracking the correct history.

 Charlie

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 11:29 PM

Great photos!  I'm a little confused about the designation of the single barreled 20mm as the Mark 12 Mod 3.  As far as I knew that was the XM31 system which consisted of a M24A1 20mm cannon mounted on a UH-1B.   Are these photos from your personal collection?

Here's some pics from teh Army Aviation Museum of the M24A1:

Photobucket

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[img]http://Photobucket

 

Also, never seen the XM61 three barreled 20mm cannon mounted fixed like that.  I have seen it mounted in the door though:

[img]http://Photobucket

 

Also, here's the abbreviated  XM-61  system mounted in the door of a  UH-1B:

[img]http://Photobucket

 

Really cool stuff you got there.  Keep em coming!

    Ray
 

 

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: The Boonies
Posted by Snake36Bravo on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 8:11 PM

M-61 20mm system and Mark 12. This was from a successful eval in 1964. Note the roof mounted feed chutes.

Si vis pacem, Para Bellum!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: The Boonies
Posted by Snake36Bravo on Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:27 AM

n/p

Si vis pacem, Para Bellum!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: The Boonies
Posted by Snake36Bravo on Friday, August 15, 2008 11:46 PM

n/p

Si vis pacem, Para Bellum!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: The Boonies
Posted by Snake36Bravo on Friday, August 15, 2008 11:37 PM

n/p

Si vis pacem, Para Bellum!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: The Boonies
Posted by Snake36Bravo on Friday, August 15, 2008 11:34 PM

n/p

Si vis pacem, Para Bellum!

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: The Boonies
Posted by Snake36Bravo on Saturday, June 7, 2008 1:13 AM

My contrib, UH-1E TAT-101. Shades of the B-17G here.

Si vis pacem, Para Bellum!

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:23 PM

Jon,

  i'm going to say the tail was straight and here's why.  The original YUH-1D used the tailboom from the UH-1B as well as it's rotor.  my guess is the extra chord was added to the existing B model tailfin which is not cambered.  Let's put it this way, if you build it uncambered, no one will fight you over it, I think!

     Ray

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 11:16 AM

I think I'm going to try my hand at building that bird.  Since I robbed the D model main rotor for the TOW Huey, I think I'm going to use the 540 rotor from the Monogram kit on one of my D models. 

Do we have any idea if that vertical fin is straight or cambered?

Jon

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 7:37 AM

Marko,

  Glad to see you are still around!  Yep, a 540 rotor on a YUH-1D is definitely unusual.   You picked up on the other mods as well. Also, notice that there are no pedals on the copilot side.  The reason that this YUH-1D was capable of using the 540 rotorhead was that the tailboom was shorter than the production UH-1D's.  The first YUH-1D's used the 204 rotorhead with the blade counterweights just like the UH-1B and a 44ft. rotor. Later each was retrofitted with the new 205 head  which incorporated the TT (tension/Torsion) straps into the blade grips thus doing away with the blade counterweights and the blade length wa sincreased to 48ft.. The tailbooms were also extended to accomodate the longer rotor blades.  Anyway, since the 540 blades were 6 inches wider (27 vs. 21 inches),I guess we know how they broke so many records with the YUH-1D now!  The book is Modern Combat Aircraft 19 UH-1Iraquois/AH-1 Hueycobra by Jerry Scutts (ISBN 0-7110-1416-7).  What I wanted to do next was for the person who answers the question to put up one of their own.  Ideally these would be visual since i think pictures are more interesting than verbal trivia. i suspect you won't have a problem with that after seeing some of your posts!  So you got anything for us?

   Ray
 

  • Member since
    July 2007
Posted by KrazyCat on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:24 AM
Ray,

Another unique feature of this YUH-1D is the model 540 "door hinge" main rotor system (used on UH-1C/M). Also note some unusual bracing in the windshield and chin bubble. Say, what's the title of this book, Ray.

Marko
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Monday, January 14, 2008 10:26 PM

Well it's time to revive this thread I think. i found this in a book I purchased recently:

[img]http://Photobucket[

The upper photo was posted by Jon (Cobrahistorian) a while back.  The lower pic is new.  Both pics are of the same aircraft.  Can anyone tell us what is UNIQUE about this bird?  We already know about the extra wide tail, so I'm looking for something else.  good luck!  if no one answers, i'll post the answer later this week.

    Ray
 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 11:19 PM

Ray,

Yep, the sighting system is scratchbuilt using my favorite technique: Lots of sheet styrene laminated and sanded to shape.  Not sure what paint scheme I'm gonna do yet.  I did cut the FM antennas off, but that doesn't preclude me putting better ones back on.  I'm probably going to do no FMs, Whispering Death on the nose and fine camo. I've got a nice shot of that bird. 

Jon

"1-6 is in hot"
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 7:38 PM

Jon,

  Man, I'm jealous!  I've barely got time to look at my stash every now and then right now!  Looking good so far.  Did you scratch build the sighting turret?  Dare I ask which ship your modeling?  Thanks for sharing.

      Ray

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Aaaaah.... Alpha Apaches... A beautiful thing!
Posted by Cobrahistorian on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 3:15 PM

Hey all,

Well, I've gone and done it.  I've got a little more spare time here in AZ than I originally thought, so I went and bought another Huey Hog kit.  Of course, I couldn't just build it straight out of the box... so I'm doing an NUH-1B.  I've got the TOW turret, ADF antenna, and engine armor panels installed now.  The rotor head is half built.  The TOW pods are coming along slowly, but I'm hoping to have em done by the time I leave Arizona.  Enjoy!

"1-6 is in hot"
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