Nighthawk & Firefly, Vietnam.

Andy,

  I see your going for the single light model and the D/H model Hueys. Any interest in B model fireflies?  Anyway, I guess this is probably the best place for these pics.  Steve Maxham, director of the Army Aviation Museum at Ft. Rucker was nice enough to pull out the original firefly light ( I have read that the individual lights were landing lights from C-130's or C-123's.  I have no idea which is correct) and he and my dad held it while I got a walk around series of pictures.  These shoudl be very helpful to anyone wanting to build an early Firefly:

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You can see the handle and wheel used to position the light.  there were four attachment points to the airframe. Since these are color, you can also see the OD frame color.  I hope these are helpful.  

     Ray
 

Here's the earliest Firefly I've seen pics of.  2/20th ARA, circa 1965.  That is an M48 tank searchlight. 

Leadfoot.

Thats great, its nice to know someone else is building a Nighthawk. You had the same idea as me for the 50 Cal and 60s im raiding a 1/35 M113 kit too  At the moment im working on the frame for the minigun mount and the search light with some sheet styrene.

As far as the unit markings go for an accurate model, alot of the nighthawks were thrown together using spare parts on a spare ship, which was often unmarked, so its proven to be a bit of a mission trying to track down both pictures and info with regards to details of the weapons carried, markings, tail numbers and nose art of specific ships! However.. ive managed to pull a few things together and thanks to our very own "Snake Charmer" Jon  im currently working through some more nighthawk IDs which i will post as soon as i can gather enough info to be of use.

Heres some Unit info to start with that might help..(check the unit sites for details of standard markings)

25th Aviation Battalion Nighthawks

The "little Bears" and "Diamond Heads" had a few Firefly ships in Vietnam, Although i cant post the pic, i can confirm that "Little Bear" (67-17153) was based at Cu Chi in 1968,  with Minigun, Light and Scope on left side.

Another "Little Bears" Firefly, with exactly the same layout as 153 but has no door markings.

Two 25th Avn Bn ships with the 50 Cal setup..

This one has the 25th AVN BN "Diamondhead" white door marking

114th AHC

#823, Fantastic shot of a "White Knight" Firefly, no guns but a very interesting Xenon light mounting bracket and a good shot of the unit markings. I dont have the files for the 114th so maybe someone could help out with the rest of 823's SN info?

Nothing much to go on here other than it was a "Bugship" from 114th AHC based at Vinh Long but well worth posting again as its one of the few hawks ive come across with Miniguns mounted on both sides and a 50 Cal for good measure! (Although you cant see the second minigun due to the angle of the picture, the guy that owns the photo and flew in the aircraft states that there were mini's on both sides). For anyone that doesnt already know, the strange looking box in the picture is a Flare dispenser!

That will do for now, More to come

If anyone has a specific unit Nighthawk that they want to build, let me know and i will dig out any info i have.

Ray,

Fantastic shots of the Cluster light!! thanks for posting (though i still dont think i will tackle scratch building one just yet).

As you already know my research is based on D & H models and you are my B & C model info guy, so as ever your expertise on the "half pint" hueys is most welcome and seeing as they started the whole firefly business it would be a sin not to have them mentioned in here, so feel free.

Andy 

Jon,

Great pic! cant get much earlier than 65! do you think that 2/20th m48 was in use before the C130 Cluster versions?

Andy

Andy,

  I had a feeling you would start a thread on Nighthawks and Fireflies one day.  I've been saving stuff uo for this one!  Let's start with stuff you can't find on the web.  Yep, that's right, some more gems from the Army Aviation Museum Archives: 

Let's start with a pic from the Nov. 67 issue of Army Aviation Digest of the C-130 cluster light:

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Next, how about a mini walkaround of the single light with the Starlight Scope:

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I'm sorry, but there's no info on the units associated with these images.  Here's another set of some closeups of the minigun mounted in the cabin:

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A rare rear view of the mini:

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and a front view up close:

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I think I'll end this installment with a very strange rig.  It appears to be a starlight scope suspended from a bungee and held in place with two tie down straps secured to hard points on the floor!  The 50 cal completes thsi unusual bird.  What do you guys think?  Any idea whose bird this is?

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Stay tuned, more cool birds inbound shortly!

     Ray
 

Ray,

Great pics, The single (round) light shots you posted are very unusual for the Nighthawk layout, im confused as they dont look like any of the M48 or M60 lights i have seen! Also its unusual to see the Minigun support frame with Springs attached ..so great stuff, Good ol Rucker archives .

As for Unit ID on the last pic, i dont know it offhand but maybe that patch on the starlight scope guys arm may be a clue!

Andy.

P.S If you have files for 114th? can you check them for an #823 ? thanks mate

Andy,

  I'll keep an eye out for 114th pics and info, but you probably know more than I do about that prticular ship.  Here's a few pics of a 120th Razorback UH-1H Nighthawk (ser. # 66-17114).  She spent almost here entire time in country with the 120th AHC.:

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Note that the minigun barrels all have flash supressors on them.  This was standard for HA(L)-3 door mounted minis, but uncommon on Army birds. Also interesting is that every last stitch of sound proofing has been removed. Even the ceiling is bare.

   Ray
 

Guys,

I am really glad to see ''Nighthawk/Firefly'' forum here; You already posted some fantastic stuff :)

I was able to ID that 114th AHC White Knight 823: she was a UH-1D 65-09823 and was in service with the 114th from 10/66 to 09/67. What is interesting about this bird is that it was fitted with a fully manufactured airborne illumination system-according to my references it was an early Nightsun system manufactured by Spectrolab. Here is another photo of this system in deployed position on A/123rd Anv Batt bird in 1968/69:

I also found a close-up of minigun on that strange 114th AHC flare ship; note how 114th used completely different minigun mounts than other units:

Ray, as for that unusual ''bungeed'' starlight scope; I believe this was one of the ACTIV (Army Concept Team In Vietnam) Hueys. ACTIV maintained a small flight detachment to test new systems in Vietnam and this is very likely one of their UH-1Ds; I think I have another photo of this bird (serial number too) somewhere, but You'll have to give me some time to dig it up :)

I wanted to build a 120th AHC Nighthawk for Years, but just couldn't find enough detailed images! Ray, Andy where did You find those 120th Nighthawk pics? The 120th was unique in that they would attach their UH-1H Nighthawks to their gun platoon, the Razorbacks. Here's another Razorback Nighthawk in a very cool OD/Black finish at Nha Be in 1971:

Standard light/starlight scope configuration on Nighthawks was AN/VSS-3 xenon searchlight (developed for M551 sheridan armored vehicle) and AN/TVS-4 starlight scope. And some info on Nighthawk minigun system that might be of help: it seems that initially most units used 2000 round ammo boxes (part of the XM27 minigun subsystem for OH-6A/OH-58A) to feed their minis, but later in the war a lot of units would replace these with 4000 round ammo boxes from M28 armament subsystem used on AH-1Gs. XM27 2000 round box can be seen in the 120th AHC images You posted; here are a couple of images of a UH-1H Nighthawk ''Cougar Revenge'' of the 57th AHC in 1972; I cannot ID this bird-note the 061 on the revetment wall-I checked 57th AHC site for this number, but no helicopter with serial number with these last three digits is listed!?! Note the anti-strella modifications and 4000 round ammo boxes for minis:

Marko

Ray,

I am pretty sure that the Huey with a starlight scope on a bungee and AN/M2 .50 cal MG is UH-1D 65-10130 assigned to the ACTIV flight detachment at Tan Son Nhut. This bird was used to test many systems including Firefly searchlight cluster, XM52 smoke generator subsystem, twin M60s and some rather unusual ''USAF-fixed-wing-gunship-style'' side-firing weapons such as 20mm automatic cannon and 106mm recoilless rifle!!!

Marko 

Marko,

Thanks for finding the info for #823 and the Nightsun system! Although i dont have the tail number info, i can confirm that the bird in the pic you posted from A/123rd AHB with the same Nightsun system, was originally a "Pelican" from the 161st AHC and taken in 1968 just after the 161st was reorganised into the 123rd AHB Americal Division.

Fantastic shots of that 57th AHC ''Cougar Revenge'' !! I've not seen that ship before so thanks for posting, definitely one worth looking into for more info.

Great info on the standard light/scope and minigun setup! But just to avoid confusion for anyone building an early model Firefly with single xenon, although the AN/VSS-3 xenon searchlight was used on the M551 Sheridan, it wasnt the first xenon light used on Firefly ships in Vietnam. The M551 wasnt produced until 1966 and due to technical problems didnt see action in Vietnam until January 1969! However the M60 tank was using 75 million candle power xenon lights as early as 1963! The 2.2kw AN/VSS-1 xenon searchlight, like the one shown in Jons very early 2/20th ARA Firefly ship from 1965, has without doubt been 'liberated' from either an M48 or M60. So lights from M48's,M60's and M551's are all fare game for your Firefly build.

Great stuff Marko! Do you have any pics of those ACTIV recoilless test birds?

Andy

marko and Andy,

  Great info and pics guys!  I am going to be a little scarce around here for a while. we got a new crop of Veterinary students coming in this week and I gotta get crackin' on my lecture notes.  I've been doing too much Huey research and not enough cat dissection I'm afraid!  Hopefully, i can post something every now and then.  As a teaser Andy, i have found evidence that the Arny orignally had plans to arm UH-1D's as gunships and it's straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.   I'll post something in the next week or so on that.

     Ray

Andy,

I am affraid I don't have any images of recoilless rifle armed 65-10130; I found the info on 65-10130 in Chenoweth's book ''Army Gunships in Vietnam''; but I am pretty sure Army Aviation Museum must have some images of this unusual experimental setup...

Some interesting historical info on armed UH-1Ds (a kind of an intro to Ray's Army UH-1D gunships):

I found some info regarding early combat evaluation of the M5 armament subsystem. Army evaluation board concluded that M5 was an effective anti-personnel weapon and suggested that FIVE systems be assigned to each AHC: two to the gunship platoon, one in reserve and two to lift platoons to be mounted on UH-1Ds for LZ fire suppression! I guess the idea was probably dropped because M5 armed UH-1Ds could carry two soldiers less. 

Marko 

leadfooterm535i wrote:

Did any Nighthawks carry Anti-strella? I finally made a toilet bowl that fits perfectly in 1/72 scale. Although, I would like to make a few more. Any ideas how I could copy it without having to carve another one out?

Please tell us how you made it. I've been trying to work out how to make one for an AH-1G cobra in 1/72. All my attempts so far have been just too big. Pics would be great as well.

Thanks, Rich

Leadfoot,

Check those photos Marko posted of the 57th AHC Nighthawk with the Anti-Strella. I think thats the only one i have seen, but il keep my eye open for others.

Andy

Here are some more unit Nighthawks...

229th AHB

(C/CO 229th Huey Decals Available from From Fireball Modelworks in most scales)

http://webpages.charter.net/osborn82/

UH-1H (67-19525) was a Nighthawk with C/229th from January 1969 until 13 September 1969, when it was apparently shot down during a "Sniffer" mission West of LZ Jamie. 

UH-1H (68-16082) The "Judge" was a Nighthawk/Dayhawk with C/229 based at Tay Ninh from September 1969 until June 1972. Not only was this bird used as a Nighthawk, she also adopted the role of a Gunship to help suppress fire for slick units on daytime combat assaults. More info on #082 "Judge" here..

http://www.229thavbn.com/Photos/index.html

Photo of the "Judge" by C/229 Doorgunner "Roy Bridges"..

"Judge" Minigun..

334th AHC

UH-1D (65-09945) 50 Cal armed slick from 334th "Gangbusters" 1967-68

335th AHC

UH-1H "Seasons Greetings" from the 335th "Cowboys" 1970 (note the black minigun mount)

336th AHC

UH-1H "Warrior 21" AKA "Super Slick" 336th AHC "Warriors" 1969-1970.This Nighthawk experimented with a few armament configurations in her day, she had the 50 Cal setup first then the minigun, light and scope and also tried out both the single and twin M60s on the other side. We just need someone to come up with the nose art decals for her (HINT HINT!)

(Ive used some of this birds pics already, so i will post here to keep things in unit order)

The mount for the twin M60s used on this bird are unlike any other twin 60 mounts i have seen! they even have their own spot lights!

The 50 Cal setup..

The minigun, Xenon search light and starlight scope..

It could be my eyes playing tricks, but that looks like some kind of blackout curtain between the pilot and crew section!!

Lastly, "Warrior 21" Preparing for a seal mission ..(gota love this Nighthawk)

Stay tuned.. More to come.

Andy

leadfooterm535i wrote:

I'm actually surpised it worked. I found a pieace of plastic at work and drilled it out and the started heating, bending and stretching it to to some measurements I figured out from some pictures. When I got home it almost fit so I messed with it some more and finally got right. I tried before cutting shapes on foil and rolling it but only got close and ugly. I want to figure how I can make molds for it and remake a few. I have a few aircraft in 1/72 that need it, especially that AH-1G "#1 Du Me Mi". If I can get making some, I'll be glad to help you. I'll be going to the art supply store this weekend to see about some modeling clay.

Thanks, I'll be watching this space closely.

Rich

leadfooterm535i

I sure would like to see the picture of the "sunken" floor on a D model Huey.  I can't see how that would be possible.  Maybe it's just a picture with some of the floor panels removed for maintenance. 

Andy,

Great images and research on the ''Super Slick''. Your eyes aren't playing tricks on You-that is a blackout curtain on the Super Slick. In fact all Hueys could be fitted with this curtain UH-1D/H/B/C/M. It was a two piece rig: a short black curtain with zipper at the bottom was attached to the roof between door posts and the backout curtain itself was then ''zipped'' to it. I guess 336th used this curtain to reduce the negative effect of the searchlight on pilots night vision.

And here are a couple of pics of another UH-1H Nighthawk with Anti-Strela modifications. D troop 17th Cavalry at Danang in late 1972; unfortunately I can only make out part of the serial number-it appears to be 68-1557X or 68-1551X:

Note the unusual minigun ammo box and black AirCav crossed sabres insignia aft of the cabin door: 

Nose art on one of D/17 Nighthawks (not the one in the pics above-if You look closely at the first D/17 Nighthawk image You will see that it sported different nose art) 

I posted these two images in the unusual vietnam hueys thread, but they certainly belong here; they were taken from 191st AHC 1969/70 yearbook and show a UH-1H Nighthawk in service with the 191st AHC at the time. This was certainly one of the most heavily armed Nighthawks I've seen, I just wish I could find some more detailed images of this monster of a Huey. It sported a XM213 .50 cal MG and mk19 mod 0 40mm automatic grenade launcher on the right side and probably minigun (You can clearly see the ammo chute in the picture) and searchlight/starlight scope on the left:

Marko 

Jon,

Thanks for ID on D/17 Nighthawk. Could You possibly check if 57th AHC flew an UH-1H with last three serial number digits ''061'' (should be in 1972/73 period). Thanks :)

Marko 

Great stuff Guys!

  Andy,

  Here's a couple of pics of the top portion of the blackout curtain you wereasking about. This is an NUH-1B.  You can see the top f the curtain through the windshield:

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H ere's another pic of the overhead panel where you can see the curtain in teh upper part of the photo:

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I know I have a better one in my photo set, but I'll have to post it later.  

    Ray