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Nighthawk & Firefly, Vietnam.

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  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Southport, North West UK
Posted by richgb on Friday, August 24, 2007 11:10 AM

Maybe you could sand it down slightly, although in  this scale its not that obvious unless your looking out for it. Now you've noticed it though, it'll be really prominant to your eyes and stand out a mile, but to everyone else, I doubt they'd pick up on it.

Rich

...this is it folks...over the top!
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Southport, North West UK
Posted by richgb on Friday, August 24, 2007 11:12 AM
...this is it folks...over the top!
  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Friday, August 24, 2007 2:15 PM

I'll see if tonight i can sit down and mark what I'd need to shave off and post it to you guys. Then you can let me know what you think. I was planning on doing one with ALL the doors off like most of the ones I've seen. I'll need to make the armor plates for the pilot seats for starters. Any ideas on what to use and the shape? did they slide forward like the ones on the UH-60? I need more info on what else I put in to detail the cockpit. I know I should put in fire extinguishers, but WHERE? I've seen a picture of one attached to the floor to the right of the pilot seat. an extinguisher should be easy to replicate. round stock and shaped aluminum foil. I have many sizes of copper wire than can be used for cables and stuff through out the cockpit.

I like that one in the picture you put up last (richgb) with the cabin walls stripped from sound proffing. that would just take sanding down the walls to get rid of the criss cross patterns and scribing a few lines in. is that bare metal or is it gray as well? and I would get to put on the toilet bowl I made. question is, markings, can I get them?

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Southport, North West UK
Posted by richgb on Friday, August 24, 2007 2:34 PM

OOOps. I tried to add some writing in but there was no room left. What I meant to point out was that this ship has all the soundproofing ripped out, even on the ceiling. What was the purpose of this, to save on weight maybe? or had it just fallen out?? It looks like just the bare essentials.

Just going back to the pic of the Cav ship above, were those moustaches standard issue for Cav pilots? Nearly every pic I've seen of a Cav pilot he has a tash!!

Rich

...this is it folks...over the top!
  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Friday, August 24, 2007 3:39 PM
another thing I noticed about 1/72 scale stuff. every M-60, either D, G or any, don't have the bipod legs on the end. the only exception is a kit of figures of USMC I bought last month, but the only one I can tell has them, has them extended out with the guy in the prone. What a spoiler for anyone who hasn't noticed it.Angry [:(!]

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Friday, August 24, 2007 4:38 PM

Kris,

  You don't need a bipod on your M60 for the doorgun.  Especially if you are using the M60D with the spade grips.  If you want an M60A with the standard pistol grips, get the Eduard 1/72 set (don't have the number handy right now) to get bipods, but you will have to get two since each set only has a single M60.  Basically, the bipod was either left on or removed depending on the time the amament guys had with the gun. My father always removed the bipods from his guns, but he said it wasn't uncommon at all to leave them on the barrels if the guns were needed in a hurry.

    Ray

  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Friday, August 24, 2007 8:32 PM

So what you're saying is, bipods were optional!?! Man, we used to get hounded by our XO because 1 or 2 of our M60Ds had a problem, usually a bent or messed up bipod.

How many weapons come in that Eduard set? is it recent or do I have to hunt it down?

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Friday, August 24, 2007 9:27 PM

Kris,

  i never served in the military, so I'm not the final word on this, but my experience from talking to Vietnam vets and reading about combat missions is that lot's of things become "optional" in a combat zone.  Dad said some barrels came with bipods and others didn't.  To show you what I mean,  here's a pic of dad with his M60:

 [img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[

Not only does his 60 not have a bipod, he's holding the crew cheif's cigarette!  I bet your XO would of fragged you for that!

 Here's another M60A on a Sagami mount and you can see that it has a bipod.   However, short of the bird going down and the gunner needing to fire on the ground it's not necessary.  Check the Vietnam Huey thread (Page 9) for an in depth discussion of M60's in Hueys.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

As for the Eduard set, it is EXV 72016 (West Block Modern Fire Arms).  The set comes with 1 M60A, 2 M-16's, 2 Uzi's, 2 German MG-3's 2 German G-3's, and 2 FN-FAL's.  I'm not sure who would need this assortment of weapons, but that's what is there.  The kit also includes bipods for the MG-3 and M60.  I bought 2 sets because I knew I would need two guns, but i can't rememeber where I got them or how much they cost.  Hopefully that will help, though.  By the way, you can get two M60A's in the 1/72 Italeri OH-13S kit as well as a pair of 30 cal Brownings.  There are also two M60D's in the 1/72 italeri Desert Hawk kit, but they are not entirely accurate since they have moulded forearms and M60D's lacked forearms.

   Ray
 

  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Friday, August 24, 2007 9:49 PM

Yes, everyone would be pissed. Specially since that was one of the first parts in the crew/ passenger briefs the pilots made us give. Never understood this, No smoking within 50 feet of the aircraft, but the aircraft is administratively Red X'ed if the ash trays were not installed in the pilot doors. Go figure!

I have a bunch of OH-13 kits but the weapons just didn't look right when I was laying out what I could use. As for the Eduard kit, I'll see if I can find one and then if anyone wants to share the rest that I don't need.

You got any ideas as far as my D cabin floor dilema? I guess since all the doors are going to be off it wouldn't matter if I shave down the openings.

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Friday, August 24, 2007 10:13 PM

Kris,

  The Oh-13 kit I have is Italeri No. 085. It definitely has M60A's with forearms, but there are also two small mounting pegs on the bottom of the gun that make it look strange.  take those two little pegs off and you got yourself a pretty gun doorgun for your Huey, but you'll have to add the carrying handle that the bungee cord is attached to.

   I haven't built a UH-1D yet, so i'm not qualified to comment on the fit problem with your floor.  Shaving down the edges sounds good to me, though.

    Ray
 

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by skypirate1 on Friday, August 24, 2007 10:53 PM

Rich

The breeze created by the open doors would play havoc with the blankets and any blanket that had faulty or worn snap fasters would flap about, make noise and could cause damage to the transmission island panels and structural bulkhead and would damage the blanket, the skin was only .008 inches thick!

The major reason behind missing or lost soundproof blankets was that although they were coded as "Unit-repairable" in the parts manual, neither the (TM 55-1520-210-20) or the general aircraft maintenance manual (TM-55-1500-204-25/1) informed the guys on how to go about repairing them. So if they came loose it was easier to just remove them.

(Boring bit for us detail lovers Wink [;)])..

Replacing a soundproof blanket (NSN -5640-00-269-1048) was costly, a large blanket was over $100. Buying in bulk, a square yard would cost $5.90.

Incase you have ever wondered, this is how the blankets were attached inside the huey.     The transmission and bulkhead was covered in screws known to the maintenance guys as "Studs". On the outside of the blanket was a snap fastener cap, which would be attached to a snap fastener socket on the inside of the blanket. The snap fastener socket on the inside of the blanket would then clip onto the "Studs" on the transmission and bulkhead to hold the blankets in place.

Weight was an issue, raised density altitude caused by the heat, was a big problem in Vietnam and not just for the fully laiden gunships that had to bounce down flightlines to get into the air. Many a slick was lost in an LZ desperatly trying to maintain a hover.

Which brings me back to the Nighthawks. The Nighthawk was the most heavily armed slick in any unit in Vietnam and although (due to its name) it was perceived by most,as nothing more than a nightime perimeter guard or a spotter for gunships (The Fireflys job) It had a far spicier role in Vietnam. Its size and armament didnt go unnoticed by special forces and due to the fact that it could carry a few troops and had a fare amount of fire power, The Nighthawk was used to insert Ranger/SOG/Seal units into places that a slick and gunship escort would bring to much attention. Dak To was a favorite forward base for SOG recon missions, They would use a single Nighthawk to drop them over the border into Laos to gather intel on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. The Nighthawk had the firepower to help out if things went pear shaped and would often be sent back to pick the guys up at the end of the mission.

With the armament and amount of ammo that needed to be carried on a Nighthawk and with the prospect of carrying a team of guys behind enemy lines without a wingman or escort, it makes sense that any Nighthawk CE would choose to reduce as much weight as possible. If the doors are open, they may aswell be off! With the doors off, who needs the added agro of flapping soundproof padding! Plus it may just save on a little weight!

(Phew)!! i hope that helps explain things a little.

Andy

 

      

While the rest of the crew may be in the same predicament, it's almost always the pilot's job to arrive at the crash site first.
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Friday, August 24, 2007 11:10 PM

Andy,

  Good stuff, but I think that in this case a picture is worth a thousand words at elast as far as how the blankets snapped in place:

[img]http://Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket[

This is the ever posted NUH-1B from Ft. Rucker.  I think it is pretty self explanatory!

   Ray
 

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by skypirate1 on Friday, August 24, 2007 11:19 PM

Ray,

See if you had just posted that picture earlier, i wouldnt of had to write those "thousand words" Mischief [:-,] Big Smile [:D]

Andy

P.S i thought that Blanket detail might come in handy for any members of the Velcro generation like me, living outside the US and without access to the Rucker Hueys Big Smile [:D] 

While the rest of the crew may be in the same predicament, it's almost always the pilot's job to arrive at the crash site first.
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Friday, August 24, 2007 11:29 PM

Andy,

  if I hadn't been up to my eyeballs in teaching, i woulda done it sooner!Pirate [oX)]

    Ray

PS:  you ready for my info on US plans for UH-1D gunships?
 

  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by skypirate1 on Friday, August 24, 2007 11:32 PM

Ray,

Erm...let me think.. you know me mate, i live for them, now stop teasing and post Big Smile [:D]

While the rest of the crew may be in the same predicament, it's almost always the pilot's job to arrive at the crash site first.
  • Member since
    February 2007
Posted by skypirate1 on Friday, August 24, 2007 11:55 PM

Rich,

 i cant remember how to quote, but in answer to your question.. 

"are moustaches standard issue for Cav pilots? Nearly every pic I've seen of a Cav pilot he has a tash!!"

Without doubt the Moustache was essential uniform for the Cav guys, the more "Errol Flynn" the better! Especially amoungst the 1/9th recon guys. Talking of good ol Errol Flynn, a little bit of Vietnam trivia...

Errol Flynn's son, Sean Flynn, was a photojournalist in Vietnam. On the 6th April 1970 while freelancing for Time Magazine, he disappeared with CBS reporter Dana Stone. They were covering the fighting in Cambodia and it is presumed that they were executed by their captors. Sean Flynn was 28 years old. No place in a modeling forum but interesting non the less!

Andy   

 

While the rest of the crew may be in the same predicament, it's almost always the pilot's job to arrive at the crash site first.
  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Saturday, August 25, 2007 6:32 AM

Here are the shots for my dilema with the cabin floor. the cabin i used for the pictures are from another ESCI model that didn't make it through a move from Miami to Tampa and back. I'll make the next one with customized parts.

red is where I already removed plastic. light blue is what i would need to shave off.

the yellow is where that "plate" was molded to go along the door opening.

this is just the 1/4 door cut off.

the following are shots from above. dont know if you can tell the difference between parts with these.

 

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:47 PM

UPDATE:

cabin floor problem- trying out .015" evergreen strips to raise the floor. to be followed by slight sanding down on the door openings, filling in floor gaps. Need to figure out the cockpit floor without showing the addition through the chin bubbles.

Pilot seats- remaking the seat frames with thinner rods and swapping the kit seats with UH-1C seats and scratch build sliding armor plates.

Any thoughts?

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Southport, North West UK
Posted by richgb on Sunday, August 26, 2007 3:16 AM

Kris,

I'm using the seats from a C as well, although not bothering to change the armour plating.Info on the seats can be found in one of the Huey threads pinned at the top of the page. Take a day off work and read through them. As for guns, obviously you get minis from the D, the H-34 has a great pistol grip M-60 with the butt removed, the Italeri/Revell uh-60 desert hawk has 2 great M-60D's with spade grips, hh-53 also has miniguns as well. Aeroclub from the UK has great .50 in 1/72. It's ahame Italeri doesn't produce a box of weapons in 1/72 as they supply some excellent ones in the kits, but you can always use more can't you.

 

Rich

...this is it folks...over the top!
  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Oklahoma
Posted by chopperfan on Sunday, August 26, 2007 7:33 AM

Kris?

Are you building this "D" in 1/72 or 1/48? If it is in 1/48, let me check. I have promised some weapons to another but, I may have enough to go around. Minis, M-60Ds and M2s. It may take a couple of days as I am inventorying kits for the other member for a possible sale/trade.

Have patience. 

Randie [C):-)]Agape Models Without them? The men on the ground would have to work a lot harder. You can help. Please keep 'em flying! http://www.airtanker.com/
  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Sunday, August 26, 2007 10:46 AM
 richgb wrote:

Kris,

I'm using the seats from a C as well, although not bothering to change the armour plating.Info on the seats can be found in one of the Huey threads pinned at the top of the page. Take a day off work and read through them. As for guns, obviously you get minis from the D, the H-34 has a great pistol grip M-60 with the butt removed, the Italeri/Revell uh-60 desert hawk has 2 great M-60D's with spade grips, hh-53 also has miniguns as well. Aeroclub from the UK has great .50 in 1/72. It's ahame Italeri doesn't produce a box of weapons in 1/72 as they supply some excellent ones in the kits, but you can always use more can't you.

 

Rich

I'm not changing the armor on the seats. I'm leaving the seats with their armor, but adding the sliding plates that are attached to the soundproofing panels behind the seats. I figure, if I get enough cluter in the cabin, I can hide the inaccuracies. I got some weapons set aside, but I'll wait until I get the aircraft issues sorted out. I got enough Evergreen round stock and strips to make mounts for the lights and weapons.

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Sunday, August 26, 2007 10:48 AM
 chopperfan wrote:

Kris?

Are you building this "D" in 1/72 or 1/48? If it is in 1/48, let me check. I have promised some weapons to another but, I may have enough to go around. Minis, M-60Ds and M2s. It may take a couple of days as I am inventorying kits for the other member for a possible sale/trade.

Have patience. 

I only do 1/72 scale. Thanks anyway!Burger [BG]

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

  • Member since
    January 2006
  • From: Baton Rouge, Snake Central
Posted by PatlaborUnit1 on Saturday, September 1, 2007 7:31 AM

good luck with that toilet bowl~ I have the Fireball models bowl and have often wondered how he did it AND cast it.

David

 

Build to please yourself, and don't worry about what others think! TI 4019 Jolly Roger Squadron, 501st Legion
  • Member since
    July 2007
Posted by KrazyCat on Thursday, September 6, 2007 7:34 AM

Hi Guys!

 

Here are some pics of a UH-1H Flare ship ''The Devil's Advocate'' in service with 2nd platoon ''The Death Dealers'', 235th AWC Delta Devils in around 1970 (sorry, no tail number). She was armed with a XM213 .50 cal MG on the right side and a M60D on the left.

 

Note special external flare containers that could be swung out to dump flares in an emergency. Also, part of the death dealers insignia can be seen on the pilot's door. 

 

 

Here's a close-up of the Nose art

 

Though this is a photo of another 2nd platoon UH-1H it shows the Death Dealers insignia on the door

 

Marko 

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Thursday, September 6, 2007 7:41 AM

Marko,

  Nice pics!  Thanks for sharing.

      Ray

  • Member since
    July 2007
  • From: Miami, FL
Posted by leadfooterm535i on Thursday, September 6, 2007 10:48 AM

I need to get back into gear for this. Last I did was prep the cabin floor with styrene strips and contour putty. I just got a hand drill in the mail, so next will be rebuilding the pilot seat frames to fit a C model seat, extra armor panels and accomodate seat belts and figure how to blend in the cockpit floor.

OH! just remembered something. In a Blackhawk, the left collective is retractable for ease in accessing and egressing the cockpit, was the Huey's fixed or was it retractable too?

U/HH-60 CE "Embrace The Suck, Phantoms!!!" "I work for Pedro!" Kris

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Wednesday, September 19, 2007 1:06 AM
 skypirate1 wrote:

Marko,

Thanks for finding the info for #823 and the Nightsun system! Although i dont have the tail number info, i can confirm that the bird in the pic you posted from A/123rd AHB with the same Nightsun system, was originally a "Pelican" from the 161st AHC and taken in 1968 just after the 161st was reorganised into the 123rd AHB Americal Division.

Fantastic shots of that 57th AHC ''Cougar Revenge'' !! I've not seen that ship before so thanks for postingThumbs Up [tup], definitely one worth looking into for more info.

Great info on the standard light/scope and minigun setup! But just to avoid confusion for anyone building an early model Firefly with single xenon, although the AN/VSS-3 xenon searchlight was used on the M551 Sheridan, it wasnt the first xenon light used on Firefly ships in Vietnam. The M551 wasnt produced until 1966 and due to technical problems didnt see action in Vietnam until January 1969! However the M60 tank was using 75 million candle power xenon lights as early as 1963! The 2.2kw AN/VSS-1 xenon searchlight, like the one shown in Jons very early 2/20th ARA Firefly ship from 1965, has without doubt been 'liberated' from either an M48 or M60. So lights from M48's,M60's and M551's are all fare game for your Firefly build.

Great stuff Marko! Do you have any pics of those ACTIV recoilless test birds?

Andy

The 1st of the 1st CAV was using M551's in the fall of 1968 for sure, and it seems like the 17th CAV had them in the summer of 68. Also the 1st of the 4th Cav down south had them in the late summer of 1968. I remember seeing a couple of them in the scrap pile in Chu Lai during a trip to Ordinance.

    I was kinda surprised that they didn't use a starlight scope on the gunships. They made a huge one that was at least a foot in diameter if not bigger. Also did you notice how they built the pental for the fifty? It came off the skids instead of the airframe. A fifty puts out a lot of recoil on the gun mount. Those birds may have been attached to the 101st up north.

gary

  • Member since
    December 2007
Posted by let_models on Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:24 AM

Hello,

Recently I pulled my old built UH-1D to modify the "anti Strella" exhaust and the sides cover engine from scratch... also I want to add the mini guns on the ship too! But I can'tfigure out how the configuration of the ammo. belt feed to the gun? I mean where it starts from the ammo. box? especially on the Left side location? Have any idea???

Notes:The mini guns look

 different than other pictures, which your guys already posted in here,I believed it was a late model...any help with the information are very appreciated it!

Here is the picture I'm talking about:

And the pictures of my model so far:

YOur information is very appreciated!

let_modelsSmile [:)]

  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Auburn, Alabama
Posted by rotorwash on Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:29 PM

Welcome to the forums!  it looks like you are building a VNAF bird.  Here are some pics that I posted earlier in another thread of a VNAF bird from teh 238th AWC. As you can see the Ammo box is against the rear bulkhead.  There is one box for each minigun.  The system is either the XM93 or XM93E1.  the XM93 had a 10,500 round capacity and the XM93E1 had a 12,000 round capacity.

Photobucket

[img]Photobucket" border="0" />

Here is a photo of the system from the TACOM website: 

Photobucket" border="0" />

I hope that helps.

    Ray
 

  • Member since
    December 2007
Posted by let_models on Thursday, December 20, 2007 7:25 PM

rotorwash thanks for your info.

question about the other tread of VNAF bird you mentioned, you have the link?

let_models Smile [:)]

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