Wirbelwind-One, Spitfire-Zero...

 

  Here's an idea Hans. How about having the pilot sitting on the wing talking to the Wirbelwind commander and the gunner while the soldiers from the truck are milling about the crash site. Have the Wwind gunner offering the pilot a cigarette. While back on the Wwind one of the other crew members is adding a new hash mark next to an aircraft silhouette.  

Ah the wirbelwind, My favorite flak panzer, next to the gepard.

I had a simmilar idea like that, except instead of a spitfire it was a jeep that was shot.

Nice dio so far, but May i suggest adding more damage to the spitfire, too show that it made a hard landing.

What scale is this?

I'm inclined to go along with panzerguy's suggestion. It adds a more human element to the story. You could also modify the pilot as having been slightly wounded in the crash, and is receiving some attention from an infantry medic, while still incorporating the offered cigarette and chat with the Wirbelwind crew.

I agree with that suggestion it'd be very interesting.

quick, dumb question.  What scale?  Did you use a 1/32nd wirbelwind, a 1/35 plane O.o ?! or are you just guestimating the size?

Nice idea. Here's my two bits.

If the quad had greased that a/c it was probably more or less a head on approach shot, and it'd take only one hit to bring her down with those 20's. Or it could have hosed her from the side, sure, but she'd be in little pieces. A spit is not a flying tank. A cannon hit on that flimsy little a/c usually was a big punch in the face, at least a hole you could pass a grapefruit through. Could have cleaved the engine in halves...hmmm?

Second, here comes this Spit at 3oo knots doing what ever it's doing and it meets up with one of Rhein Metalls finest. It's either nose in and disintegrate, or mortally wounded, fly on another little ways before crashing in a way that the pilot survived, Which means that in your scenario the AA guys would probably have turned around, if they really wanted those Merlin valve covers as souvenirs, and trekked back to the column of smoke. Which suggests they be pointed in the same direction as the a/c.

I did a little research a while ago on modeling crashed a/c's and one thing I learned is that most (non armor) a/c skin from the era is around 0.040 or so, which at 1/48 is heavy barbeque foil, easy to find in Texas, right? no we don't barbeque in California, we grill! How cute.

Anyways, it works pretty well to take a piece of the stuff and rub it down over the plastic wing or whatever and then distress it any old which way and toss it on the ground.

Happy hunting!

 

 

I was under the impression that the Flakvierling shot... you know, flak, shells that explode into clouds of shrapnel and such, not actuiall rounds that were meant to hit planes directly.

The Flak38 used the same 20mm ammunition that is used by the ME-109G/K and the FW-190. It used both HE incindeary and AP incindeary rounds. Yikes you could start a forest fire with that thing!

The dio is largely 1/35th, with the exception of the Spitfire being 1/32, a necessary evil... The figures, well... I'll try to keep 'em a ways away from the Spit so the scale difference isn't so apparent..

As far as damaging the Spitfire more, I'll be adding some more wing-damage as the dio progresses in the groundwork phase, since I don't know exactly what it'll have hit during it's slide yet... The damage from the Wirbelwind was necessarily understated as the airplane had to be capable of flying long enough to land, and not bursting into flames... Basically, the 20mms knocked the engine out stone-cold, probably by hitting the crank...

I like the idea put up by Jadgwolf of having the wounded pilot being attended to. As far as the Wirbelwind goes, it surprises me that you didn't use an old Monogram 1/32 scale unit, thus satisfying your love for the older stuff as well as keeping the aeroplane and it's hunter "in scale". I notice the fire extinguisher is on the left side of yours while on the Monogram that I am finishing up on, it is on the right.

I've got the Monogram one but the reason it's not beig used is that the figures I'm using are 1/35th..

PaintsWithBrush wrote:

I like the idea put up by Jadgwolf of having the wounded pilot being attended to. As far as the Wirbelwind goes, it surprises me that you didn't use an old Monogram 1/32 scale unit, thus satisfying your love for the older stuff as well as keeping the aeroplane and it's hunter "in scale". I notice the fire extinguisher is on the left side of yours while on the Monogram that I am finishing up on, it is on the right.

 There really isn't much difference between 1/32 and 1/35 it is almost the same as 1/700 vs 1/720 scale they scale pretty much the same. It's the manufactures choice what scale it says on the box.

In response to Mikeym_us, I respectfully offer the following observation. I have on my shelf two Sherman tanks. One is Tamiya's 1/35 (the one with the 3 cold weather figures), the other is the old Monogram 1/32 Armor Series "Screamin' Mimi". Side by side, the Monogram offering is noticeably larger that the Tamiya. Perhaps this is a result of the two manufacturers differing formulas for calculating the relative scale.
I will defer to Hans von Hammers knowledge on the accuracy of the Monogram offerings as he seems to be an aficionado of their earlier units. That, and the fact that it is he who is building the diorama and has all the kits and figures in his possession.
There is also the added point that there are two types of equipment involved, aeroplane and armor, so the scale difference probably is of no concern, thus rendering my "in scale" reference moot.
Again, I offer these comments respectfully, merely as an observation and make no claim of KNOWING there is a universal scale formula rigidly adhered to by all manufacturers.
If the manufacturers would just adopt a universal number, either 1/32 or 1/35, and stick to it, we would never face such conundrums.
Regards, PWB.

PaintsWithBrush wrote:

In response to Mikeym_us, I respectfully offer the following observation. I have on my shelf two Sherman tanks. One is Tamiya's 1/35 (the one with the 3 cold weather figures), the other is the old Monogram 1/32 Armor Series "Screamin' Mimi". Side by side, the Monogram offering is noticeably larger that the Tamiya. Perhaps this is a result of the two manufacturers differing formulas for calculating the relative scale. I will defer to Hans von Hammers knowledge on the accuracy of the Monogram offerings as he seems to be an aficionado of their earlier units. That, and the fact that it is he who is building the diorama and has all the kits and figures in his possession. There is also the added point that there are two types of equipment involved, aeroplane and armor, so the scale difference probably is of no concern, thus rendering my "in scale" reference moot. Again, I offer these comments respectfully, merely as an observation and make no claim of KNOWING there is a universal scale formula rigidly adhered to by all manufacturers. If the manufacturers would just adopt a universal number, either 1/32 or 1/35, and stick to it, we would never face such conundrums. Regards, PWB.

Actually Tamiya has been often said to have made their models undersize for some reason. But the Screaming Mimi M4A3 Calliope tank would be larger anyways due to the rocket launcher on top. But if it is several times larger than the 1/35 Tamiya M4 then I don't know what scale it should be? But Monogram was the only company to do armor in 1/32 scale that I know of but Revell and RoG do 1/35 scale Tamiya and Academy also do 1/35 scale as does Dragon and Trumpeter.

A number of observations:

Bondoman, I was once offered BBQ oysters in California, not far from Jenner. Hmmm, should I have accepted?

HvH, I too like the idea of the pilot being there, accepting aid and a cig while being covered and watching his mount being hacked for souvenirs. 

As far as the scale difference, the Spit and vehicles aren't going to stand out, but the figs may look smallish around the Spit, assuming 1/35 figs are used.  54mm figs look big posed with 1/35 armor. I once used Airfix 1/32 US figs and a 1/35 DML German captive to give a "dramatic effect". It kind of worked.....  I also have the Monogram 1/32 Sherman, and next to a 1/35 Sherman, it looks big. In fact, it's probably between 5 and 10% larger, as compared to several manufacturers' 1/35 Shermans. I'm guessing the Monogram unit might be a little large.....

 

Mikeym_us wrote:

PaintsWithBrush wrote: I like the idea put up by Jadgwolf of having the wounded pilot being attended to. As far as the Wirbelwind goes, it surprises me that you didn't use an old Monogram 1/32 scale unit, thus satisfying your love for the older stuff as well as keeping the aeroplane and it's hunter "in scale". I notice the fire extinguisher is on the left side of yours while on the Monogram that I am finishing up on, it is on the right.  There really isn't much difference between 1/32 and 1/35 it is almost the same as 1/700 vs 1/720 scale they scale pretty much the same. It's the manufactures choice what scale it says on the box.

Actually the armor scale difference is 10%, while the ship scale difference is 2.8% so it's kind of a lot, but yes the figs would be the givaway. Seems to me the old Tamiya M4 Easy 8 was more like 1/32 if you compared it to their later Panzers.

If you could get a 1/35 pilot, you'd be in clover, son. Bust the plane up enough and scale won't matter. But for God sakes, don't light that cigarette up within 50 feet of that pool of avgas! That'd be a dio, now!

 

RBaer,
Perhaps Monogram, being an American company, was operating under the "Bigger is Better" doctrine.
The only evidence I can offer along that line is the fact that the Commander and Crewman figures included with 1/32 "Screamin' Mimi" are both larger than the Commander and Crewman figures offered in their 1/32 "FlakPanzer" (Wirbelwind) kit.
Maybe Monogram wished to convey an aura of "American Superiority" to the upcoming generation of American boys who were building these kits. Psychological marketing?
Mikeym_us,
The Monogram is not several times larger, but the difference in the hull size is noticeable, especially when viewed from overhead. Along the line of RBaer's observation: 5-10%. You make an interesting point regarding the possibility of Tamiya under sizing.
I'm sure it's common across industries to rig things so their parts only work within their products.
Bondoman,
Smart observation about the cig! Perhaps a bar of fine German chocolate instead?

Or have the gunner offer the Brit a shot of Schnaps then. (Far less potent than a cigarette, unless the Spitfire driver never tasted alcohol before...)

So far, the conensus is to have the pilot on-scene and wounded slightly right?  I'm thinking a leg-wound, shrapnel from the 20mm round that detonated near the cockpit (more likely the shrapnel is part of his seat) and that precluded his escaping the crash-site... Maybe having the pilot being offered a bit of schnapps is better than the cigarette, also, I'll have an opportunity to model a German Sanitäts Soldat that way...

I like the idea of the Gunner marking up his latest kill as well... Dunno if the silouette idea will work though... I think even the 20mm flak units painted kill rings on the gun barrels.. Dunno for sure though...

Having thought it over some more, I'm pretty sure I'll do an RAF pilot rather than a Soviet, since I doubt that Ivan would be well-treated by the German troops, especially Waffen-SS... I could make the Infanterie troops Heer though, but I kinda wanted a mix of SS and Heer... OR.. Just to add some spice... Anyone know if the Luftwaffe Field Divisions had any Wirbelwinds?

Hans von Hammer wrote:

So far, the conensus is to have the pilot on-scene and wounded slightly right?  I'm thinking a leg-wound, shrapnel from the 20mm round that detonated near the cockpit (more likely the shrapnel is part of his seat) and that precluded his escaping the crash-site... Maybe having the pilot being offered a bit of schnapps is better than the cigarette, also, I'll have an opportunity to model a German Sanitäts Soldat that way... I like the idea of the Gunner marking up his latest kill as well... Dunno if the silouette idea will work though... I think even the 20mm flak units painted kill rings on the gun barrels.. Dunno for sure though... Having thought it over some more, I'm pretty sure I'll do an RAF pilot rather than a Soviet, since I doubt that Ivan would be well-treated by the German troops, especially Waffen-SS... I could make the Infanterie troops Heer though, but I kinda wanted a mix of SS and Heer... OR.. Just to add some spice... Anyone know if the Luftwaffe Field Divisions had any Wirbelwinds?

Hans the 20mm Flak 38 is a high rate of fire weapon which means that the barrel has a tendency to turn red to white hot in a short matter of time which would cause any paint on the barrel to come off. So the crews would paint kill marks on the gun shield. The 3.7cm Flak 37 and 8.8cm Flak 36/37 guns have a slower rate of fire and thicker barrels which for some reason don't heat up as much and the paint stays on them longer.

Hans, it is July 1942 with an RAF Spit V with a B or C wing doing a Rhubarb mission across the Channel into France when the pilot missed sighting the Wirbel, and took several into the radiators at a very low level and couldn't jump and rode it down into a ripening wheat field and slid onto a field stone fence with the wing resting on it.  On Steve Reno's Flickr site, there is a photo of what has been suggested, only this is of a wounded young Luftwaffe Bf-109 pilot being held by US troops during Operation Bodenplatte.

...the 20mm Flak 38 is a high rate of fire weapon which means that the barrel has a tendency to turn red to white hot in a short matter of time which would cause any paint on the barrel to come off...

That's what I was thinking as well, but I didn't want to make it an absolute... I DO recall seeing those rings on a smaller AA gun though, but it very well could have been the 37mm... 

...the crews would paint kill marks on the gun shield....

Do you know if the marks were standardized, along the lines of the tabs w/national insignia like the Luftwaffe fighter pilots did on their tails or was it silhouettes of the aircraft ?  I haven't seen any pics to solve this mystery...

Hans, it is July 1942 with an RAF Spit V with a B or C wing doing a Rhubarb mission across the Channel into France when the pilot missed sighting the Wirbel, and took several into the radiators at a very low level and couldn't jump and rode it down into a ripening wheat field and slid onto a field stone fence with the wing resting on it.

 One small problem there.. The Wirbelwind didn't get fielded until 1944...  That's also why I was torn between the Soviet Spit and Brit-Spit...  I figured that Ivan would still have some Mark Vs that late in the game, but the RAF gig is more to my liking simply becasue there wasn't much to look at with Red Air Force paint schemes...   Rather than the stone fence, I'm doing a railroad right-of-way and tracks, probably going to have the raised roadbed holding up a wing (badly damaged at that) and probably a torn fuselage as well,...   I got a couple hangar queens that I'll test my "damage model" on, one way is to heat the fuselage aft of the cockpit until it's soft, then pull it apart and add the internal stuff.. Then I'll post some pics and y'all can tell me what ya think..

So, at this stage, It'll have to be a Soviet Spit, probably forced down by the Wirbelwind's scoring a couple major hits on it (the kill-shot being the engine block getting smashed by an AP round) in Eastern Germany in '44, along with some small-arms damage from the nearby Infantry... Anyone have any objections?  The Eastern Front is not my strong suit when it comes to on-hand research and I'm pretty ignorant of the Soviet/German operations and battles until after Ivan met up with the Yanks at the Elbe... 

 

 

 

I am looking forward to seeing this, Hans, but for some reason a wheels up landing screams eyebrow-split-by gunsight/dash top to me.  Not serious, but clearly visible.

 

Just my $.02.

Bill 

   

Yeah, a pretty common affliction, eating a gunsight...

Changed the base size to a more compact area @ 11" by 28" using two plastic photoframes, my prefered dio base material.. 

The RR tracks will be running in the same direction as the Spitfire and in the second one, they will run under the right wing, which will likely be missing a substantial portion... I like the second one best (the front edge of the dio is at the bottom of the pic) as it shows the damage to the Spit to its best advantage...  One of the loaders will be chalking up the kill on the left front of the turret, pilot, medic, and track commander near the left wing root, and assorted infantry standing around for security, with the gun's radio operator and other loader doing a little souvenier hunting in the 'pit and engine... 

I think the gunner should remain in the seat manning the guns, since there's a high probability that there's at least one more Spitfire out there who's pilot may be wanting a little payback, and Ivan's fighter pilots weren't exactly passive about killing Germans even if they didn't have the odds in their favor.  Catching a Wirbelwind and a truckload of infantry with their pants down would be something that a "Crazy Ivan" would risk his aircraft and life for, IMHO... Something about Ivan's "Bezerker" past comes to mind... 

Here's a couple close-ups of the Spit's damage from the 20mm hits.. Too litle? Too Much? Too small? What say y'all?

 

 

 

Hans von Hammer,
Along the line of a previous commenters description of the devastating nature of the 20mm round, perhaps only a hit to the engine area would give a more realistic chance of the aeroplane surviving to land.
As far as the pilot interaction with the ground forces, now that you have decided to go with the Soviet theme, it would seem to be a safe bet there would be no "kind" interaction. Perhaps your first idea that the pilot escaped and the Germans are going to look for him would be best. Wouldn't the Germans (especially SS) be beating him senseless if he were still on the scene?

Kinda torn about the damge from the Flakpanzer, since I'm pretty sure the ammo's a mix of AP-T, HE, and AP-I...  If anyone knows the specific ammo mix for the weapon, by all means, sound off.. I'm going to tone down some of the other hits to small-arms from nearby infantry, a couple lucky hits from some Mausers... In my mind, the Spit was surprised by the Flakpanzer's presence as it flew low & fairly fast (about 180-200 mph) over a small clearing and caught the gunners by surprise as well (they' heard it, but it was too low to spot or tell what direction it was coming from exactly), although they reacted faster than the Spitfire pilot and scored a couple hits, perhaps taking the damage just as he (the pilot) lowered a wing to look down into the clearing from a maybe a hundred feet AGL...

I figure that an AP-T or AP strike in the engine siezed it, and a couple more hits from AP-I and HE in the fuselage caused sufficient damage to break the fuselage on impact... I haven't begun to tear the plane apart yet, remember... The fuselage will be broken aft of the cockpit, as well as the right wing outboard of the flap, probably from a stump, tree, or the railroad roadbed... There's no main spar damage from the Wirbelwind since I'm pretty sure the Spit wouldn't have survived a hit to it long enough to crashland...

As for the pilot interacting, even though there's an SS presence, I'm thinking that if the pilot's an officer even those clowns would lighten up on him, at least until any worthwhile intel could be garnered from him... Provided he didn't strafe the guys that captured him...  I'm wondering... If the Wirblewind is Luftwaffe-crewed, it's be a lot better for the Russian...  I gotta look into that..

smeagol the vile wrote:

I was under the impression that the Flakvierling shot... you know, flak, shells that explode into clouds of shrapnel and such, not actuiall rounds that were meant to hit planes directly.

Flak means antiaircraft in german unless i'm mistaken meaning flak could be a rifle an MG or evan a SAM battery (i know no SAMs in WWII).

"Flak" is the German abbrieviation for "Anti-Aircraft Gun"... Fliegerabwehrkanone...

Rifle, Machinegun, and surface-to-air missile is, "Gewehr,Maschinengewehr, and
Boden-Luftrakete" respectively..