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Wirbelwind-One, Spitfire-Zero...

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  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: Charlottesville Va
Posted by Stern0 on Sunday, May 10, 2009 11:29 AM

Love the damage Col. can't wait for more on this one...I have a hard time simulating cannon and machine gun damage...flak damage (US Flak) is a little more random so easier for me..yours is awsome...here is how crappy mine can be..any tips would be appreciated

Always Faithful U.S.M.C
  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Sunday, May 10, 2009 1:34 PM

Nuttin' wrong with that one that I can see... Steam might be a bit over the top (that seawater'll cool a hot engine pretty fast, probably well before the pilot can egress...), and it may be a skosh high in the water (the Corsair didn't have floatation compartments like the Grumman birds) but it looks good, very dramatic... As for a dio in general, it's got that pet peeve of mine, though... OVERHANG!

 When it comes to damage,  don't do so much as to preclude a safe (or rather, survivable) landing/ditching... You pulled it off nicely here, IMHO....

As for accuracy, I don't know about the raft... Looks too big for the one-man dingy carried by fighter pilots with their 'chutes and the pilot probably would have left the 'chute & harness in the cockpit...  But hey, it gets the story across really well.. My personal thing on a ditched fighter would be to let it get to the water and trigger the water-activated dye pack, but don't worry about that... I really like your piece..

As for this dio, I'm stuck on it.. Going nowhere right now...  It's vying for space against a B-17 and a B-29 diorama and I think I'm going to mount a door horizontally along the wall for them, but if I do THAT, I lose about 24 sq. ft. of War Room space as well...  On th' OTHER hand, it''l add ebough space for the 3, PLUS another two WIPs I have featuring a pair of B-25s in the MTO...

*Sigh*.... I was NOT cut out for the tortured life I lead.. 

 

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Boston MA
Posted by vespa boy on Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:32 PM

Just my 2 cents. How about a Me109 shot down by the Wirbelwind and the pilot and tank commander trying to explain why it happened:

Pilot: "idiot"

tank commander: "The sun was in my eyes"

like when two poeple are talking after a car accident. You get the idea.

http://public.fotki.com/nkhandekar

This ain't no Mudd Club, or C.B.G.B.,
I ain't got time for that now

  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: Charlottesville Va
Posted by Stern0 on Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:34 PM
Thanks a million Col. I will say this peice is about 8 years old now....my first REAL dio....The only reason I have kept it. The overhang is a little annoying to me now....believe it or not it is the whole plane stuck in clay...and the raft is clay also. I've learned alot from you guys since..thanks again for the critique! I'm sure you will get unstuck and dazzle us...good luck sirBig Smile [:D]
Always Faithful U.S.M.C
  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Sunday, May 10, 2009 5:10 PM
 vespa boy wrote:

Just my 2 cents. How about a Me109 shot down by the Wirbelwind and the pilot and tank commander trying to explain why it happened:

Pilot: "idiot"

tank commander: "The sun was in my eyes"

like when two poeple are talking after a car accident. You get the idea.

LMAO!

That ain't a bad idea...  Gonna file that one for future ref.. Maybe a Mustang and an M-16 half-track...

"We thought you wuz a Messerschmitt, sir..."

There's a Mauldin cartoon I got to scan that has a little "US Army Air Corps vs US Army Infantry" theme to it...  I'll post it later on...

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posted by model maniac 96 on Sunday, May 10, 2009 5:33 PM
That really is a wonderful idea, lookin forward to that cartoon!
Ha ha!


Jim
"Veni, Vidi, Vici" Julius Caesar: I came, I saw, I conquered.
  • Member since
    September 2005
  • From: North Pole, Alaska
Posted by richs26 on Sunday, May 10, 2009 7:19 PM
Could be just like the color shot of the USAAF Spitfire VB/C shot down by US Navy gunners in Italy.  The Spit generally had those nice elliptical wings to which made id'ing pretty easy.  

WIP:  Monogram 1/72 B-26 (Snaptite) as 73rd BS B-26, 40-1408, torpedo bomber attempt on Ryujo

Monogram 1/72 B-26 (Snaptite) as 22nd BG B-26, 7-Mile Drome, New Guinea

Minicraft 1/72 B-24D as LB-30, AL-613, "Tough Boy", 28th Composite Group

  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: Kristiansund, Norway
Posted by Huxy on Monday, May 11, 2009 12:04 AM
 Hans von Hammer wrote:

LMAO!

That ain't a bad idea...  Gonna file that one for future ref.. Maybe a Mustang and an M-16 half-track...

"We thought you wuz a Messerschmitt, sir..."

There's a Mauldin cartoon I got to scan that has a little "US Army Air Corps vs US Army Infantry" theme to it...  I'll post it later on...

 

Ah... Got to do that myself... Smile [:)]

I think your plane looks very good! Not too many holes, not to few, not too big, not too small...

 

And looking forward for the Mauldin cartoon! Big Smile [:D]

"Every War Starts And Ends With An Invasion".

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 5:01 PM

Hans

I think your damage looks pretty good.  Not every plane hit by 20-mm got completely ripped apart.  Like you said, if it was a snap-shot and they only winged him with a burst...

As to the concerns about treatment of the Soviet pilot - I think it is Manny who posted a pic in one of his dio threads (probably the one he is working on now?) showing some Russian wounded getting treated by German medics.  Your dio is along those same lines, so I think it works.

At the same time, the 'German-on-German' crime sounds like a hilarious idea to me!

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 10:20 PM
Can't find that damned cartoon anywhere around th' War Room.. But it was a good one.. A column of Infantry have been flattened by a low-flying P-40.. BUT, you can see an M-1 with bayonet sticking out of the plane's fuselage... Meanwhile, the Sarge is saying to the dogface that's standing with no weapon, "Nice job. I thought I heard a muffled scream..."

  • Member since
    November 2004
Posted by stevebrauning on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 9:20 AM

Hey everyone.  I am a big fan of combining planes and ground vehicles, and have a slew of dioramas to prove it.  My first one combined 1/35 and 1/32 scale, but ever since  I have stuck with 1/48 scale which is much more suited.  I like the idea, and might use it myself!  But in 1/48 I have so many more options for aircraft, and recently there are lots more vehicles around including a Wirbelwind.  

 One other factor to consider is that the Wirbelwind was produced in small numbers and only late in the war; 

I read once somewhere that since the Russians' main antitank aircraft was the Sturmovik, for which 20mm was like spitballs, there tended to be more 37mm used in the East.  In that case, it would be more likely to see a Mobelwagon 37mm.   Any confirmation out there? 

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:17 PM

I stay in 1/35th for armor, with the exception of vehicles like trucks, jeeps, staff cars and such that I use in 1/48th aircraft dios..  This one's an armor diorama, since the focus is the Wirblewind (doing, or at least having done, its thing which is my reason for byuilding dios), the German infantry, and the Blitz (forthcoming) rather than the Spitfire...  1/48th combat figures aren't that plentiful, and the Tamiya infantry sets scale out to troops only 5 feet tall, so they're pretty much unusable...

My aircraft dioramas are 99.9% 1/48th, unless there's a story idea I get that can only be pulled off in 1/32/35th scale.. Luckily, the helicopters are starting to show up in 1/35th, so I've got a number of story-options featuring them, from Vietnam to Desert Storm and various peace-time training scenarios (which are often more fun than combat zone dios).. So no 1/48th armor will find its way into them except for possibly scenarios like I'm doing here...  But then, I'd rather do it in 1/35th since the amount of detail is much higher in that scale..

 

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Oregon
Posted by falschimjager on Saturday, May 16, 2009 6:47 PM
 vespa boy wrote:

Just my 2 cents. How about a Me109 shot down by the Wirbelwind and the pilot and tank commander trying to explain why it happened:

Pilot: "idiot"

tank commander: "The sun was in my eyes"

like when two poeple are talking after a car accident. You get the idea.

 

Better yet have the pilot hanging in a tree throwing a tantrum as two german infantrymen try to get him down.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Thursday, September 22, 2011 1:10 PM

Well, after two + years of it being "filed away for future ref", I've come to the following conclusion...

Ain't gonna do this:

That ain't a bad idea...  Gonna file that one for future ref.. Maybe a Mustang and an M-16 half-track...

Turns out that it is, indeed, a bad idea, since that's what happened  below in the action described.

Christmas Day, 1944.

The 328th FS of the 352nd FG had arrived at Y-29 in Aache, Belgium just two days before.  The 352 FG (8th AF) had been temporarily attached to the 9th AF, along with the 366th and 361st FGs...

Shortly before the end of the afternoon patrol, Ditto White Leader, along with Ditto White Two, was vectored to a position SW of Colblenz, where bandits had been spotted at barely a thousand feet AGL by US ground units...  Given the "Buster" call from the GCI controller, a pair of Bf 109s were soon sighted, and Ditto White Leader picked one out.  He made several turns with it at low altitude, and was closing with it when another 109 cut in between him and his first target. 

He gave the second 109 a quick burst, "hip-shooting" (without the sight), and observed "a lot of hits" from his six .50 cals... The canopy came off, and the German hit the silk.  Ditto White Lead immediately swung his blue-nosed P-51 back onto the first 109 and his K-14 gunsight was on it, almost as if it was tied to the hapless German...  The two Germans didn't even know that they'd just been up agianst the ranking US Army Air Force Ace in the ETO, Major George E. "Ratsy" Preddy... They lived to tell about it though, and would happily able to "eat another sauerkraut sammich" someday... Wink

Receiving a new vector, Preddy and his wingman, Lt James G. Cartee, changed course toward Liege, where bandits were reported to be strafing American troops. Now flashing 1500 feet AGL SE of Liege, a lone FW 190 was sighted by the pair  at tree-top level. Preddy told Cartee to cover him as he dropped even lower after the now-fleeing Focke-Wulf...

Snow piled up among the thick trees of the Hurtgen Forrest and the whole landscape was bleak and forbidding in the area of operations where Germany, Belgium, and Holland come together near Aachen...  The 12th AA Group (SP) had moved South shortly after the beginning of the Battle of Bulge, with their mission being the Anti-Aircraft Defense of XIX Corps AO.

The Group's main AA-batteries were 40mm Bofors cannons, but their most effective weapon by far against low-level attacks were the quad-fifties on the M16 AA Half-track.  The guns, mounted in an electrically-powered turret with a 60-degrees-per-second traverse speed and high volume-of-fire were devastatingly effective against "tree-top level" strafing attacks, and, used as fire-support for Infantry attacks, could eat a wall... The 12th was officially creditied with 291 enemy aircraft kills in WW2...

The individual batteries were equipped with an open-loop fire-control net (both radio and telephone) and that gave the guns needed early-warning speed against the fast-moving low-level aircraft. Gunners generally had about ten seconds to identify an aircraft as threat or friendly, then track, and then engage and destroy an enemy aircraft... They were generally out of range of the fifties after that period of time. 

Anyway, Friendly aircraft had been flying overhead all Christmas Moring, always at high-altitudes and usually blocked out by the overcast.... The gunners tried mostly to just keep warm in the iwnd as they manned the guns.  The radios crackled from time to time with reports from observers who spotted approaching aircraft, then suddenly the "FLASH! FLASH! FLASH! " signal came through the net that alerted all the guns in the area.  The message that followed was clear:

 "Two enemy BF 109s aproaching from the South-East at low altitude and strafing."... This was the direction of the German lines and all guns swung to point SE...  An instant later two aircraft entered the area from the SE, flying just over the tops of the snow-covered fir trees... The sound of machinegun fire was heard...

The AA Gunner had only an instant to react as the aircraft suddenly appeared over the trees surrounding the the field in which his M16 was located.  They were flying directly towards him and, in his estimation, were the hostile fighters reported.  He swung his guns slightly and touched the trigger briefly.  The guns had a combined rate-of -fire of some 3000 rounds per minute, but less than 60 rounds went downrange before he realized to his horror that the aircraft sweeping overhead were friendly.  

Lt Cartee was receiving hits from the groudfire and called for Preddy to break, but it was too late... "Cripes A' Mighty had run into the hail of fire.  Preddy blew his canopy and and nosed down, bellying-in in the same field as the AA Track.  Cartee made a wide circle and flew over the several times before heading back to Asche...

The AA Gun-crew ran to the crashed P-51, which had made a good landing on its belly and didn't burn.  In the opinion of those present, Preddy could have survived the crash, but he had been hit by two of the fift-cal rounds and was already dead...

Thus ended the career of the USAAF's leading ETO Ace. The Group credited him with 27.83 air-to-air and five ground-kills (the 8th AF gave kill-credit for enemy aircraft destroyed on the ground, a practice unique to them, and later stopped)...

The US Air Force Fighter Victory Credits Board, in 1956 and 1957, adjusted his final tally to 25.83 and further determined that ground-victories would not be included in determining total victories of any WW2 victory claims from the 8th AF.  (Or my dad woulda been a Fighter Ace too, lol)..

During his 17-month tour in the ETO, Major Preddy was awarded the DFC for actions on 6 August 44.  When asked once if he feared death, he replied in a letter that, "Although my aircraft might be shot down, I will not fall, because I have wings... Wings made not of wood or steel, but of a firmer kind, wings that God has given to me."...

Major Preddy  was 24 years old when he was shot down...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: Los Angeles
Posted by dostacos on Saturday, September 24, 2011 9:05 PM

A close family friend was in North Africa during WWII, he was the third guy in B 24s when they ferried them to the front {he said he was on the plane because the rules said 3 men to the crew} this unit was not a fighting unit at all. One day 3 Mustangs came in low over the Palm trees and opened up, turned out they were Messerschmitts, the unit had more casualties and destroyed that one day than they lost for the entire war.

one guy was sitting in the cockpit of a b24 and the Messerschmitt was so low and close he cut the wings off. pilot was uninjured.

Our friend was hit in the lower leg, taking it off below the knee. End up a certified prosthetist and made artificial limbs, instructed at UCLA. He was one of my mentors, fabulous guy, sure miss him

 

Oh and he would find a diorama of that or the others mentioned funny, like I said fabulous

Dan support your 2nd amendment rights to keep and arm bears!
  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Monday, September 26, 2011 3:10 AM

I don't have any problems doing it to a Soviet Spitfire...  It was only the Blue-on-Blue Mustang/M-16 incident I decided against...

Nothing I like to see more than one of Ivan's birds down... Toast The German Blue-on-Blue is ok too..

  • Member since
    November 2004
Posted by stevebrauning on Monday, September 26, 2011 7:34 AM

Here's one for you then: this is a 1/48 scale diorama.  Looking for comments (note: I know I need to add battle damage to the Airacobra I'm just scared to do it!!!)

http://s271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/stevebrauning/?action=view&current=AiracobraDown.jpg

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Monday, September 26, 2011 12:51 PM

Battle-damage isn't hard, it's just a little tricky and requires some planning.. It's best added prior to assembly... Take a steel-cutter bit and chuck it in the Dremel, and grind away at the plastic from the inside until it's paper-thin.. Then you turn the piece over and punch & twist through it from the outside with an X-acto knife...  (Doing it that way not only allows you to have scale edges on the holes, it also allows you to change your mind!)

Most of the damge comes from flak, which tears irregular holes in the skin, and from small-arms, which punch oblong-shaped holes (unless the angle is more or less perpendicular).. Machine guns aren't sewing machines, they punch holes in aircraft in a blob, rather than a line, tearing large portions of aircraft away from other portions of it.. 

You also need to plan out where the bullets and/or shrapnel is going to go once it hits the skin.. Is it going to hit the pilot, or just his armor plate? Cooling system? Engine? What's actually going to bring this thing down? A single paddy-daddy with an old Russian bolt-action can bring down a low-flying F-4 if he hits it in the right place (Pilot's call that "The Golden BB")...  By the same token, a Focke-Wulf 190 can use all his ammo on a Flying Fortress and have to give up and let it go, even though he's knocked out two engines, and killed or wounded everyone on board but the pilot...

In you case, the P-39 could've taken a hit to the cooling sysytem, which would give it only a few minutes of flight-time before its engine went belly-up from overheating, or a large caliber bullet could've thwacked into the engine and broke the crank, or even the drive-shaft, leaving no power to the prop...

Judging from the damage to the prop on your model, it was windmilling anyway...  Could've been as simple as Ivan there being so over-zealous as to not pay attention to his fuel guage and mis-calculated on "One more pass", lol...  At any rate, doing battle-damage is a "Less is More" kind of thing... The aircraft has to be able to remain airborne long enough for a survivable crash-landing, yet too far gone for a flight back across the lines... Witness Preddy's story, where he was able to make a crash-landing, yet was dead from gunshot wounds..  A couple  of  holes in the windscreen would've conveyed that... 

As for the rest of the diorama, I like it a lot... It conveys several historical things and puts them in context... The lend-lease program that the US had established with the USSR, the actual state of the German Army, with it's mix of horses & horse-drawn supply trains and armor vs the stories of "Blitzkrieg and it's Unstoppable Armored Colums", and the varying degrees of interest of the foot-bound German Infantrymen, some of whom are watching this little POW drama unfold with interest, and the weary, battle-hardened veterans who couldn't care less about Ivan's fate...

If I may crtique one item, it's the wide-open space on the front-left side of the diorama.. Although the rocks and creekbed fill it a bit, it still needs something else in that area.. A couple more troops covering Ivan from that angle perhaps, or even just some larger shrubs or a fallen/dead tree... And, just a personal pet-peeve of mine, is that shredded foam foliage you got there.. I think that stuff looks like foliage in small scales, but in 1/48 and up, it looks like foam... But the field-grass is excellent as is the terrain and the way you put the road in are really, really good, too..

The only other thing that would improve this work, as far as I can tell, is the addition of a reveal on the diorama's base... 

A Reveal is simply the "Frame" for the picture.. A half to 3/4ths inch-wide one is more than sufficient..

 While a reveal isn't required, by any means, it can often mean the difference between placing and winning at a contest..

 

 Oh, yeah..  Just one more thing... (in my best Columbo voice)

The cockpit doors on the P-39.. It's more likely that the pilot would have jettisoned the doors right after coming to a stop. Any "springing" of the airframe would've likely trapped him inside, and pilots have a tendency to want to egress as fast as they can.. Both doors on the P-39 will come off if you pull the jettison handles, so you can pop one off or both...  It's also a neat little way of showing yet another unusual design-feature of the aircraft, and allows your viewers even more visual access to the greeblies in the cockpit..

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    November 2004
Posted by stevebrauning on Monday, September 26, 2011 3:06 PM

Hi Hans and thanks for the excellent comments.  Based on what you said, I think I will leave the Airacobra as is, assuming a crash from "unknown causes" (a.k.a. pilot error), except for the door - I'll have the door that's open jettisoned.  One Q about that: would the jettisoned door be close by or thrown some distance?   I'll also work on the groundwork as you suggested, probably some rocks and a larger tree in the open space, or how about a Sd.Kfz. 231 or something of the sort?  Plus I think I'll sprinkle some tea leaves and so forth on the foam material.  I have never put any frames around my dioramas and you're probably right that it contributes to an unfinished look, and I probably should but I never put them in shows and do them mainly for my own satisfaction.  But I'll think about it..

Steve

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Friday, September 30, 2011 7:08 AM

Thanks for bringing that account of Preddy to my attention Hans. I have the markings for his aircraft and plan on doing it as part of my Norfolk airfields project.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Monday, October 3, 2011 11:45 PM

One Q about that: would the jettisoned door be close by or thrown some distance?  

They just fall off onto the wing, and maybe slide off to the front, if the aircraft is stopped when it happens...   (I know this from experience with the CAF P-39.. Whooppsie...Wink)

I'll also work on the groundwork as you suggested, probably some rocks and a larger tree in the open space, or how about a Sd.Kfz. 231 or something of the sort? 

Maybe... But in this particular case, I think a "less is More" approach is applicable, and another AFV would clutter it up and take attention the main action-subject, which is the P-39 pilot's capture..

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Monday, October 3, 2011 11:49 PM

Bish

Thanks for bringing that account of Preddy to my attention Hans. I have the markings for his aircraft and plan on doing it as part of my Norfolk airfields project.

Glad to do it, Bish.. Looking forward to seeing the piece..

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