...groundwork...

Sheetrock mud and spackling with real dirt (sifted) on thinned white glue, and any other real items I can come up with. Some bought WS grass.

 Everybody (nearly) uses cellu-clay !!!Not me  .  it makes a huge mess, takes forever to dry, and has to be mixed in a way difficult to get consistant results

    I urge you to click on my thread(s) and follow  along,  as I use some methods that are less common, along with some that are quite tried and true. For one thing I will not use Celluclay , paper-mache, white glue, or real dirt.(Too messy for me I guess, or just not the best choice(for me))---(Although not all Elmers products are bad, and I do like using sand sometimes !)

also repeated here in a recent post in reply to 'Kermit'   re: his'    "My first Dio" thread

This stuff is the best I've found,  & regular old spakle is nearly as good, and the two can be mixed together with good results.  ballast, pebbles,and sand can be pressed into place lke with celluclay, but another huge advantage with this material is that if a little more is needed somewhere you just pop the lid and get a little out and add it (small amounts dry in minutes).Cellu-clay with have you cursing you have to get everything dirty again and wait another day.

 But if you think doing things the same way as everybody else is the best way then-- nevermind

Manny-I suspect that that isn't you    (as you remarked twice before about results I got with the same material)        also--it's clear you are cut from a different cloth

Interesting...I've been toying with using something different for DITCY Part 2...I have become a little frustrated with the shrinkage of celluclay...also, it doesn't have a tendency to hold impressions very well from my experience (footprints, tire marks, etc...)...

Does the Elmer's wood-filler have a lot of shrinkage, odor, etc. ? Tell me more!

Manny, I've never used the stuff for modeling, but I've gone through my fair share of it in the ongoing construction of my new workspace as a seam filler on the dura-ply walls.

No shrinkage to speak of. It's low odor and relatively safe to use (lacking toluene) and cleans up with warm water. It sets up fast, but full cure can take a few days depending on a number of conditions (thickness, temperature, and humidity). Trust me on that - I tried to sand it after about 6 hours and it gunked up the 220 grit I was using, creating very little dust in the process. It sticks to almost anything (I want it to do that, but for your impressions in the groundwork I doubt you want it sticking to your models and pulling up pieces of groundwork, and unfortunately I don't have the answer to that one). Hope that helps a little.

Mansteins revenge wrote:

What is your preferred method for groundwork??? Not lookingfor long, drawn-out explanations in detail on how you make your groundwork, just what your basic materials are... Mine has been celluclay as a base with pigments and real materials (fine dirt, etc.) on top...

Me too, Manny!

Mansteins revenge wrote:

Interesting...I've been toying with using something different for DITCY Part 2...I have become a little frustrated with the shrinkage of celluclay...also, it doesn't have a tendency to hold impressions very well from my experience (footprints, tire marks, etc...)... Does the Elmer's wood-filler have a lot of shrinkage, odor, etc. ? Tell me more!

Basically when you go to put it down on the base, it should feel like thick muffin mix--like heavy dough. This is how I mix it, and I have no problem at all with shrinkage or keeping shape.

I would suspect that you're using too much water, and not enough gllue?

the doog wrote:

Mansteins revenge wrote: Interesting...I've been toying with using something different for DITCY Part 2...I have become a little frustrated with the shrinkage of celluclay...also, it doesn't have a tendency to hold impressions very well from my experience (footprints, tire marks, etc...)... Does the Elmer's wood-filler have a lot of shrinkage, odor, etc. ? Tell me more! Manny, you gotta add water TO the Celluclay til it's just darkened--squeeze the celluclay into the water, if you know what I mean. Add more cellluclay to the wet celluclay til it won't "take" any more because the water is depleted and then add quite a generous dollop of white glue as well. And then even squeeze it out in some lace that you get from the craft store; the lace will keep the celluclay from squeezing out when you squeeze out the excess  water. Basically when you go to put it down on the base, it should feel like thick muffin mix--like heavy dough. This is how I mix it, and I have no problem at all with shrinkage or keeping shape. I would suspect that you're using too much water, and not enough gllue?

Wow guys -- what an enormous pain in the butt that sounds like. Not your fault doog- I mean all you guys using cellu-clay. I know it's what Shep Paine talks about using in his books.(doesn't even mention any other way is possible)<<<--something the Master might  improve on ?         No way!   bull      Yeah manny-that Elmer's Wood Filler holds shape great, it will hold a detail like say, your fingerprint even. There's minimal shrink,(more if you use a really thick application) and only the vaguest smell of latex paint to it.

You guys.....        How about  you try building your foam or whatever up a little closer to the level you want when finished, and spreadin out a layer of ordinary wall spakle(or wall-filler in Europe) (or that superior product I strongly reccomended)shape it with spatula, popsickle stick, trowl, putty knife,  or what ever you got and after it sets up an hour or two, press in anything you want an impression of. In a few more hours(definitely next morning if you put it on thick) its totally dry, with no noticable shrinkage  (unless you buy the wrong one-the one thats all light and fluffy when you pick up the can)

Theres absolutely No mixing, No doubt ,No water, nearly No mess shrink or smell and it will hold the impression you need. Just try it.....  OK  ...I'm done.   Indy...out     

Again, pretty much what Doog said, tough I start withmuch less water so there's none to squeeze out. As to the building up of the ground levels, that wasn't part of the initial question, but once again, here's a step-by-step I published at Armorama a couple years ago.

For the record, I have not had shrinkage or cracking problems with Celluclay for over 20 years.

I also use just enough craft paint to tint it...half a bottle? That's a huge amount. Remember, the more liquid you put in, the more has to evaporate which will lead to shrinkage, cracking and extended drying times. Typically, a base dries overnight under a 60-100 watt bulb even in a cool and sometimes damp basement for me.

  The only "Dio" I have built so far, I used "Claycrete" same as "Celluclay", Dirt and small rocks sifted from a creekbed, static grass applied with a "Static Stick", "Supertrees", and the homemade tree I built from wire, tile grout and foliage.

                                                                                  doc

Hey Manny,

Being the lazy fellow that I am, it's just plaster, paint, and pigments in my little worlds.  I really have not had problems with it...even for professional work.

The process:

I pour my base into a form made from Duplo blocks over glasss...

Texture is added by using small bits of broken plaster...the first color is added by airbrush...

Details are painted using a brush....

A liberal amount of pigments are used to bring it all together....

Getting close to being finished....

As I mentioned, I use the same process in my professional work.  This scene is done using the same proceedures - 1/16 Scale - the size of this scene is approx. 40" x 36" and will be required to travel across the US for installation. 

Plaster is easy, strong, and durable.  I have no shrinkage problems, and once it's set very little in the way of cracks or chips.

Rick

Manny ...and Karl - I use Celluclay but hated mixing it. Picked up one of these for $4 on ebay

Works great. I get a nice consistant, lump free mix. Put everything in, clay, white glue, paint, water and stir. When I am done, I scoop out the excess, rinse and wipe with paper towel and for good measure, run in the dish washer. It is not at all messy and takes 5 minutes to clean.

I have not had too much shrinkage problems. On thicker bases, I put the celluclay over foam.

Rick - I like your idea.....ar you using premixed plaster or are you mixing it yourself???

One other question to all....Has anyone ever tried tile grout???

Rounds Complete!!

redleg12 wrote:

Rick - I like your idea.....ar you using premixed plaster or are you mixing it yourself??? One other question to all....Has anyone ever tried tile grout??? Rounds Complete!!

I'm mixing my own plaster; it's easy to vary the consistancy depending on what effects I'm trying to get.  No, I haven't used tile grout.

Rick

RickLawler wrote:

redleg12 wrote: Rick - I like your idea.....ar you using premixed plaster or are you mixing it yourself??? One other question to all....Has anyone ever tried tile grout??? Rounds Complete!! I'm mixing my own plaster; it's easy to vary the consistancy depending on what effects I'm trying to get.  No, I haven't used tile grout. Rick

Rick

I purchased plaster of paris and have never been successful in being able to add trackmarks, tyre marks etc. Celluclay works fairly well in that regard.

How does one know that "sweet" spot when the plaster is firm enough to take impressions without being too wet or cured to much?

Cheers and thanks

Mike

madmike wrote:

RickLawler wrote:  redleg12 wrote: Rick - I like your idea.....ar you using premixed plaster or are you mixing it yourself??? One other question to all....Has anyone ever tried tile grout??? Rounds Complete!! I'm mixing my own plaster; it's easy to vary the consistancy depending on what effects I'm trying to get.  No, I haven't used tile grout. Rick Rick I purchased plaster of paris and have never been successful in being able to add trackmarks, tyre marks etc. Celluclay works fairly well in that regard. How does one know that "sweet" spot when the plaster is firm enough to take impressions without being too wet or cured to much? Cheers and thanks Mike

By the way, awesome groundwork !!!!

MR, lightweight spackling is what I have had good luck with for footprints and tire marks....

Hey guys,

The spackling paste is a good way to get the track marks, foot prints etc., my only issue with using it is that it sometimes wants to pull away from the underlying plaster.  Magic Sculpt or Apoxie Sculpt is a better option if you don't have too large area to work.

The "sweet spot" for the plaster is tricky...and fleeting.  I generally mix it a little on the runny side then allow it to come-up to the proper consistancy.  I then spread plastic wrap over the surface and press whatever into the wrap/plaster - wait a few minutes, pull the wrap and your are set.

Rick

RickLawler wrote:

Hey guys, The spackling paste is a good way to get the track marks, foot prints etc., my only issue with using it is that it sometimes wants to pull away from the underlying plaster.  Magic Sculpt or Apoxie Sculpt is a better option if you don't have too large area to work. The "sweet spot" for the plaster is tricky...and fleeting.  I generally mix it a little on the runny side then allow it to come-up to the proper consistancy.  I then spread plastic wrap over the surface and press whatever into the wrap/plaster - wait a few minutes, pull the wrap and your are set. Rick

As far as the spakle "pulling up from underlying" surface...it might if its really smooth, (I'd score it with a blade) ,but works perfect on a job-specific substrate like the wire-mesh armature I show in  my SBS here:  /forums/1177739/ShowPost.aspx 

 and the Elmers Wood Filler is less prone to that then the regular spackle. With either one, waiting an hour or two for some of the drying-out to happen is a good idea before pressing in any objects for impressions. I have used that sarahnwrap method for pressing items in while wet, and it worked pretty well, but I agree there is no better result that a two-part epoxy putty and I've used it when I needed a really critical detail in place- but who can afford to form a whole base from it, right?

The enbankments where an area I had a very specific look in mind for, they were molded  into place from long slabs of Milliput, and sculpted using a wet penny held in a hemostat.

Once the detail areas of groundwork are in place, the rest is put put on with the spakle. (But notice that I carve my foam pretty close to the desired shape beforehand.

In any case, I do plan to experiment with some plaster for say, rock-face castings, and some for structures, so any more tips are welcome regarding the magic of mixing it up.

Depends on the dio... Celluclay for earth, mixed with dirt, glue, & tempera paint for color... Sheetrock mud for concrete, asphalt, & cobblestones.  Plaster for water. In the old days, I used plaster for earth, then added sand or dirt for the texture, but the damn things would weigh a ton... 

Also, like Redleg said, a cheap food processor or blender is a must-have.. I picked up a couple blenders at a yard sale for 3.00 each and have been using them for years to mix Celluclay... Makes a smooth paste every time...

How does one know that "sweet" spot when the plaster is firm enough to take impressions without being too wet or cured to much?

 I'd try covering your cured plaster with a thin layer of sheetrock mud and pressing the tracks into that instead of the plaster...  If you want to use plaster only though, you can a bit of vinegar to the mix to retard the drying time a bit and that'll give you a bit of leeway... But no matter what, the "window" is pretty small, just a few minutes.  The best way for finding that window is probably to mix a bit more than you need and pour the excess onto another surface and check it every few minutes until the test-bed is taking your impressions, and then work fast on the project surface...

I guess the workability window for Celluclay is one of the best things about it.

I have used plaster on a couple of projects and have never been really successful with laying down impressions. Sounds like a test project or two is the way forward.

For a singleton (1:72 as per usual) model, I tend to use a drink coaster MDF available from craft shops. They are pre cut and smoothed and final sanding works well. The downside is, though perfect for my needs is the relative thinness which means if the base mixture is too thick and wet, warping can occur.

I put that down to too much moisture still left in the celluclay though as Doog pointed out.

Cheers

Mike

I've only made one base so far, and i'm still adding details to it so it's not quite finished...

But the way I've made it is using the Woodland Scenics Casting Plaster.

When i first started to use it I followed the instructions and it came out far too runny...like melted ice cream. So having no idea what i was really doing I started adding in various amounts of white glue, more plaster powder, and woodland scenics railway ballast. I kept adding too it until it was nice, thick and mouldable

I then spooned it out onto my MDF base and shaped it to the way i wanted, adding tank tracks, foot prints etc. As i was adding the tank tracks and foot prints water from the mixture came up to the surface, so i just soaked it up using some paper towel.

 I then chucked it into the bathroom with the heater running and a few hours later it was solid as a rock and not the slighest sign of shrinking. Even the mixing bowl i neglected to clean up was still covered in the stuff and as i grabbed at chunks stuck to the side, they proved very hard to break off.

Cheers,

Camo

INDY wrote:

the doog wrote:  Mansteins revenge wrote: Interesting...I've been toying with using something different for DITCY Part 2...I have become a little frustrated with the shrinkage of celluclay...also, it doesn't have a tendency to hold impressions very well from my experience (footprints, tire marks, etc...)... Does the Elmer's wood-filler have a lot of shrinkage, odor, etc. ? Tell me more! Manny, you gotta add water TO the Celluclay til it's just darkened--squeeze the celluclay into the water, if you know what I mean. Add more cellluclay to the wet celluclay til it won't "take" any more because the water is depleted and then add quite a generous dollop of white glue as well. And then even squeeze it out in some lace that you get from the craft store; the lace will keep the celluclay from squeezing out when you squeeze out the excess  water. Basically when you go to put it down on the base, it should feel like thick muffin mix--like heavy dough. This is how I mix it, and I have no problem at all with shrinkage or keeping shape. I would suspect that you're using too much water, and not enough gllue? Wow guys -- what an enormous pain in the butt that sounds like. Not your fault doog- I mean all you guys using cellu-clay. I know it's what Shep Paine talks about using in his books.(doesn't even mention any other way is possible)

I suspect that we all think "our way" is easiest, and most of us won't change their minds. I, for one, absolutely hate using plaster and spackle--I think THAT is messier-n-hell! I used it for my Field Kitchen dio, published in the recent FSM "special issue", but only did that because the stark white color would have been hard to get with Celluclay.

Indy, your base looks nice in that post you made; however, when I look at your method, I can't help but think that it's much more cost-intensive than I would want to deal with. Milliput ain't cheap--and I like Celluclay because it's all one product--not mixing mediums like water-based spackle/plaster, epoxy-based putty (which can be affected by the water, right?) as well as the wood filler, which isn't cheap either. Certainly not as affordable as a big block of celluclay which can last you many dios. I also find that celluclay is the perfect stuff for holding impressions, and I've been amazed at the fine detail which it will capture.

Some of the advantages of celluclay that I didn't address are the fact that you can "pre-paint" it by adding paint to it while mixing it. No need to even paint the base if you do that. Also, celluclay stays somewhat-pliable for up to a good week or more so after it dries--there have been times when I've thought, "Oh crap--I wish I had put in a rut there" for a log, or piece of scener, or variation on the ground level. WIth a blunt tool you can press in a rut with some firm pressure. Also, it's super-easy to punch through it to stick in long grass, trees, or other vertical elements. And you can store it for literally months in a plastic in the refrigerator once you mix it up. I do a big lump of it at one time, and then keep it for whenever I need it--no need to remix and get all dirty as you alluded to.

The simple key to remember when working with it is this--don't add too much water--and remember that both white glue and acrylic paint are water-based and can be used to bind and whet the material. You will not have the problems which sound like they turned you against it.

Using celluclay, when I add impressions during the laying down of the mix (such as tracklines or road ruts), the detail tends to "soften" as the celluclay dried.

Doog, when do you stamp in the tracklines et al? 

Cheers

Mike

the doog wrote:

INDY wrote:  the doog wrote:  Mansteins revenge wrote: Interesting...I've been toying with using something different for DITCY Part 2...I have become a little frustrated with the shrinkage of celluclay...also, it doesn't have a tendency to hold impressions very well from my experience (footprints, tire marks, etc...)... Does the Elmer's wood-filler have a lot of shrinkage, odor, etc. ? Tell me more! Manny, you gotta add water TO the Celluclay til it's just darkened--squeeze the celluclay into the water, if you know what I mean. Add more cellluclay to the wet celluclay til it won't "take" any more because the water is depleted and then add quite a generous dollop of white glue as well. And then even squeeze it out in some lace that you get from the craft store; the lace will keep the celluclay from squeezing out when you squeeze out the excess  water. Basically when you go to put it down on the base, it should feel like thick muffin mix--like heavy dough. This is how I mix it, and I have no problem at all with shrinkage or keeping shape. I would suspect that you're using too much water, and not enough gllue? Wow guys -- what an enormous pain in the butt that sounds like. Not your fault doog- I mean all you guys using cellu-clay. I know it's what Shep Paine talks about using in his books.(doesn't even mention any other way is possible) Actually, not a pain at all, Indy. It's actually a pretty easy process once you get into the habit. And I've been getting consistent results, trouble-free for over 20 years as well. I suspect that we all think "our way" is easiest, and most of us won't change their minds. I, for one, absolutely hate using plaster and spackle--I think THAT is messier-n-hell! I used it for my Field Kitchen dio, published in the recent FSM "special issue", but only did that because the stark white color would have been hard to get with Celluclay. Indy, your base looks nice in that post you made; however, when I look at your method, I can't help but think that it's much more cost-intensive than I would want to deal with. Milliput ain't cheap--and I like Celluclay because it's all one product--not mixing mediums like water-based spackle/plaster, epoxy-based putty (which can be affected by the water, right?) as well as the wood filler, which isn't cheap either. Certainly not as affordable as a big block of celluclay which can last you many dios. I also find that celluclay is the perfect stuff for holding impressions, and I've been amazed at the fine detail which it will capture. Some of the advantages of celluclay that I didn't address are the fact that you can "pre-paint" it by adding paint to it while mixing it. No need to even paint the base if you do that. Also, celluclay stays somewhat-pliable for up to a good week or more so after it dries--there have been times when I've thought, "Oh crap--I wish I had put in a rut there" for a log, or piece of scener, or variation on the ground level. WIth a blunt tool you can press in a rut with some firm pressure. Also, it's super-easy to punch through it to stick in long grass, trees, or other vertical elements. And you can store it for literally months in a plastic in the refrigerator once you mix it up. I do a big lump of it at one time, and then keep it for whenever I need it--no need to remix and get all dirty as you alluded to. The simple key to remember when working with it is this--don't add too much water--and remember that both white glue and acrylic paint are water-based and can be used to bind and whet the material. You will not have the problems which sound like they turned you against it.

It's ok Doog, I accept your apology.         LOL, just kiddin Buddy. Hey Nuthin's perfect, we all figure out ways to get results with the medium(s) we're working with. You are right, my choice of materials is not the cheapest, but this wasn't a factor really being adressed (yet) More like a discussion of what we feel is best,or as Manny had asked prefered. What's best is usually not the cheapest. Of course, it's only the best if you can make it work for you.     As for epoxy putty being expensive, I touched on that, if I could afford to I'd make the entire base out of it. One thing for sure, it's not affected by water once cured(in fact it was developed to do underwater repairs and as a quick plumbers remedy!)      As far as the advatages of cellu-clay staying pliable, well I see that as unstable and likely I might damage it before I'm done. Also, mixing in the paint and just going with that color has never once looked good,  IMO. I like to get out the airbrush and start painting the next day without having to wonder if the base is cured. I agree with you that plaster is messy, but definately worth it for some purposes. The spackle & filler sticks right to my pallette knife, no drips, no runs, no tears.