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"Clearing the Trench" Dio. - W.I.P.

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  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Saturday, January 9, 2010 11:28 AM

Cut my terrain contour and started on the trench and observation post this morning:

 - Still wet, the celluclay looks a bit sloppy .... once it firms up, I'll smooth it out some.....

Less than 10% of the 'O.P.' interior will be visible when the diorama is completed though I still feel the need to complete it.

rb

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Sunday, January 10, 2010 3:46 AM

That trench looks superb, razorboy. Nice work on the figs and the StuG crew, especially.

I'm a little worried about your layout though--just from a purely technical point; infantry in the wide open fields of Kursk would not have been "using a Stug for cover". In fact, most likely they would have been avoiding getting too close to any armor there at all.

IN the Armor forums, Roy Chow of AMPS presented an interview transcript from WWII German tank veteran Wolfgang Kloth, who actually commanded a tank at Kursk. You can find that here.

In it, he stated: WOLFGANG K: "At Kursk, it was four days. And that was not very fun. The Germans faced for the first time, HUGE numbers of T-34s dug in – up to the turret. And that’s a bad deal – very bad. Number one, they are hard to see. Number two, they are hard to hit. And number three, they had already pre-determined distances to targets. “You know that they have to come through there, over that hill is 1500 meters and over there is 1200.” They were WAY in the advantage, way in the advantage. That was a sad affair. We really took a beating."

If you think about that, the Russin tanks were knocking the hell out of the Germans, and at pre-determined distances, I'm not so sure that the infantry would have wanted to be right next to them--and especially with a walking "incendiary bomb" in their midst?

I've also read in other books that you didn't want to be next to tanks, as they tended to draw fire, and if they got hit, the concussion alone could kill a man. Of course, in street scene dios, figure placement might be a little more forgivable, but in a Field scene in the heat f battle, I think you might be stretching the plausibility just a bit?

Might not necessarily want to call it "Kursk" in the name?

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:11 AM

I grew up next to an old gentleman in Northern Virginia, who had been working for the U.S. Government in some capacity unknown to me,  since the 50's.   I knew him only as Mr. Karl.  He had been in the Waffen SS (I never asked which unit) and on occasion, would tell me "War Stories" about fighting what he referred to as the "Bolsheviks", in stifling heat and deadly cold - for 3 years.  He told me about the Russian "Tank Destroyer" Dogs with explosive harnesses on, something I still have a hard time believing.  He told me about the reckless advances he and his "Komrads" made throughout the war, destroying T-34's with hand-applied explosives early in the war, and with panzerfausts later on.  He told of going into local battles that lasted for days at a time, where literally every man in his Company were either killed, missing or wounded.  Mr. Karl spoke of advancing while using "panzers" as cover from machine gun fire, the armor commanders running up to and sometimes over or through the machine gun position, the infantry pouring into the breach created. There was a cavalier attitude of superiority and recklessness in battle among the Waffen SS and the armor and figures depicted in this diorama are meant to represent that.

* I'm a little worried about your layout though--just from a purely technical point; infantry in the wide open fields of Kursk would not have been "using a Stug for cover". In fact, most likely they would have been avoiding getting too close to any armor there at all.

 - They did in fact use tanks for cover while advancing, I have not only read accounts stating this but have spoken to a Waffen SS Mann that was there.  As far as wide open fields at Kursk, that is the general assumption but there were woodlots, villages with trees, water courses, ravines, etc. - the entire area was not steppe.  Bottom line is, we can't see what is behind, beside or in front of this chunk of battlefield being represented in this diorama - for all we know, there may be blocking high ground preventing anything but immediate defense. 

* In it, he stated: WOLFGANG K: "At Kursk, it was four days. And that was not very fun. The Germans faced for the first time, HUGE numbers of T-34s dug in – up to the turret. And that’s a bad deal – very bad. Number one, they are hard to see. Number two, they are hard to hit. And number three, they had already pre-determined distances to targets. “You know that they have to come through there, over that hill is 1500 meters and over there is 1200.” They were WAY in the advantage, way in the advantage. That was a sad affair. We really took a beating."

If you think about that, the Russin tanks were knocking the hell out of the Germans, and at pre-determined distances, I'm not so sure that the infantry would have wanted to be right next to them--and especially with a walking "incendiary bomb" in their midst?

 - Perhaps in Herr Kloth's sector there were T-34's buried up to the turret, the Russians had adequate time to build a defense, three and four lines deep .... but one can't assume that this tactic was used throughout the entire region.  I am certain that the Stug. and Infantry in this diorama would have used another tactic in their approach had there been the threat of long range fire from a 76mm or other gun.  I agree, the thought of their cover being knocked out and blowing them up as well might have been a deterent - if that was the case.  This is not the case.

* I've also read in other books that you didn't want to be next to tanks, as they tended to draw fire, and if they got hit, the concussion alone could kill a man. Of course, in street scene dios, figure placement might be a little more forgivable, but in a Field scene in the heat f battle, I think you might be stretching the plausibility just a bit?

 - Would tanks draw fire less in a street setting?  The question is not what would happen to the Infantry if their cover were hit  -  I know as well as you that it would be a mess.  The question is, "Should we advance into this machine gun fire and trenchline behind a Sturmgeschutz  that has made it all of the way up here without drawing anti-tank fire, or should we advance without it?" - I'm following the Stug....

*Might not necessarily want to call it "Kursk" in the name?

 -  This is a diorama depicting a scene on the battlefield during the Kursk Offensive -

 As you can see, the offensive covered an extensive area.  Kursk Dio. - W.I.P. - is just the generic subject title, the actual title of this diorama is "Clearing the Trench".

 

Thanks for your comments Doog, I can only hope that this has cleared up a few misconceptions.

razorboy

  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: Ventura (at the beach) in California
Posted by *INDY on Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:13 PM

Well Done  Sad    Good to see some progress, now that the Holidays are behind us. Yes What you have so far is looking really good RB

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee2/froglevelzcool/Stug%20III%20build/DSCN32180001.jpg

As stated widely regarding this builds concept..... It makes plenty of sense and should look good!

"Well...you gunna pull them pistols, or just whistle Dixie?"

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:28 PM

Thanks Indy,

I have nearly completed the trench construction today.  Some touch up with Celluclay and paint as well as final weathering is still pending -


Next I will finish the O.P. roof, then it's back to the Stug.III to finish her and the crewmen.  I won't finish the ground work until the Stug. & crew as well as the infantry are finished and have been assigned their final positions on the base.
razorboy

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Monday, January 11, 2010 5:24 AM

Well, it's your dio, razorboy.Just remember that some would say that if you have to explain your scene or justify it, that that weakens your composition. It's nicely laid out, and the elements are cool, but I'm just a stickler about composition--don't take it personally! Embarrassed

I just know that I've read more than once that at least three things were guaranteed to draw more fire--tanks, groups of soldiers, and "high priority" targets like officers and flame thrower dudes, and that nobody liked being next to the flame thrower guys cuz if they got hit, more than likely they blew up in a ball of sticky, fiery mess.

I would have involved less soldiers--maybe three--and put the two on the opposite side of the tank from flamethrower guy..I also would have put a gun in the hands of that Russian, or make some more urgency on his part--I would think he would know that there was a tank coming up on him? .just my two cents. Smile

I agree with not using the "KursK" name in the dio though!

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Monday, January 11, 2010 4:55 PM

Thanks for your comments Doog, I value your opinion.  The Russian with the RPG does have a gun, it's not in his hands for this pic.  I am beginning to wonder if I should continue to post my W.I.P.'s - there seems to be a certain amount of second guessing and confusion when it comes to my original vision.... and to be perfectly honest with everyone, I don't handle criticism well at all ... particularly when I know what it should look like and there are those who see a different scene befrore I can finish it.   Well, perception is reality I guess.

Thanks Doog - No Worries,

Dave

  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: Charlottesville Va
Posted by Stern0 on Monday, January 11, 2010 5:52 PM

Great work Dave! The trench is INCREDIBLE! Of course your tank and figs will look great as always....Wish I knew a little more about things as far as the critiques go....I just think it looks pretty dam cool! Wink Keep on keeping on!Big Smile

Always Faithful U.S.M.C
  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 3:20 AM

Thanks for the support Steve.  I learn something new everytime I build and this time, if I've learned nothing else, it's not to give a storyline.  I have gotten at least twice, the comment "A good diorama tells it's own story" - "No commentary needed." .... or something to that effect.  I assure you all that as soon as it is done, the story will become quite evident.  In the meantime, no more commentary on my part..... it apparently makes people uneasy.

Thanks again, SternO

rb

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 9:38 AM

Dave,

Please don't let criticism spoil your enjoyment of building, nor our enjoyment of seeing your fine work. Criticism is offered in the finest spirit of encouragement and the desire to see you sweep awards with this fine piece at any contest. That is, after all, part of the spirit of the forums--to improve and to learn. SOmetimes the road is smooth, sometimes a little bumpy. NO one is here to degrade your work--only to earnestly offer suggestions in order to always improve, You are free to disregard all comments at will! Smile

 

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Tuesday, January 12, 2010 5:53 PM

Thanks Doog, It's all good.  And just for the record ..... I always disregard all comments at will.Wink

 

rb

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, January 14, 2010 9:39 AM

Hey RB

I think your dio WIP is superb and I think the story-line is apparent.  The more you complete, the clearer it becomes.

As far as small unit tactics go  - lets put it this way: to the infantry man, any cover is better than no cover.  If his choice is to hide behind or near a tank that MAY get hit and MAY injure or kill him, versus standing in the open where he WILL get killed by machine gun fire, well, you tell me what you think the guy is going to do. 

I think your composition and your story are right on.  Please keep posting your progress!!

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:52 PM

Thanks bbrowniii, hopefully I'll get some time to work on it some more this weekend.... I'll post more then.

rb

  • Member since
    October 2009
  • From: South Carolina
Posted by jetmodeler on Sunday, January 17, 2010 9:46 AM

Your trench came out great.

 

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Monday, January 18, 2010 4:57 PM

Thanks jetmodeler, it's truly been a labor of love.

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posted by model maniac 96 on Friday, January 22, 2010 9:57 PM

Ditto, sweet!

"Veni, Vidi, Vici" Julius Caesar: I came, I saw, I conquered.
  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Saturday, January 23, 2010 3:54 PM

I didn't care for the way that "Fire Step" log looked so after researching a few more photos, it was removed and a handmade ladder added - I think it "Fits" better:

As you can see, the log roof is completed - eventually it will be covered with a scale canvas, then dirt and sod, leaving only the log ends on the front side visible:

razorboy

  • Member since
    October 2009
  • From: South Carolina
Posted by jetmodeler on Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:12 PM

That ladder does look better.

 

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Sunday, January 24, 2010 7:36 AM

Thanks, I thought so.  I will be adding some bindings to the rungs before it's finished.

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Sunday, January 24, 2010 6:03 PM

I finished the Stug construction today(except the tracks) and now she's ready for some paint - dunkelgreb oversprayed lightly with  rotes braun:

I also added the loaders MG 42 with ammo belt stowed and visible:

rb

  • Member since
    October 2009
  • From: South Carolina
Posted by jetmodeler on Friday, January 29, 2010 3:15 PM

Can't wait to see it painted & finished.

 

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:59 PM

I got two of the grenadiers "Kitted-Out" with all of their gear today. There is still a bit of filling and seam removal to be done on these fellas and the others but it is fast approaching paint time. The standing figure will be MG 42 ammo carrier #2 and the kneeling figure in this set of pics is flammenwerfer guy's assistant and I thought that title justified a fixed bayonette.

I will do this for all of the infantry figures prior to painting then paint all of them assembly line style, doing all of the smocks and helmet covers at the same time.  This will insure greater continuity in colour and pattern as I usually mix my own paint.
rb

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Monday, February 1, 2010 5:54 PM

I realized today that "Flammenwerfer's Guy's" assistant had not only a bayonette fixed on his KaR 98k but one also "Fixed" in his bayonette scabbard.

I have since altered his scabbard to appear "Bayonetteless"........
Sorry!
rb

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, February 1, 2010 8:44 PM

Looking very cool...watch those tiny seams on the figs---especially around the wrist/hands...YesYes

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 3:23 AM

Manstein's revenge

Looking very cool...watch those tiny seams on the figs---especially around the wrist/hands...YesYes

Noted.  Those little buggers do show up nicely in a closeup - don't they!  Big Smile

  • Member since
    October 2009
  • From: South Carolina
Posted by jetmodeler on Monday, February 8, 2010 4:24 PM

I really hate it when those are there. Then you don't really see them until all the paint is on and finished. That really makes me mad.Bang Head

 

  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: Charlottesville Va
Posted by Stern0 on Monday, February 8, 2010 8:58 PM

Comming right along Dave...looking GREAT....Are you comming to Richmond this year for the ODO?

Always Faithful U.S.M.C
  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Tuesday, February 9, 2010 6:20 AM

I worked on the "Squad Leader" last night and got all of his equipment attached (except for his binoculars and MP40) and today will give him the once-over for any needed filling and additional seam removal.  I will work on the "Grip" appearance of his hands prior to permanently affixing the binoculars and MP40.  The kit shows him with a stick grenade in his belt and I have forgone that and substituted a signal (flare) gun instead.

I am almost ready to shoot some paint on the Stug. -

but at this point I am undecided as to wether I will use a canvas cover on the gun mantlet or not.  If I do, it needs to be done prior to spraying.  I'll decided on that sometime today.

*** As far as the ODO goes Stern0, I am definately gonna make it this year!

razorboy

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 5:56 AM

I got the base coat down on the Stug and inside of the road wheels last night. 

Some touch up here and there on the hull and rear, paint the other side of the wheels, paint the fighting compartment roof section, then shoot some camo..

rb

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Willow Oaks Compound / Model Bunker
Posted by razorboy on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 6:00 PM

I've applied my camo pattern to the Stug. and have the ladeschutz about 75% finished:

rb

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