P-47 vs The P-51.

QUOTE: Originally posted by maddafinga QUOTE: Originally posted by Keyworth The pilot was Bob Johnson of the 56th FG. They counted over 20 20MM holes as well. the a/c was carted off as junk when they finished cutting him out of the cockpit. The defense rests :D Here's a pic of the tail of that plane.

Here's part of the story as Maj. Johnson told it in "Thunderbolt":
There are twenty-one gaping holes and jagged tears in the metal from exploding 20mm cannon shells. I'm still standing in one place when my count of bullet holes reaches past a hundred; there's no use even trying to add them all. The Thunderbolt is literally a sieve, holes through the wings, fuselage and tail. Every square foot, it seems is covered with holes. There are five holes in the propeller. Three 20mm cannon shells burst against the armor plate, a scant inch away from my head. Five cannon shell holes in the right wing; four in the left wing. Two cannnon shells blasted away the lower half of my rudder. One shell exploded in the cockpit, next to my left hand; this is the blast that ripped away the flap handle. More holes appeared along the fuselage and in the tail. Behind the cockpit, the metal is twisted and curled; this had jammed the canopy, trapping me inside.
The airplane had done her best. Needless to say, she would never fly again.

They were both the best but for different reasons. The P-47 is close to my heart because of a picture I have of a Razorback with the name "Molly" on the cowl and my Dad with 12 others in front of the left wing. It was named after Melvin "Molly" Mollberg, my namesake, who died in the crash of a C-47 on May 13, 1945, Mother's Day! He had taken my Dad's place as part of the flight crew. In 1974 I was lucky to get a 30 minute hop in the jump seat of a P-51D and it was flight to remember! The "51" is all smooth flowing lines and the "Jug" is a lovable brute!

By far the P-47 hands down. If it wasnt for the british putting the merlin engine in the mustang it wouldnt have lived up to the airplane that it was and probally would have been cancelled.

Both aircraft were designed for different rolls and were very good at their own area of operations. The jug was a big heavy mother that went in banged some heads and went out, it could take hits and keep coming and was excelent for low level support. When you went up high in the thin atmosphere and long range escort missions the 'Stang beat all. Fuel injection helped to make it a very capable fighter. I don't think either one is the best statisticaly but we all gotta have an opinion right? P-51 all the way.

I voted for the best fighter but, during combat. The P51 was the troughbred for sure but for my money I would want a good sturdy plane that can take the punishment as well as dish it out. So I think the point of the question " which is your favorite fighter " may also include engagement. I still would go with the P47.

DaveB

Re the XP-47J - it happens to be my favorite Jug variant. Too bad the cool-looking cowl and spinner never made it into the production variants. From what I understand there were originally supposed to be two "J" prototypes built with the second having a bubble canopy.

Jim

Depends on which P-51 and which P-47 we're talking about. Everyone almost always is referring to the P-51D and most talk about the P-47D. The max range for the P-47D was around 1800 miles while the P-51Ds range was around 2300 miles. The P-51D's top speed is listed to be around 437mph @ 25000'.
The P-47N however had a range of almost 2400 miles. This version escorted B-29s all the way from Saipan. Plus its listed top speed was 448mph @ 25000'.
The M version was basically built just to intercept V1 buzz bombs. It was lightened and had little armor, included water injection and was fitted with airbrakes. It also had no external hardpoints.

Dont forget the XP-47J was the first propeller driven fighter to exceed 500mph in level flight.

I have read that the R-2800's could be turned up to very high horsepower levels, like around 3200hp. They did wear out sooner but didnt suffer any failures at all, just a shorter TBO.

My preference (my choice, meaning its my view whether consitent or inconsistent with others views) would be the P-47. Later versions could do what a P-51 could do plus some and have the big radial engine up front, you cant go wrong with that. (Though sincerely deep down, I always wanted to be in the bombers)

I happen to prefer the Jug, but this thread is the old "apples and oranges" comparison. While the Mustang had a big edge in range which made it better for long-range escort, the Jug was better for tactical work because of it's durability, firepower, and load. Both airplanes could hold their own in air-to-air combat. It is a matter of utilizing the good points of the airplane you are flying regardless of what it is.

Jim

Guys,

Good thread, tough choice. Since I'm a proponent of Close Air Support, I'd have to go with the Jug, but each airplane certainly has its merits. Now to address the speed issue.... Depending on the dash number of the D or any later model, the P-47 and not the P-51 had the speed advantage. The P-47M on full war-emergency power topped out at just under 480mph. Granted speed like that is going to blow the engine if maintained for an extended period of time, but it could do it, where the P-51 topped out at 440mph. I've got a 48th Hasegawa P-47D that I converted to an M flown by Polish Ace Witold Lanowski when he was attached to the 56th FG. Beautiful black upper surfaces over bare metal. Its one of my best models ever....

Give me the Jug. My dad (WW II vet) says that the P-38 was the cat's meow during the war.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Keyworth The pilot was Bob Johnson of the 56th FG. They counted over 20 20MM holes as well. the a/c was carted off as junk when they finished cutting him out of the cockpit. The defense rests :D

Here's a pic of the tail of that plane.

QUOTE: Originally posted by EasyCo This is from my brother..... I'd say the edge goes to the P-51...pilots being equal (which they never are). Jug dives a little better, but the 51 was no slouch either and had very high E retention. Edge in speed goes to the 51 and it had better climb over 20,000 ft. What the 51 was best at was high speed turning. If I was a 51 pilot, I'd put the plane nose down...the 47 would catch me and I'd go into a sharp turn.... If the 47 pilot knew what he was doing, he'd probably go straight into a zoom climb and depending on altitude I'd have to climb after him. He'd then have to dive away...which he could, but I'd catch him eventually due to my speed and fuel advantage; after he ran out of altitude...fight over!!

If you dove in your Mustang, and I went into a zoom with my Jug, I'd hammerhead at the top and have a good clear shot at your top as you climb back up to me. Game over.

There is also the option to performa lag roll and just follow that sharp turn. A good pilot can account for just about any maneuver there is. Robert Johnson beat a high Spit 9 with his Jug in a mock dogfight. Acm is like chess, there are moves, and counters, and counters to counters and counters to counters counters etc... It's a beautiful thing.

This is from my brother.....


I'd say the edge goes to the P-51...pilots being equal (which they never are). Jug dives a little better, but the 51 was no slouch either and had very high E retention. Edge in speed goes to the 51 and it had better climb over 20,000 ft. What the 51 was best at was high speed turning. If I was a 51 pilot, I'd put the plane nose down...the 47 would catch me and I'd go into a sharp turn.... If the 47 pilot knew what he was doing, he'd probably go straight into a zoom climb and depending on altitude I'd have to climb after him. He'd then have to dive away...which he could, but I'd catch him eventually due to my speed and fuel advantage; after he ran out of altitude...fight over!!

Give me the Mustang over the P-47 anyday when it comes to the ETO. The Jug as it was called could not do the most important thing and that was bomber escourt. If it wasnt for the Mustang the Allied bombing campaign would have failed. But in the end BOTH fighters did their respective jobs well. So which one was the best? I believe both were the best and thank god we had them when we did. Enough said.

Steve

I like the P-47 better because it used the same engine as the F4U Corsair - the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 radial. That engine could take a beating and keep on ticking. Supposedly, based on a few books I've read, it was (arguably) the best aircraft piston engine ever produced. The P-47, F4U, F6F, F7F, P-61, and others that I'm sure I'm forgetting, all used this engine.

P-47's rule! Ok I said it, Ed. Now give me that five spot you promised so I can get that P-51 kit I've been eyeing at Hobby Lobby.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MikeV I would agree that this argument is subjective and nobody is going to win it. Mike

Mike sums it all up!!!

P-47.
Don't get me wrong, the P-51 is a beautiful aircraft and from what I've read it's a joy to fly (unless you don't drain the internal fuselage tank behind the pilot prior to the other tanks...they say it would swap ends on you if you didn't). I think for all around best between the two, the P-47 wins for protectability, ability to take punishment and still keep on flying, firepower (8X.50 cals), and it's performance as a ground attack fighter.
Just my opinion.
Now for the gentleman who said that the F4U Corsair was the best fighter in the PTO...Wrong. The F6F Hellcat was purpose built to go against the Zero and accounted for more enemy kills than all other fighters combined. The hellcat was rugged as well attesting to the Grumman "Iron Works" ability to produce tough aircraft.
The bentwing bird was beautiful, and I like it very much but as far as which was best...definately the Hellcat.

Ed I like the picture of the 56th P-47 you use on you replies. I have a Hasegawa that I did up in the same colors Fireball UN*K JOHN

I'm a fan of both and over the years have been privileged to work on each. How ever, I had to go in harms way, I would want to go in something that had a radial engine up front. Its amazing the amount of damage one of those things will take and still come home. (I once was on a fire base and a B-26 came back from a fire that was 70 miles out with a hole in the cowl where one of the cylinders came out after it blew off the engine. Oil every where but it still ran). The flight manual on the 51 states that if you lose your coolant, the engine will quit in 15 minutes. My dad had a friend who flew a 51 out of England and spent the last 8 months of the war as a guest of the Luftwaffe. Seems he took a round thru the radiater and headed for the closest friendly territory, Switzerland, which was 20 minutes away. 5 minutes from the border, the engine siezed up and he was walking. It was his second mission.

The pilot was Bob Johnson of the 56th FG. They counted over 20 20MM holes as well. the a/c was carted off as junk when they finished cutting him out of the cockpit. The defense rests :D

I once read an article about the toughness of the Jug. A pilot had to return to England because of engine trouble. On the way back he was jumped by a single Fw 190. He could not outrun or dogfight so he hunkered down in his armored seat and prayed. The Fw 190 emptied everything he had into the Jug. When the pilot realized he was OK he sat back up and waved to the German pilot who probably could not believe his eyes. When he returned to base he had over 200 holes in his airplane and NO oil in the engine. Put me down as a P-47 fan

QUOTE: Originally posted by Aurora-7 QUOTE: Originally posted by styrene I always thought the two aircraft were created for different roles Gip Winecoff Actually, the original role for the P-47 was to be a high-altitude interceptor -something the P-51 was definitely superior at.

Actually, up above 20k or so, the P-47 is faster than the Mustang. The supercharger in the Jug is like a washing machine, so it has the best high altitude performance. Remember, speed=life. In the mid altitudes, the Mustang is faster in level flight, and climbs a bit better, but nothing dives like a P-47. They're surprisingly equal, but above 20k, there's no comaprison.

I would agree that this argument is subjective and nobody is going to win it.
I like both aircraft, although my favorite WWII aircraft would have to be the P-47 followed by the P-38 and the P-51.

Now if I could go back in time to WWII with an F-15E I could really show those ME109's the meaning of air superiority!

Mike

As you can see, I have my biases. I like both but prefer the Thunderbolt. The Allied war effort would not have been as successful without both types in the air.

sorry I thought it was which do we prefer P 47s or P 51s? aswell

Give me a T-Bolt for sheer survivability. The Mustang did a great job as an interceptor and bomber escort, but you had a better chance of getting home in one piece in a Jug.

QUOTE: Originally posted by styrene I always thought the two aircraft were created for different roles Gip Winecoff

Actually, the original role for the P-47 was to be a high-altitude interceptor -something the P-51 was definitely superior at.

I always thought the two aircraft were created for different roles, and if that's the case, then trying to determine the best is apples and oranges. It's like asking, "What's the best, a Suzuki motorcycle or a Hummer?"

Of course the bottom line is: What difference does it make?

Gip Winecoff