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Marseille's 109...Finished(many pics)

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  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: Yokosuka, Japan
Posted by luftwaffle on Saturday, October 30, 2010 8:16 AM

Great looking build!

aka Mike, The Mikester My Website

"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."   -Winston Churchill

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Maine
Posted by Stage_Left on Friday, October 29, 2010 10:25 PM

Very nice work, Fermis. The '109 is one of my favs......some great paint schemes.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: South Central Wisconsin
Posted by Daywalker on Friday, October 29, 2010 8:34 PM

fermis

Or, are all my others just crappy???!!!!Indifferent      Stick out tongue

Um...well... Confused

I wasn't going to say it...

J/K LOL

Frank 

 

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: hamburg michigan
Posted by fermis on Friday, October 29, 2010 11:25 AM

That's a huge compliment Frank, Thank you very much!

Or, are all my others just crappy???!!!!Indifferent      Stick out tongue

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: South Central Wisconsin
Posted by Daywalker on Friday, October 29, 2010 8:29 AM

fermis- Now THAT is how a desert 109 should look, well done!  The overall dusty appearance really gives the feeling of an arid climate.  From where I am sitting, this is the finest work of yours I have seen!

Frank 

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Rothesay, NB Canada
Posted by VanceCrozier on Friday, October 29, 2010 7:27 AM

Left = oncoming traffic. Instead, I deployed the non-slip yellow air brakes...

On the bench: Airfix 1/72 Wildcat; Airfix 1/72 Vampire T11; Airfix 1/72 Fouga Magister

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, October 29, 2010 7:03 AM

VanceCrozier

I could have used a wingman this morning. Driving to work today I got cut off in traffic 3 times. And I mean "come to a screeching stop" cut off. They're all out today!

"Break left!  Break left---you've got a bogie cutting in front!"

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Rothesay, NB Canada
Posted by VanceCrozier on Friday, October 29, 2010 6:58 AM

I could have used a wingman this morning. Driving to work today I got cut off in traffic 3 times. And I mean "come to a screeching stop" cut off. They're all out today!

On the bench: Airfix 1/72 Wildcat; Airfix 1/72 Vampire T11; Airfix 1/72 Fouga Magister

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Frisco, TX
Posted by B17Pilot on Thursday, October 28, 2010 9:53 PM

Manstein's revenge

No, you have a wingman to keep your a$$ from getting shot down...

That too!!

  

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Crawfordsville, Indiana
Posted by Wabashwheels on Thursday, October 28, 2010 7:04 PM

I need a wingman!

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 28, 2010 2:02 PM

B17Pilot

That's why you have a wingman, to verify your kills, if he can't confirm, you get credit for a damaged aircraft. At least that's how the USAAF did it.

No, you have a wingman to keep your a$$ from getting shot down...

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Frisco, TX
Posted by B17Pilot on Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:47 PM

That's why you have a wingman, to verify your kills, if he can't confirm, you get credit for a damaged aircraft. At least that's how the USAAF did it.

  

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, October 28, 2010 1:15 PM

Based on years of viewing gun-camera footage, reviewing logs and reading pilot accounts, I'd say that most anytime a pilot in WW2 got an enemy aircraft in his sights, even if was for a split-second, and pressed the trigger, he had the tendency to put in a claim for a kill, regardless of what he saw afterwards...

Based on my own experience, you can get behind an aircraft as close as 50 meters, fire, split-S and never see the plane again!!!  Did it go down?  Did it shake you?  Dunno...

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Rothesay, NB Canada
Posted by VanceCrozier on Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:09 AM

I suppose nightfighter claims would (probably) be more accurate. One NF slipping in on one bomber, attacking & drifting off again. As opposed to the swirling multi-plane dogfights that some day fighters were involved in.

On the bench: Airfix 1/72 Wildcat; Airfix 1/72 Vampire T11; Airfix 1/72 Fouga Magister

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:37 PM

oddmanrush

Interesting info there Manny. Look like not only were kill counts inflated, but it seems they had some trouble on occasion identifying the aircraft they were actually shooting down; mistaking P-40s, Spitfires and Hurricanes....

You are exactly right...many legitimate kills were claimed for the wrong kind of a/c...during the BOB, the Germans had a tendancy to claim every downing as a Spitfire just because it was more "prestiguous" to down a Spitfire than it was a Hurricane, although many more Hurricanes actually participated in the BOB and were downed...

...by my own research, and opinion, I'd opine that the top German aces' kills are inflated, on average, by at least 50%, in some cases more, some cases less...a certain few pilots are most certainly close to 100% accurate, the most notable, IMO, being Schnaufer's claims of 121 kills as a nightfighter...all of his kills wound up, for the most part, on German soil in the form of a big 4-engined wreck... 

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by oddmanrush on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:18 PM

Interesting info there Manny. Look like not only were kill counts inflated, but it seems they had some trouble on occasion identifying the aircraft they were actually shooting down; mistaking P-40s, Spitfires and Hurricanes....

Jon

My Blog: The Combat Workshop 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Allentown, PA
Posted by BaBill212 on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 4:09 PM

Great job fermis...   the 109 happens to be my fav prop single engine fighter and you have done it justice for sure.

One thing you might want to try on the figures...  give the clothing a little coat of flat finish. This will take away some of the sheen....  BUT still the figs are great, the plane is great..  nice simple setting...  EXCELLENT!

Enjoy the ride!

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 3:31 PM

There have been many debates as to the accuracy of German kill claims (for that matter, all kill claims by all nations), especially since the highest scoring Allied ace had "only" 60 confirmed kills...this palls in comparison to the German aces, of which over 100 claimed more than 100 "kills"...I believe conventional wisdom in almost all circles is that all "kill" claims have a degree of inflation...There are some German pilots, however, whose log books can be (and have been) cross-checked with Allied loss records and match fairly well for the most part...two German aces who I have studied and whose records have been combed over by many historians are Marseille and Schnaufer...

Schnaufer had 121 kills, all at night, and most against four-engined British bombers...when you calculate the number of men involved in his kills (at around 7 per kill), Schnaufer may be responsible for more casualties in air-to-air combat than any other pilot: roughly 850, either killed, wounded or made a PoW...

Marseille's logbook also can be verified, for the most part, against Allied loss records, but not completely--there are some real problems with his claims as well, eg:

15 September 1942
JG27 escorting Stukas intercept the attacking fighters and are awarded 19 Victories. 11 by I Gruppe, 1 by II Gruppe, 7 by III Gruppe
However, the P-40's intercepting this Stuka raid were put up by 239 Wing, 36 Kittyhawks from 250 Sqn , 3 RAAF, 450 RAAF, 112 Sqns . Only SIX Kittyhawks failed to return, one which was claimed to be shot down by friendly AA Fire. (2 losses from 250 Sqn, 2 from 3 Sqn, 1 each from 450 & 112 Sqns)

12 Oct 1941
Allied losses, 2 P-40's were shot down, 1 crashed on landing, 1 crashed inside Allied lines.
4 kills were awarded, 2 to Marseille, 1 to Sinner & Franzikest

30 Oct 1941
Allied losses of 2 P-40's and 1 damaged
4 kills awarded, 3 to Schulz, 1 to Schacht

22 May 1942
1 P-40 shot down, 1 missing and 1 crash landed at base.
5 kills awarded.

1 June 1942
1 P-40 shot down, 1 damaged
3 P-40's claimed, 1 Hurricane claimed despite not being present.


3 September 1942
2 P-40's shot down, 1 crash landed at base.
6 kills awarded, 3 to Marseille & 3 to Stahlschmidt (including a Spitfire, not present)

5 September 1942
2 Spitfires shot down, 1 P-40 shot down and 1 damaged
9 Kills awarded, 4 (All P-40) to Marseille, 2 to Stahlschmidt and 3 to Rodel

15 September 1942
5 P-40 shot down and 1 shot down by own LAA
7 kills for Marseille, 4 to Krainek, 3 to Schroer (incl Spitfire)2 for von Lieres and singles to Homuth, Bornger, Grube & Stuckler.

Then there are some of the stories that still circulate about aces who are charged with false claims.  One of the more famous incidents involved the beloved Galland who made a solo sortie across the channel and reported upon landing that he was putting claims in for 2 Spitfires...imagine his crew-chief's surprise when he discovered that the plane's guns had not even been fired...oops...  

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by oddmanrush on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 2:25 PM

VanceCrozier

Must have been hard, for either side, to be accurate with kills. It's not like you could take the shot, watch for flames, hit the pause button to record the time & location, then continue on your merry way. There had to have been a lot of cases where several pilots thought they downed the same a/c, or like you said, saw smoke, claimed it only to have the other guy get home.

If you read the book Flying Tigers by Daniel Ford you will see that this certainly was the case, on both sides. Though I'm sure the issue was made worse for the AVG by incorporating a bonus for downed fighters if I'm not mistaken.

Jon

My Blog: The Combat Workshop 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Rothesay, NB Canada
Posted by VanceCrozier on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 1:40 PM

Must have been hard, for either side, to be accurate with kills. It's not like you could take the shot, watch for flames, hit the pause button to record the time & location, then continue on your merry way. There had to have been a lot of cases where several pilots thought they downed the same a/c, or like you said, saw smoke, claimed it only to have the other guy get home.

On the bench: Airfix 1/72 Wildcat; Airfix 1/72 Vampire T11; Airfix 1/72 Fouga Magister

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 1:33 PM

True, but he also wound up as a kill-mark on more than one Allied fighter, and towards the end, was probably guilty of over-claiming (albeit not through dishonesty, but arrogance that, if he pulled the trigger, the other guy died) a few times, as fighters he hit mangaed to limp home...

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Rothesay, NB Canada
Posted by VanceCrozier on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 1:26 PM

And few, if any, were "heavies", almost entirely fighter-to-fighter kills.

On the bench: Airfix 1/72 Wildcat; Airfix 1/72 Vampire T11; Airfix 1/72 Fouga Magister

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 1:21 PM

Manstein's revenge

This is the plane that Marseille flew during very early '42...

...he is a real contender for "Greatest Ace of All Time,"  having shot down more a/c on the Western front than any other pilot in WW2...most of the Eastern front experten couldn't cut the mustard when they rotated back to the Western front, and many didn't live to tell about it: Philips, Nowotony, etc...even the ones that did live scored very little after they moved over: Rall, Barkhorn, Graf, etc...

IIRC, he shot down 17 in one day...

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Bucks county, PA
Posted by Bucksco on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 12:44 PM

Nice job! Always one of my favorite "Aces" aircraft. Like the figures too....

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: hamburg michigan
Posted by fermis on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 7:56 AM

 Much thanks everybody!!!ToastToastToast

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 26, 2010 3:20 PM

...hey, I bet he is having his victory markings applied in "non-slip gelb" so that the red on the rudder doesn't slide off during high-speed turns!

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Rothesay, NB Canada
Posted by VanceCrozier on Tuesday, October 26, 2010 2:58 PM

oddmanrush

Two thumbs up! Very nice and it makes me wonder why I've not attempted to build a 109 yet.

Indifferent Don't let Manny hear that kind of talk!!! That being said, I've never built a P-38, but I'm changing that with an upcoming group build.

On the bench: Airfix 1/72 Wildcat; Airfix 1/72 Vampire T11; Airfix 1/72 Fouga Magister

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by oddmanrush on Tuesday, October 26, 2010 2:48 PM

Two thumbs up! Very nice and it makes me wonder why I've not attempted to build a 109 yet.

Jon

My Blog: The Combat Workshop 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Rothesay, NB Canada
Posted by VanceCrozier on Tuesday, October 26, 2010 2:22 PM

If I recall, Marseille had a ridiculously accurate shot as well, usually returning to base with more kills than his mates, and far more ammo left.

On the bench: Airfix 1/72 Wildcat; Airfix 1/72 Vampire T11; Airfix 1/72 Fouga Magister

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