Calling Delta Dagger

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jeff_Herne Here's a story that I hope everyone will relate to. I run the NJ State Aviation Museum. One of the more famous and tragic events in New Jersey's history was the loss of the Hindenburg in May of 1937 at Lakehurst. The original company that insured the Hindenburg, USAIG, is still thriving in NYC, right across the river from us. USAIG contacted us and asked if wanted a large (8ft) model of the Hindenburg they had commissioned for the 50th anniversary of the disaster. We received the model and it's on display in the museum. Last year, we had a Yashiva group visit from Brooklyn. We get a large percentage of visitors from the Orthodox Jewish community. One of the chaperones, a mother, started making a scene, yelling, and tearing me apart because of the swastikas on the stabilizer of the model. Before I had chance to reply, the rabbi interjected and addressed the group. His comments were that the markings on the tail had a significant meaning because of the terrible things (and people) associated with it. Removing the markings because they offend you is not the proper thing to do, especially in a historical context such as this. He closed by saying that if we make everyone remove the symbols of history, however bad it might be, then we are in effect 'sweeping it under the rug', and trying to deny that it ever happened. That is were we are wrong, because eventually, it will be forgotten, and all of the suffering that image caused will have been done in vain. Now, I'm not Jewish, I'm not even religious, but it was very noble words from a wise man. The models we build represent machines, not politics, or people. Historically, we can at look at just about anything and find someone or some cultural group that could take offense to it. Native Americans aren't fond of the US Cavalry. I was born and raised on an Indian reservation. No one wanted to be the cowboys when we played cowboys and Indians...kinda ironic, huh? Please remember something...fighter planes, tanks, bombs, rockets, warships, and guns don't kill people. People kill people. Therein lies the irony. We model weapons of destruction, yet we, as decent humans, should abhor war. As soldiers, we train for war, yet all real soldiers despise war and pray for peace. Sorry, had to rant. Jeff Herne Director, NJ Aviation Hall of Fame and Museum www.njahof.org

BZ Jeff!!

nice post...

Rant away!!

If only more people had the common sense to think that way...


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Here's a story that I hope everyone will relate to.

I run the NJ State Aviation Museum. One of the more famous and tragic events in New Jersey's history was the loss of the Hindenburg in May of 1937 at Lakehurst.

The original company that insured the Hindenburg, USAIG, is still thriving in NYC, right across the river from us. USAIG contacted us and asked if wanted a large (8ft) model of the Hindenburg they had commissioned for the 50th anniversary of the disaster.

We received the model and it's on display in the museum. Last year, we had a Yashiva group visit from Brooklyn. We get a large percentage of visitors from the Orthodox Jewish community. One of the chaperones, a mother, started making a scene, yelling, and tearing me apart because of the swastikas on the stabilizer of the model.

Before I had chance to reply, the rabbi interjected and addressed the group. His comments were that the markings on the tail had a significant meaning because of the terrible things (and people) associated with it. Removing the markings because they offend you is not the proper thing to do, especially in a historical context such as this. He closed by saying that if we make everyone remove the symbols of history, however bad it might be, then we are in effect 'sweeping it under the rug', and trying to deny that it ever happened. That is were we are wrong, because eventually, it will be forgotten, and all of the suffering that image caused will have been done in vain.

Now, I'm not Jewish, I'm not even religious, but it was very noble words from a wise man.

The models we build represent machines, not politics, or people. Historically, we can at look at just about anything and find someone or some cultural group that could take offense to it. Native Americans aren't fond of the US Cavalry. I was born and raised on an Indian reservation. No one wanted to be the cowboys when we played cowboys and Indians...kinda ironic, huh?

Please remember something...fighter planes, tanks, bombs, rockets, warships, and guns don't kill people. People kill people. Therein lies the irony. We model weapons of destruction, yet we, as decent humans, should abhor war. As soldiers, we train for war, yet all real soldiers despise war and pray for peace.

Sorry, had to rant.

Jeff Herne
Director, NJ Aviation Hall of Fame and Museum
www.njahof.org

When you think about it, a symbol really isn't anything more than a shape. Its what meaning that you attach to it (conscienciously or not) that can bring about an emotional response. Different people attach different meanings to symbols and representations. It is unfortunate when you are instructed as to what meaning you attach to an object.

QUOTE: Originally posted by cassibill Shame how people react to something that was once good that was corrupted. The swatzika has a very different meaning before the nazis.

Courtney, you are so right.

As I understand it, the swastika is a Tibetan (or something like that) peace symbol. The difference between the original and Hitlers version is that the legs faced counter-clockwise and not rotated to the 45 degree angle as he changed it to.

Shame how people react to something that was once good that was corrupted. The swatzika has a very different meaning before the nazis.

QUOTE: Originally posted by stoomfluit Now you mention it, did you know that there are many country's where swastika's are illegal, even on our precious models. I don't have a problem with it, if you put them on the tail of your Bf.109 or Fw 190, because the real thing had them too and it's historically correct. But I can imagine that to many people they can bring back terrible memories, so I think we must be a bit careful with what we show here.

I didn't know that until I went to Germany last spring when I went to an air musem in Speyr. They had a Junkers something on display with the original swastika on the tail. I was informed that they could only display it that way because it was the original marking (not even repainted).

Ever notice that Revell/AG kits do not come with swastikas in the decal sheet?

The wolf is ok; as long as he's not "packin". Sheesh, get a grip...

AWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!


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QUOTE: Originally posted by BlackWolf3945 Hell, in this PC world of ours, I'm surprised that nobody has jumped on me for one of the images I currently use...

Yeah, man, that wolf has got to go!

Regards,

QUOTE: Originally posted by stoomfluit Now you mention it, did you know that there are many country's where swastika's are illegal, even on our precious models.

Oh, yes... that's been beat to death here...


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Everyone reacts to things deferently. What bothers someone is very individual. Underwater shot in movies freak me out. I've nearly drowned twice. I is just a bad reminder. A splash of water in my eyes will lock them shut and send me into a panic attack.
Posting a pic of a car the same model and color as some had bad expirience with would be bad too but. You have to draw a line somewhere for sanity's sake.

Remember that this is a World Wide Website. What may be offensive to some may be non-offensive to others due to all the different cultures. Some of us will have Nazi markings, Rising Suns, and Rebel flags on our subjects in the good nature of authenic historical representation. Others may take offense while casually visiting this site. However, this is the web and it must be understood that all sites, if open to all nationalities, races, sexes, and etc. cannot be sanitized to satisfy all.
The best thing to do is have a disclaimer on the home page telling about some of the graphic material we as modelers use to repspresent our subjects. Not only the violent pictures, but also the "adult" natured content that is reflected on noseart.

BTW, I had to remove the confederate flag from my CSS Alabama in order to display it in a school. However, I did not have to put a bra on the girl painted on my B-24. Hows that for PC censorship.
Scott

Now you mention it, did you know that there are many country's where swastika's are illegal, even on our precious models. I don't have a problem with it, if you put them on the tail of your Bf.109 or Fw 190, because the real thing had them too and it's historically correct. But I can imagine that to many people they can bring back terrible memories, so I think we must be a bit careful with what we show here.

I have to say that the guy is kinda weird, and he's probably just a kid. Maybe not, I dunno fersher. And I do agree that the cartoon was not appropriate here.

But I've got no problem with the photo, after all we've got plenty of members who use images of implements of war, death and destruction in their sigs, so don't single him out for that. Some use images that represent the armed forces which defend their nation, which is the case with Dagger. He's from the Phillipines and, kid or not, he has an admiration for the armed forces of his country; and rightly so.

BTW, here's the site where he got the photo from.

Hell, in this PC world of ours, I'm surprised that nobody has jumped on me for one of the images I currently use...


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The oddthing about the cartoon is the fact it is from a very popular YOUTH site. Most kids over the age of 7 have been there once. Adult use it too but mostly kids and teens. It was in it's early phase when I was about ten, so 10 years ago. A lot of the kids I knew had seen everything it. I hadn't been in a while but honestly, It reminded me of some tv shows. We keep it PG here but most kids old enought to run a computer have been exposed to enough that it is more symbolic then anything. Anyone remember Oregon Trail. Shot animals and had your party killed by indians. Most Schools have it. I've played it since I was 5.

I didn't actually see the original post, but I got a good enough desciption from another forum buddy.

deltadagger - You're not the first to make a mistake here in the forum, but please remember that one of the things we would most like to see is this hobby passed on to the next, much younger, and impressionable generation. Let's set the proper examples, eh?

Living here in Denver, Columbine is still fresh in our minds. For that matter, I'm sure that Texans remember well their incident in the sixties.

Hats off to the administrators (Lawrence Hansen, et al)!!!

As far as I'm concerned, you are still welcome here. The most honorable and respectful thing you could do right now though (even unto yourself), is acknowledge the mistake and move forward. (Or a least move forward).

stinger

The one with the guy holding the machine gun. I think it is for the army. I am against guns. I know that this is not the place for that discussion either but we are all entitled to our own opinions. I am sorry if I offend anyone with that one but that is my position on guns and wont apoligize for that. Period.

I didn't have too much trouble with the sig. pic. but I do agree that this is not the place for that kind of a cartoon. At the same time I don't think Delta Dagger should be made to leave the forum. Now that it has been made clear that this is not that kind of a forum he should have no problem following the rules. Forgive and forget I guess is what I'm trying to say, I would just hate to see someone who really wants to converse on this site and get information banned for a mistake. Just my outlook.

The cartoon of the Swat team was a little much but what photo are you refering to Jim . the one in his sig? Of the philapine army?

Come to think of it Delta Dagger. I am not so sure that photo is appropriate either. We need to keep this place clean.

rjkplasticmod, I would not neccesarliy go that far. But this nonsense needs to stop. This is not the place to talk like that and behave like that. BUT i woul not kick him off all together. But that is not up to me.

i have posted my opinion in another thread.

joe

I agree. If the Web administrator can block this guy out, he should.

I am with you guys on this one. It is not in very good taste.

I second this, the forum should not allow this nonsense. It is tasteless.