WW2 missiles

It is too bad that FSM doesn't have provisions for stand alone web pages such as Cybermodeler has.  Just think of all the reference pages we could pop up for newbies and some "oldbies" to use when they want some info. In a static format, it could be much easier to either read and use,,,,,,or ignore if it is more info than what someone wants.

As it is, every time one of us types out a list of resources on another site,,,,,,,,or a large (boring to some) post,,,,,,,it just scrolls away, out of sight and out of mind.

(Cybermodeler's paint pages were my "go to" for my paint color searches after being burned by buying paints according to a couple of other sites)

Rex

TarnShip

There are a few huge honkin' Mil-Specs and TOs to cover that aspect, Stik.

But, I am sort of getting a rep as a "boring old guy" concerning colors,,,,,so, I will just mention them and not quote them.

I will mention that there are some pretty good decal sheets in the three main aircraft scales that have really good painting guides to go with them.

Rex

Yes, I am just stirring the pot... we really need that emoticon here.... Cybermodeler has many of those TOs on their site in the reference section... love 'em!!! great for the little details.

and remember folks, a "gun" is a crew served weapon.... This is my rifle, this is my gun, this is for fighting, this is for fun...

Don Stauffer

A similar thing still bothers me.  The word "jet" now seems to be a synonym for aircraft, even aircraft propelled by propellers!

Similarly, I'm bothered whenever I see any pistol, even a semi-auto, referred to as a "revolver".

Well, I believe in the old saying, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.  So when I was in the military, I used military definitions.  I have long been out of the military, so no longer feel compelled to.  So when watching ships on the Great Lakes, I will frequently call them ore boats, although that drives my ex-Navy friends crazy.  Of course, the Navy still talks about giant submarines as boats.  Oh well, as long as everyone understands what we mean when talking to each other.

A similar thing still bothers me.  The word "jet" now seems to be a synonym for aircraft, even aircraft propelled by propellers!

There are a few huge honkin' Mil-Specs and TOs to cover that aspect, Stik.

But, I am sort of getting a rep as a "boring old guy" concerning colors,,,,,so, I will just mention them and not quote them.

I will mention that there are some pretty good decal sheets in the three main aircraft scales that have really good painting guides to go with them.

Rex

Well this could always devolve into a discussion on their colors and paint schemes...

Another link to an event that happened during World War II with regards to operational guided munitions...

http://rohnasurvivors.org

You said you didn't want to wade through a 50 page pdf...but how about a 250+ page pdf ;)

I didn't figure anything I could add to this discussion, most everybody knows more than I. just thought I'd share this link to a source I used extensively in a research paper I did on precision strike weapons and how they fit into the concept of RMA this past spring. Though it only has a couple pages on WWII guided munitions (had to read actual books on those) if anybody is interested in the further development it's an interesting, though definitely not exhaustive, source.

www.csbaonline.org/.../six-decades-of-guided-munitions-and-battle-networks-progress-and-prospects

Mr Parsch usually doesn't miss things.

But, he doesn't have any listing for the HPAG carried by aircraft such as the Banhsee and Panther, and A-1 Skyraiders.  (HPAG=High Performance Air to Ground rocket)

Follow this link to the golden land of designation systems:

http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/missiles.html

Essentially we are talking about US military nomenclature, not literal definitions. The same folks who describe the M551 Sheridan as an Airborne Armored Reconnisence Vehicle, and not a light tank. In general US military vernacular rockets are unguided rocket projectiles while missiles are rocket or jet powered guided projectiles. And of course a few "glide bomb" types also fall into the AGM/missile category as well.

Don Stauffer

Actually, the term rocket means a type of propulsion.  It can be an adjective as in rocket propelled vehicle.  English has a tendency to make nouns out of other figures of speech, so the word by itself can mean the above phrase.  So in the loosest sense of the word, missile can mean any object traveling through the air, whether propelled by a motive force or merely by its momentum, or by gravity.  Usually  when speaking of a weapon or vehicle, it means unmanned.

AGM-65 stands for Air to Ground Missile (Model 65). AIM-9 stands for Air Intercept Missile (Model 9).

 HVAR stands for High Velocity Aerial Rocket. FFAR stands for Folding-Fin Aerial Rocket . Rocket is a noun here.  All the above are rocket powered.

Actually, the term rocket means a type of propulsion.  It can be an adjective as in rocket propelled vehicle.  English has a tendency to make nouns out of other figures of speech, so the word by itself can mean the above phrase.  So in the loosest sense of the word, missile can mean any object traveling through the air, whether propelled by a motive force or merely by its momentum, or by gravity.  Usually  when speaking of a weapon or vehicle, it means unmanned.

One other thing about English, there is no official organization that rules on correct usage, unlike for French or a few other languages.  So there is no right or wrong meaning of a word.  Just in my lifetime I have seen the common meanings of many words change drastically!  Of course, I have lived for over three quarters of a century, so I have been around for awhile :-)

stikpusher

by definition those are missiles, but they are not guided missiles. They also can be called rocket projectiles. Now by US military nomenclature they are not referred to as missiles even though they fit that description by definition.

Right. I think what we are talking about here and what I meant when I asked the question, is the military definition. One could throw a rock and correctly call that a missile, but I meant in the context of military aircraft.

It seems in that context, a Maverick is a missile, while an HVAR is a rocket.

The United States Navy had an air to surface missile or actually guide bomb.

Meet the BAT:

airandspace.si.edu/.../artifact.cfm

Tiny Tim:

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19660030000

Luftwaffe test aam:

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19710765000

Gargoyle:

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19740642000

About 15 minutes at the Air space museum web site.

Lets just say that History Channel ain't what it used to be... It has its moments, but...

Raymond G

Looks like anything I could add has already been said.  However!  My wife has a Master's in history, and while the History Chanel is good at providing general education and encouraging passion in history, I have seen her and my best friend, who is also has a Master's in history, laugh at the inaccuracies that plague many of their shows.

word.

Me too.

Looks like anything I could add has already been said.  However!  My wife has a Master's in history, and while the History Chanel is good at providing general education and encouraging passion in history, I have seen her and my best friend, who is also has a Master's in history, laugh at the inaccuracies that plague many of their shows.

dmk

the definition of missile has nothing to do with guidance.

 I'm not sure about that. Is a Tiny Tim a missile or a rocket?  How about a Zuni?

 If they aren't missiles, why not? They are both self propelled and carry an explosive warhead.

by definition those are missiles, but they are not guided missiles. They also can be called rocket projectiles. Now by US military nomenclature they are not referred to as missiles even though they fit that description by definition. 

I think the guidance thing is mostly right. There are of course guided Zuni rockets.

Tiny Tim and Zuni are both rockets. As are Genie, HVAR, HPAG and Mighty Mouse. Non of these are guided, they all depend on the pilot for aiming the aircraft and then firing them in the direction he wants them to go.

the definition of missile has nothing to do with guidance.

RobGroot4

Initially, rockets were unguided (thikbottle rockets, point in the general direction and saturate), whereas missiles were guided.  

In general, missiles are usually more complex, rockets less so.  I believe the big differentiation now is that missiles are capable of changing directions to chase a target, whereas rockets are not.

Groot

the definition of missile has nothing to do with guidance.

Initially, rockets were unguided (thikbottle rockets, point in the general direction and saturate), whereas missiles were guided.  

In general, missiles are usually more complex, rockets less so.  I believe the big differentiation now is that missiles are capable of changing directions to chase a target, whereas rockets are not.

Groot

Don Stauffer

There were and are some aircraft launched missiles that are/were propelled with jet engines.  

I guess missile was the better term because it does exclude propulsion power from the equation.

There were and are some aircraft launched missiles that are/were propelled with jet engines.  And the Bomarc was a surface to air missile that was jet powered.  I cannot recall any air to air missiles that were jet, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.  Also I think one could include guided bombs and guided glide weapons in the term "missile."

Well lets think of the basic definition of a missile- it is a projectile. It does not have to have a power source or guidance once launched... By definition. Now once you start going into ordnance types you start to get into various sub categories- guided glide weapons such as the Walleye, Paveway, & HoBos, plain old gravity dumb bombs, which by the basic definition of missile can be considered as such, powered weapons such as unguided air launched rockets of assorted types for both sir to air and air to ground use, and guided powered weapons be they command guided such as the Bullpup, Radar guided like Harpoon & Exocet, image guided ( either Imaging IR or TV) like the Maverick, or Laser Guided. There have even been millimeter wavelength seekers, a type of radar, and laser guidance seekers added to artillery rounds and their sub munitions. As well as rocket assisted projectiles to increase their range. We have come a long way from the missiles in the age of  the ancients whose missiles were launched by slings, bows, or catapults.

You pretty much have it, Dave.

There are exceptions that blur the lines a bit,,,,,,such as Walleye,,,,an AGM, Air to Ground Missile, that doesn't have a motor.  There were also guided rockets, I don't recall the designations, though. They were guided the same way as guided artillery shells, if I recall correctly, and may have been experimental only.

Rex