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P-51D Big Beautiful Doll decal questions

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  • Member since
    September 2020
P-51D Big Beautiful Doll decal questions
Posted by fearlessfarless on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 8:58 AM

Good morning!

I'm in need of some P-51 wisdom. Hopefully y'all will know something that I don't...

Im working on the Eduard 1/48 P-51 Mustang

I have not seen instructions to fill this hole for a particular variant. However notice the difference in the paint and decal instructions from one aircraft to the next:

Any insight would be great!

Next check out the decal colors. I have always understood that Landers' aircraft code had a red outline, and the wingtips had the black and white checkerboards.

I knew he had different variantions of the paint scheme, but I am not aware of a yellow outline. Again, maybe I've been reading all the wrong stuff. But this just looks strange.

These are definitely not red...

Perhaps this is the supposed yellow outline version...


and surprise, surprise, no checkerboard decals, or stencils, or instructions for the wing tips. 

Right now I'm more confused than a chameleon in a bag of Skittles. Please help!!!

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 11:28 AM

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Portland, Or.
Posted by B299X on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 10:45 PM

Good evening,

That hole you reference is a port for discharging a flare pistol. If you look closely at the picture of Col. Landers straddling his plane you'll notice a patch of some sort just above his left knee that covers that port.

 

 

I don't know how the yellow trim on the squadron letters was arrived at. I looked very closely at the image with the yellow block on the canopy rail and couldn't see any yellow surround on the squadron codes.

It seems Eduard decided to do the markings early in the aircrafts service life. As the war progressed, more red elements were added along with checkered wing tips. My understanding is that checkered wing tips were not "Command approved" so they mabye a post war addition. I have seen an image of this aircraft with 3 rows of checks on the wingtips.

 

As far as the differences in markings and painting, I feel that it all comes down to research. For example, the 4th FG P-51D you displayed "Ridge Runner III" should have a red identifcation light on the fuselage aft of stainless steel exhaust panels and just above the data block. This modification seems to be confined to the 4th as I haven't noticed it with other P-51 units.

 

HTH

Tony H. 

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Between LA and OC, SoCal
Posted by oortiz10 on Thursday, February 17, 2022 12:00 AM

Hey ff,

According to "Battle Colors, Insignia and Aircraft Markings of the Eighth Air Force in WWII: Volume II (VIII) Fighter Command," the 78th FG squadron markings were black with no outline, but the 82nd and 83rd FSs eventually outlined their codes in red, not yellow. There is no mention of yellow.

Apparently, the wingtip checkers were the CO of the 78th's idea. There were variations applied to different airframes at different times. I have seen pictures of 78th FG Mustangs with no checks, one "column" of checks, and 3 "columns" of checks. 

Sorry I can't help with the wingtips but hopefully the info about the squadron code outline helped.

Good luck,

-O

-It's Omar, but they call me "O".

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by fearlessfarless on Thursday, February 17, 2022 8:18 AM

Thanks, y'all are the best!

I agree that research is essential. Having some references, the internet, AND a subject that's one of the most famous Mustangs in WW2, led me to foolishly believe this thing couldn't possibly get complicated. Hahaha.

I'm going to dispense with the wingtip checkerboards for the time being considering this is supposed to be the early paint scheme.

I remediated the flare port yesterday. Based on how cluttered the side of the plane is, there just isn't room for it...

As for the yellow, creating some masks and painting the lettering black seems to be the best option. 

Thanks again! 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Between LA and OC, SoCal
Posted by oortiz10 on Thursday, February 17, 2022 9:24 AM

Hey fearless, there's something else I dug up on the 78th. Some early 78th Mustangs did not have the red outline on the nose checkers. The piping was added early into the Mustang's life with the 78th to provide contrast between the white checkers and the natural metal of the airframe. Also, the red piping along the anti-glare panel and painted canopy frames didn't appear until late in the war. The only reason I'm mentioning this is because you said you were going to model an early version of BBD, although I've never seen a photo of BBD without the piping on the nose checks. 

Hope this helps. Good luck, and I'm looking forward to seeing your build of what is one of my favorite Mustang schemes. (If I can be so self indulgent...)

Cheers,

-O

-It's Omar, but they call me "O".

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Bethlehem PA
Posted by the Baron on Thursday, February 17, 2022 10:57 AM

I have the Fujimi 1/48 P-51D kit, and they chose to use a red surround for the squadron code, and for the script, "Big Beautiful Doll".  They didn't include decals for the nose checkers, nor even indicated them in the instructions.

Not saying any of that is definitive, of course, just describing their choice.

The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by fearlessfarless on Sunday, February 20, 2022 7:35 PM

Thanks for all the input!

  • Member since
    August 2021
Posted by goldhammer88 on Sunday, February 20, 2022 9:59 PM

Pull up SOFREP.com, BBD story.  Couple of pics, one showing three rows of checkers on the nose, and descriptions of various airframe numbers, and the paint schemes, along with dates.

Don't know how accurate it is though.

Also gives the numbers of the tribute birds and their fate.

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by fearlessfarless on Wednesday, February 23, 2022 5:34 PM

So it was brought to my attention that Lifelike Decals also makes a version of decals for "Big Beautiful Doll" with yellow outlines. The decal sheet says: "Close examination of the photo of ref. 11 shows that WZ is outlined in yellow, the same color as that of the name plate on canopy."

Reference 11: Fighting Colors - The Creation of Military Aircraft Nose Art (Cary Velasco, Turner Publishing, 2004)

Does anyone have a copy of that book, and if so, would you mind taking a peak if there is a pic with yellow outlines? 

Thanks in advance!

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by fearlessfarless on Monday, February 28, 2022 1:26 AM

Good morning,

I'm still hoping if someone has the book,

Fighting Colors - The Creation of Military Aircraft Nose Art (Cary Velasco, Turner Publishing, 2004) 

they would be willing to take a quick look to see if this yellow outline on the squadron code is a real thing or not. I can't justify buying a book right now for just one pic. 

Thanks in advance!

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Between LA and OC, SoCal
Posted by oortiz10 on Monday, February 28, 2022 9:38 AM

fearless,

As it turns out, I have a subscription to Scribd, and an e-copy of that book is available on that site. I took a look for you, and the only photo of BBD is the same photo you had posted of Landers exiting (entering?) the cockpit with the two chiefs on either side. I downloaded copies of that photo from your post, from the book, and the highest resolution copy I could find on the web. I played with all three in some photo editing software, and I wasn't able to distinguish a yellow outline around the squadron code markings. I could definitely see the yellow block on the canopy frame, but I could not make out any other yellow markings.

I was able to find a copy of the original war-time slide where the photo in question was taken from. (You can see it here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dougsheley/4313620987/sizes/l/) In my opinion, it's pretty clear from the slide that the squadron markings are not outlined in yellow. Also, there are some very informative notes posted by a viewer that might be useful.

I hope this is all helpful. I plan on building a BBD one day, and all this info will assuredly help me with mine. 

Good luck!

-O

-It's Omar, but they call me "O".

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by fearlessfarless on Monday, February 28, 2022 10:57 AM

oortiz10

fearless,

As it turns out, I have a subscription to Scribd, and an e-copy of that book is available on that site. I took a look for you, and the only photo of BBD is the same photo you had posted of Landers exiting (entering?) the cockpit with the two chiefs on either side. I downloaded copies of that photo from your post, from the book, and the highest resolution copy I could find on the web. I played with all three in some photo editing software, and I wasn't able to distinguish a yellow outline around the squadron code markings. I could definitely see the yellow block on the canopy frame, but I could not make out any other yellow markings.

I was able to find a copy of the original war-time slide where the photo in question was taken from. (You can see it here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dougsheley/4313620987/sizes/l/) In my opinion, it's pretty clear from the slide that the squadron markings are not outlined in yellow. Also, there are some very informatiive notes posted by a viewer that might be useful.

I hope this is all helpful. I plan on building a BBD one day, and all this info will assuredly help me with mine. 

Good luck!

-O

 



THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

You sir, are a modeling god and a good dude. Thank you!

  • Member since
    November 2004
  • From: Portland, Or.
Posted by B299X on Monday, February 28, 2022 6:21 PM

One additional thought .. could the yellow outline be yellow zinc chromate primer? As a base for the red paint soon to follow. If I recall, bare aluminum alclad, which the P-51's fuselages were, didn't accept paint well without a primer beforehand. 

Just speculatiion on my part. 

Tony H.

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by fearlessfarless on Monday, February 28, 2022 7:13 PM

B299X

One additional thought .. could the yellow outline be yellow zinc chromate primer? As a base for the red paint soon to follow. If I recall, bare aluminum alclad, which the P-51's fuselages were, didn't accept paint well without a primer beforehand. 

Just speculatiion on my part. 

Tony H.

 

That could be. I can't imagine modeling it that way though, simply because I wonder how long would they have realistically left the yellow chromate before adding the red outline?

  • Member since
    March 2022
Posted by d.s.webb on Monday, March 14, 2022 6:16 PM

I have a hard copy of the book, and I just looked. The yellow "box" on the canopy frame looks almost exactly like the NMF in the photo in my copy. If I look VERY closely at the NZ code on the side, I can see a VERY faint outline of a different color around the letters. It is very subtle. Most easily seen on the N and the top of the Z. So, perhaps the yellow outline was there. 

Just thought I'd let you know what I see when I look at the copy reproduced in my book. Perhaps the yellow/NMF was so close on the black and white film it is really difficult to make it out. 

Just my 2 cents...

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by fearlessfarless on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 9:02 AM

Thank you for taking a look. I really appreciate it! I never imagined such a well known aircraft would cause so much divergence of thought on a few decals.

I have already painted the letters black instead of using the decals with the yellow outline. I hope I didn't mess up...

Thanks again!

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by fearlessfarless on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 9:21 AM

  • Member since
    May 2006
  • From: Chapin, South Carolina
Posted by Shipwreck on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 7:52 AM

Well, Fearlessfarless, that is a beautiul Beautiful Doll! Thanks for sharing.

On the Bench:

Revell 1/48 SR-71 Blackbird

Revell 1/96 USS Constitution - rigging

Trumpeter 1/350 USS Hornet CV-8

Revell 1/48 B-1B Lancer Prep & Reasearch

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by fearlessfarless on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 9:14 AM

Shipwreck

Well, Fearlessfarless, that is a beautiul Beautiful Doll! Thanks for sharing.

 

Thank you!

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Between LA and OC, SoCal
Posted by oortiz10 on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 9:29 AM

Nice! Hope my BBD turns out looking this good. Well done!

-O

-It's Omar, but they call me "O".

  • Member since
    September 2020
Posted by fearlessfarless on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 9:31 AM

oortiz10

Nice! Hope my BBD turns out looking this good. Well done!

-O

 

 Thanks!

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