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How to start/stop jet turbine engine

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  • Member since
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How to start/stop jet turbine engine
Posted by Maxwell on Wednesday, April 11, 2007 11:32 PM

For a plane like the Boeing 747, do they ever shut off the engine?

Let's say the plane flies from Tokyo to San Francisco. But once it gets to San Francisco, often times it'll soon fly to a different destination, say, Washington DC. So does it ever get a rest? Or is that how the life of a jet airliner goes...constantly in work?

When we first board a flight, we can already hear the whine of the engine even though the airplane won't take off for another 30 min or even hours. Doesn't this waste fuel?

How do they start a jet engine? For cars, we plug in a key and turn it to start the engine. How do they do that for a 747? And shutting the engine off?

Thanks

  • Member since
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  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:34 AM

I am sure someone else can help with the start-up and shut-down procedures, but in answer to another part of your question, the 747 (and many other aircraft) has a small engine in the tail section which forms part of the APU (Auxilliary Power Unit) which generates electrical power for running the aircraft's electrical systems while it's on the ground and the main engines aren't running. This does use a small amount of fuel. The whine you can hear when you board (and the engines aren't running) is a combination of the running APU and the aircraft's air-conditioning unit.

Here's a pic of the APU exhaust in a 747: http://www.billzilla.org/747apuext.jpg

and a pic of the APU inlet doors: http://www.billzilla.org/747tail.jpg

  • Member since
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  • From: Washington State
Posted by leemitcheltree on Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:41 AM

Maxwell,
Yes, the high-bypass turbofans like the Rolls-Royce RB211 that are bolted to many 747's are shut down (normally) as soon as the aircraft is positioned at the aerobridge/boarding gate upon arrival.
Having these engines operating while the aircraft is at the gate would be unbelievably hazardous to everyone who services the aircraft....besides, fuel is expensive.
The APU (Aux power unit) on a 747 is normally operating while the aircraft is being serviced between flights - that's what you hear when you're onboard without the engines operating.  It powers the aircraft systems, aircon, and avionics.  It's located in the very rear of the fuselage, and the exhaust sits beneath the rudder.

Cheers, LeeTree
Remember, Safety Fast!!!

  • Member since
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  • From: TAMPA,FL
Posted by CHRH53D on Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:53 AM

Maxwell, this is a VERY basic engine start and stop operation from my type helicopter, the scenerio though can kindof be overlapped for numerous other aircraft.  

APP=Auxillary Power Plant; AGB=Accessory Gearbox

-complete pre-engine-start checklist(fuel control levers-open; ignitors-continous;area-clear)     -pushin respective engine start switch and hold   [on my type helo the APP drove the AGB which had mounted onto it two large generators and three hydraulic pumps-the winch/engine start pump supplied hyd power to spin the engine up] watching engine rpm increase. Once the engine started to move it's components (fuel pump and fuel boost pump, lube pump)turn as well. As the engine is increasing in rpm it's drawing in air,compressing the air and forcing that compressed air into the combustion chamber. At 20% eng rpm move the engine speed control lever forward to the start position (which only now allows pressurized fuel into the combustion chamber). You already had compressed air flowing thru as well as the ignitors(think spark plugs) popping now adding atomized sprayed fuel and you (hopefully) have a continous controlled explosion. If your cockpit has old dial indicating type guages you don't see the ignition but for a moment then the temp starts to climb as well will the eng speed increase. You don't run the engine up to 100% yet, you need to monitor the temp, rpm, and fuel flow to ensure that it is functioning properly.   ...that is a very basic start

a basic shutdown:  When all is said and done pull (move) the engine speed control lever back to the mininum governing position, monitoring temp, rpm, and fuel flow as per engine specs. When the engine meets/stabilizes at specific parameters pull(move) the engine speed control lever fully back to the 'off' position which closes off the fuel to that engine. The engine should now shutdown due to induced fuel starvation.

hope that helped,Brian  

  • Member since
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  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Thursday, April 12, 2007 7:25 AM

Aircraft jet engine start procedures.

Multi engine aircraft start # 3 engine first followed by # 4, # 1, and then # 2.  Twin engine aircraft start # 2, then # 1 engine.  Some type of power is needed to turn the engine starter.  This can be the aircraft APU or a ground APU.  The engine master switch is turned on for the engine being started.  That allows fuel to be sent to the engine, when the throttle is advanced.  Air is sent to the starter, from the APU, which turns the starter.  The starter is located on the EDGB.  In this case, the engine isn't driving the gear box, it is the gear box that is causing the engine to rotate.  At an indication of engine RPM, the throttle is advanced from cut off to idle.  This allows fuel to be sent to the combustion chamber.  At the same time the ignition button is depressed (Located on each throttle), causing the two igniters to fire (located in the 10 and 2 o'clock combustion cans, inside the combustion chamber), until ignition occures.  The ignition button is released as soon as ignition occures, indicated by a rapid increase in EGT, fuel flow and EPR.  At around 35 to 40% RPM, air to the starter is cut off.  The starter has a centrifugal shaft which will then disengage from the EDGB.  The engine will continue to spool up until idle RPM is reached.  Flames or fire in the combustion section will keep the engine running.  Igniters are not needed after engine start to keep the engine running.  The same procedure is used for each engine being started.

Engine shut down is done by lifting the throttle detent lever, bringing the throttle from idle to cut off.  This stops fuel from going to the engine.  As soon as the engine is confirmed as shutting down, then the engine master switch is turned off.  The EGT is monitored to make sure combustion has stopped.  That would be indicated by a decrease in EGT.  If the EGT increases or there is smoke coming from the front or rear of the engine, than air is sent to the starter rotating the engine blowing out the fire in the combustion chamber.  

Engine start and shutdown requires monitoring several instruments very closely.  The EGT, fuel flow, oil pressure, hydraulic pressure, RPM, and EPR must be closely watched for any sign of problems.  The man on the ground is also looking at specific items to make sure nothing is wrong, such as fuel, oil, hydraulic leaks, fire or smoke and other things. 

Berny

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  • Member since
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  • From: San Francisco, CA
Posted by telsono on Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:42 PM

Each airport also has rules as to where aircraft engines can be on or off. I have worked at San Francisco International for a long time. There jet aircraft are not allowed to taxi up to the gates on their own power. This is for several reasons, FOD, noise reduction, etc. but primarily safety. I have witnessed 3 times when a tug was late and the pilot decided to park the 747 himself with dire results, but luckily only minor damage to the aircraft and the passenger bridge and no injuries to the crew, passengers or ground staff. In one case the gate agent lifted the gate as high as he could, but the aircraft still had damage, but minor sheet metal damage unlike the wing spar and other collateral damage it would have occured otherwise. Minor sheet metal damage still can range in the tens of thousand of dollars to an aircraft. In all cases, the 747 was stopped by the collision with the gate as the pilot didn't have the proper visibility to see actually where they were.

That APU in the tail of the 747 is very powerful and could by itself supply the poser for a small city.

Mike T.

Beware the hobby that eats.  - Ben Franklin

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Posted by roadkill_275 on Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:46 PM
Don't know about starting one, but stopping one is easy. Throw a wrench in the intakeEvil [}:)]
Kevin M. Bodkins "Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup" American By Birth, Southern By the Grace of God! www.milavia.com Christian Modelers For McCain
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Posted by Jeebus on Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:41 PM
 roadkill_275 wrote:
Don't know about starting one, but stopping one is easy. Throw a wrench in the intakeEvil [}:)]
Yep, works everytimeSign - With Stupid [#wstupid]
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Posted by jeaton01 on Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:50 PM

 Jeebus wrote:
 roadkill_275 wrote:
Don't know about starting one, but stopping one is easy. Throw a wrench in the intakeEvil [}:)]
Yep, works everytimeSign - With Stupid [#wstupid]

That's why I always shut down the left (door) engine down on a Citation as soon as I was on the rollout.  We all knew the story about the passenger's keys going through the engine.

John

To see build logs for my models:  http://goldeneramodel.com/mymodels/mymodels.html

 

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  • From: USA
Posted by 72cuda on Friday, April 13, 2007 7:59 AM

Maxwell;

the answer to your question about the engines is; they are shut down when they are at the concourse at the airport, what you are hearing is the APU running, that is the Auxsillary Power Unit (which is a small jet engine) that is used to power the electrical systems and environmental (heat & air conditioning) systems when the plane is loading & unloading passangers, also to start the engines and it's also used when the maintenance crews are working on the plane when it's not in service like towing it, troubleshooting problems or when they are getting it ready to be place back in service.

the Turbine engines are started by Bleed Air from the APU or a Ground Power Unit, but on Corperate Airplanes they have a Starter/Generator that starts the engines like those on a car but after the engine is started then the motor turns into a generator to power the electrical systems on the plane, then when you want to shut the engine down or turn it off then the engine is starved of fuel (the pilot turns off the fuel flow) because unlike a car the turbine engine has no ignition to run the engine the turbinr engine uses pressure to run on

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Posted by TMN1 on Friday, April 13, 2007 10:43 AM

Let me see, in my time i have worked on As332 Super Puma and As362 Dauphin helicopters, i worked on Boeing 737-500 and -700, Fokker 50, Challenger 604, CRJ 200 and i am currently working F-16 A and B models (Block 10 and 15) so i have started, and stoped, my share of jet engines .

 

Some of the descriptions here seems to be very type specific. On the Boeing we didn't have any rule about what engine to start first. When we were doing pushbacks the pilot just called out which engine he would start first.

If an airplane is just doing a turn around at an airport it will most of the time have the APU running, which is what you have heard, as others have said, its not a good idea to have a main running while people are servicing the plane.

 

Planes are very different in their starting procedures. Some helicopters like those i have worked on have electrical starter motors, and once the engine is started, the starter becomes a generator ... smart right !

The larger planes usually have an airdriven starter motor attached to the ADG (Accessory Drive Gearbox - which as you might have noticed have many names) this is suplied with air from the APU.

Others like the F-16 have such a big engine that it would require the airdriven starter engine and APU combo to start them, but there is not enough room in fuselage to house an APU.

So the F-16 stores some hydrullic pressure in 2 cylinders in the engine compartment, when the pilot activates the starter switch this pressure is diverted through a valve to a small hydrullic motor which spins a small turbine engine called a Jet Fuel Starter, this small turbine engine then spins the main engine and starts it ... a 3 stage rocket so to speak. 

 

To stop it again !! well the short version ... cut the fuel. 

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Posted by qmiester on Friday, April 13, 2007 11:05 AM

 roadkill_275 wrote:
Don't know about starting one, but stopping one is easy. Throw a wrench in the intakeEvil [}:)]

You don't need a wrench.  When I was going to A&P school they showed us a training film on what FOD would do.  A J-34 was installed in a test stand with 1/4" bolt suspended on a string about 10 ft in front of it.  Engine was started and then runnup to takeoff power at which point the string holding the nut was cut.  In real time, the engine just exploded.  When pic was slowed down, you could follow the progress of the nut thru the engine by watching the damage it left behind it.  I'd sure like to find a copy of that film cause it was very impressive. 

Quincy
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Posted by TMN1 on Friday, April 13, 2007 12:07 PM
 qmiester wrote:

 roadkill_275 wrote:
Don't know about starting one, but stopping one is easy. Throw a wrench in the intakeEvil [}:)]

You don't need a wrench.  When I was going to A&P school they showed us a training film on what FOD would do.  A J-34 was installed in a test stand with 1/4" bolt suspended on a string about 10 ft in front of it.  Engine was started and then runnup to takeoff power at which point the string holding the nut was cut.  In real time, the engine just exploded.  When pic was slowed down, you could follow the progress of the nut thru the engine by watching the damage it left behind it.  I'd sure like to find a copy of that film cause it was very impressive. 

 

There is a big difference between straight jets - such as the J-34 - and the mordern turbo fans on airliners. Anything going through the airintake on a straight will have to pass throught the core engine and will do a lot damage. On a turbo fan the centrifugal force imparted on the object by the fan blades would throw it towards the engine cassing and it will pass through the fan duct and out the exhaust and do little or no damage on the core engine, it will ofcourse damage the fan blades. When a new type of turbo fan engine is designed it tested by blowing of an entire fan blade while the engine is running and the engine has to keep running for atleast 15 minutes.

 

I have seen CFM 56 engines hit by birds, and i mean big seaguls not a little blackbird, and metal objects and the fan blades have taken damage but there was no damage to the core engine and the engine kept running and the aircraft was able to land safely 

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Posted by MaxPower on Friday, April 13, 2007 7:34 PM
 berny13 wrote:

Aircraft jet engine start procedures.

causing the two igniters to fire (located in the 10 and 2 o'clock combustion cans, inside the combustion chamber), until ignition occures. 

On the RB211 the HE igniters or located at about 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions. (on burners #8 and #12.). It has an annular combustor. (no cans)  Smile [:)]
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  • From: Greencastle, IN
Posted by eizzle on Friday, April 13, 2007 11:38 PM

Berny, what about firing a cap or shell to start the Phantom (not sure if it was Phantoms only, but I know they used them on it) I saw a picture of that, and you see a bit of smoke, then the plane is gone! Looks impressive, I dont want to know what it would do to a guys lungs!

So what was that cap and why did it smoke like that?

Colin

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Posted by yardbird78 on Saturday, April 14, 2007 12:48 AM

Followed by the maintenance supervisor throwing the wrench thrower in to the same engine.

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Posted by Phil_H on Saturday, April 14, 2007 1:13 AM
 eizzle wrote:

Berny, what about firing a cap or shell to start the Phantom (not sure if it was Phantoms only, but I know they used them on it) I saw a picture of that, and you see a bit of smoke, then the plane is gone! Looks impressive, I dont want to know what it would do to a guys lungs!

So what was that cap and why did it smoke like that?

I was sure I remembered a story about that - check this out: /forums/626145/ShowPost.aspx

  • Member since
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  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Monday, April 16, 2007 11:31 AM
 MaxPower wrote:
 berny13 wrote:

Aircraft jet engine start procedures.

causing the two igniters to fire (located in the 10 and 2 o'clock combustion cans, inside the combustion chamber), until ignition occures. 

On the RB211 the HE igniters or located at about 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions. (on burners #8 and #12.). It has an annular combustor. (no cans)  Smile [:)]

The J-75 and J-79 engines use can annular combustion chambers.  The igniters are located in the 4 and 8 o'clock position cans, not in the 2 and 10 as I posted.  Sorry for the mistake.  The J-57 was also can annular and the igniters are located in the 2 and 10 o'clock cans.  Any one igniter in any of the engines would be enough to light off the fuel for an engine start.  

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Panama City, Florida, Hurricane Alley
Posted by berny13 on Monday, April 16, 2007 11:43 AM
 eizzle wrote:

Berny, what about firing a cap or shell to start the Phantom (not sure if it was Phantoms only, but I know they used them on it) I saw a picture of that, and you see a bit of smoke, then the plane is gone! Looks impressive, I dont want to know what it would do to a guys lungs!

So what was that cap and why did it smoke like that?

The USAF used a lot of start carts to start many aircraft.  The F-4, F-100, F-105, and B-57 just to name a few.  They are not needed now because most aircraft have some type of self contained starter system.  The F-15 use their JFS to start the engines.  The sound is a strange howling. 

In the post above, it gives a good explanation of how the start carts operate.  As for the smoke, we tried to be up wind so the smoke wouldn't get to us.  At times it did, and you could taste and smell the burned powder for a long time after.   

Berny

 Phormer Phantom Phixer

On the bench

TF-102A Delta Dagger, 32nd FIS, 54-1370, 1/48 scale. Monogram Pro Modeler with C&H conversion.  

Revell F-4E Phantom II 33rd TFW, 58th TFS, 69-260, 1/32 scale. 

Tamiya F-4D Phantom II, 13th TFS, 66-8711, 1/32 scale.  F-4 Phantom Group Build. 

 

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Posted by 72cuda on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 3:02 PM

berny13;

Can't forget the F-16's, F/A-18's & F-22's with the JFS and even the F-20 had one, on the Fleagle the JFS is manually linked unlike the Lawn Dart is Electrically linked but the others your guess is as good as mine but I'm pretty sure the F-22's is more like the Lawn Darts JFS

84 of 795 1/72 Aircraft Competed for Lackland's Airman Heritage Museum

Was a Hawg Jet Fixer, now I'm a FRED Fixer   

 'Cuda

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Posted by oscardeuce on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:47 AM
Jets are easy, just turn them on hit a button, a little polite "poof", and off you go.

Real men start piston engines. Big burly V and round engines. Engines with 12-28 cylinders.To start these beasts, you talk to them, tell them how much they want to start. Walk the prop through to clear the cylinders. Prime them, caress them, energize the starter, get the engine turning, turn on the magnetos. Pray it starts. Add mixture. The engine starts to cough, sputter, spew forth great clouds of smoke. It is a man's engine. Its not quite running so you start to swear at it. Screaming and yelling to get the &*^&(*^(&*^ thing to start. More smoke, more loud bangs, more swearing. With one final cough the engine finally decides it likes you and will grace you with all cylinders running at the appointed time. She goes from a coughing smoke belching beast to a purring cat ready to strike. You stop cursing, and again express your love for the engine, knowing you will have to do it over the next time you go to start her.

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Posted by the Postman on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 9:07 AM
 TMN1 wrote:
 qmiester wrote:

 roadkill_275 wrote:
Don't know about starting one, but stopping one is easy. Throw a wrench in the intakeEvil [}:)]

You don't need a wrench.  When I was going to A&P school they showed us a training film on what FOD would do.  A J-34 was installed in a test stand with 1/4" bolt suspended on a string about 10 ft in front of it.  Engine was started and then runnup to takeoff power at which point the string holding the nut was cut.  In real time, the engine just exploded.  When pic was slowed down, you could follow the progress of the nut thru the engine by watching the damage it left behind it.  I'd sure like to find a copy of that film cause it was very impressive. 

 

There is a big difference between straight jets - such as the J-34 - and the mordern turbo fans on airliners. Anything going through the airintake on a straight will have to pass throught the core engine and will do a lot damage. On a turbo fan the centrifugal force imparted on the object by the fan blades would throw it towards the engine cassing and it will pass through the fan duct and out the exhaust and do little or no damage on the core engine, it will ofcourse damage the fan blades. When a new type of turbo fan engine is designed it tested by blowing of an entire fan blade while the engine is running and the engine has to keep running for atleast 15 minutes.

 

I have seen CFM 56 engines hit by birds, and i mean big seaguls not a little blackbird, and metal objects and the fan blades have taken damage but there was no damage to the core engine and the engine kept running and the aircraft was able to land safely 

I tend to agree with TMN1...we have a GE aircraft engine R&D plant here in Research Triangle Park.  I know for a fact that those boys have a "turkey cannon" that they use to shoot frozen turkeys into/thru jet engines.

-Postman

Essayons. Esse Quam Videri.
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Posted by PDXMike on Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:37 AM

I know that the "normal", not the later big wing B-57 used a starter cartridge.  Looked kind of like an oil filter and mounted in the front of the engine in that streamlined housed.  Pretty much hit the switch, it burned providing the pressure to start the engine rotating.  The mechs said you had to clean where starter cartridge mounted, where the hot burning gases went on into the engine, if not after a few starts the crud would build up and the little bullet fairing and the starter would blow off the engine, not a good thing.  Clouds of black smoke coming out of the side of the engine on a normal start.  Really impressive.  The engines were old Buick engines from F-84s but I don't know what they did to them to put them on the B-57.  So I don't kow if you could start anything else that way, I would guess you could.  We used to have an old air start unit at Cal Poly, seemed to have two or more V-8s for power, pretty impressive when they got them going and all reved up.  Loud in the way that a bunch of teenagers loved!

I've got a little jet and turbo prop time.  Pretty much each basic engine type starts the way you are told to start it, PT-6, PW-118 and so on, each engine family.  All the turbo props I have flown have used starter generators.  Flip the switch to start and it drives the the compressor section and all that.  Most of them also start the ignitors, you hear a snapping noise most the time.  When you get the right rpm (ususally in %) you add fuel, can be a cut off lever, a low pressure fuel shut off, a condition lever or some other name.  If all goes well the fuel lights off, you get rapid rise in the engine temp (egt most common) at the right rpm the starter becomes a generator.  The ignitors stop snapping and all is right in your world.  Check temps and pressures. Some you have to flip a switch to reset/select generator.  If the starter does not drop off line (quit being starter) you have a problem.  Not good.  Go into checklists and if you can't get it out of being a starter the aircraft I have flown tell you to shut the engine down, don't go flying and call the mechs.  This wasn't me, had  friend ignore the starter engaged light one time and at the next airport they found the starter on the bottom of the engine cowling...  I would have thought he might have noted either a hydraulic pump or a generator off line??  What was his FO doing?  Sleeping?  ONLY ONE person at a time should sleep in a two person cockpit!  We had the time to walk over and see that starter and some pissed off mechs. 

Stopping the engine you usually use the same lever to starve the engine of fuel.  I have had that not work and have to pull the firewall shut off valve also called the e-handle on some and that should stop air, fuel, and hydraulics at the firewall.  At idle it takes a while before it does shut down.  Got to burn all the fuel in the lines ahead of the firewall.  You need some power to start, some smaller aircraft you can use the battery, on larger ones the battery doesn't have enough power.  A couple of aircraft I flew you had at best two APU start attempts without external or ground power.  The APU is a small jet engine that you can get bleed air for air conditioning and electrical power, in these type aircraft, in the bigger aircraft used for your powerplant starting, airconditioning, and by electrically driven hydraulic pumps hydraulic pressure.  I flew one four engine airplane that had three generators, the APU, the (if I remember right) and the outboard engines, the inboards had the hydraulic pumps.  At the gate you want to use ground power, either the jetway or a ground power trailer, you don't want to use the main engines and most airports restrict APU use these days, they are  loud!  Air, when you can get it for the airconditioning is great and a lot of even smaller aircraft do have an airconditioning inlet for ground airconditioning.

Most bigger airplanes have an ADG or a variation of it, Air Driven Generator, sometime called a RAT for ram air turbine, it drops out when you tell it to and it has blades that should spin and provide electical power, on ours you can select it to send ALL that power to a hydraulic pump so you can get a little electrical power or a little hydraulic power... you either power part of one main bus or get some hydraulic power to a few items.  To be honest if you are down to having to choose between using the ADG to give you one or the other and you have NO other hydraulics or electrical power...it really wasn't your day to go flying!  Works to about 80 knots in the book but we saw it still giving us stuff at 60 knots and then the FE got busy and didn't really note when it wasn't doing anything.  Some noise, you know it is out but not all that bad.

 Oh, and if the engines are hot, then you have to worry about the temp in the engine before the start (the hotter it is before start the hotter start you get and if it gets too hot you HAVE to abort the start and there is risk damage.  (We were told that most of the wear on a turbine engine that effects its life is during the heat rise in the start cycle so you try for cool starts and to avoid wasted starts and hot starts both the temp getting too hot and the engine being hot right before you start.)  So you might risk doing  cooling cycle, like a start but you have the ignitors off and don't add fuel.  The ambient air flowing thru should drop the temp inside.  Or you just might let it spin a little longer, get a little more air going thru it and the temp should start going down.  You might have a starter limit, starter engaged time and how many stgarts during a time period...most the ones I have seen limit you to three starts and then you sit for a while.  I once got stuck in SFO with a limit that said we had to let the starter cool to "Ambient".  I'm going to open the engine to feel the starter before trying another start?  Who thought of that one?  Is that an hour, two hours?  What OFIDSUJFIO thought that one up!  One of the few times I really lost it, I was pissed!  To throw a few bags that could have gone on the next flight...which due to our delay beat us there!  Big delay pissed pax and a longer day that we already had and it was long!

 Add the fuel too soon, too low of RPM, POOF! real hot start or if the ignitors are not snapping or all sorts of things can go wrong.  I've seen several feet of flame coming out from a bad start.  As long as it doesn't overtemp...okay but it does scare the pax.  Also seen windows melted, again, I have done plenty of stupid things in aircraft but have yet to melt a window.

And yes, you DO want hydraulic pressure, they tell you that the accumulators will give you 10, 15, 20, 25 brake applications...don't believe them.  I know a guy that ran over several Cessnas at KSMF nine applications into a supposed 25?  Me, I shut an airplane down blocking a runway at KSFO once when we lost nose wheel steering and dumped most of our hydraulic fluid on the ground.  No brakes...no nose wheel steering.  I no drive!  I shut down, waited for Maintence to come get "their" airplane.  I didn't want that one anymore!  (At first they were a bit pissed at me for refusing to taxi back to the gate but after they got there and really looked at it...they didn't want to taxi it either...LOL)

 Jets:  The smaller jets I have flow were pretty much like the turbo-props in starting and stopping.  Big ones for the most part use compressed air, best source is the APU, ground air can work but at times we have needed TWO carts to get us enough air to start.  Not all that much PSI but the flow is big.  Not always can you get two air units (huffers) at a time and you still need the electrical power for all the other stuff.  So now you have three carts plugged in and the meter is running and you HAVE to start one engine in the gate (some places will not allow that at all other you can work with) or arrange for a long push (Ground will really love you for this mess) get the carts plugged in while you sit blocking the taxiway or alley, the checklists done, and you are doing something not usual so you are going slow and really reading them and other people want to push or get into their gate...you feel the LOVE!  Get the carts unplugged once you get one running...and you are in East BumXXX and they don't understand English all that well and you are just haveing a wonderful day and you have about six hours more to go, ten hours into the day and you were supposed to be on short final to your overnight spot right now...your fun meter is pegged!  Parts of Africa they might not have diesel for the tug and GPU's.  Been there done that, it isn't all that fun! 

We like AC but we can use DC and it depends upon the aircraft.  With luck we have one shot at getting the APU going with the battery.  In DC-10s and 11's you can run #2, the tail engine and use it as a big APU, not the best choice, noise, fuel, the jet blast.  But if you are doing a turn in East BumXXXX and there is NO working ground power or GPUs and your APU is broken well you don't want to spend the night (and a broken airplane in some parts of the world can turn into days there...(we carry almost $2,000,000 (no, I don't know if that is retail or wholesale) of parts and a mech with us most the time) there now do you?  So yeah I have done that.  Someone that is qualified HAS to be on the flight deck since there is NO auto shutdown on the engines, most APU's have lots of reasons to auto shutdown so someone being on the flight deck isn't so important.  Oh, and since dispatch didn't figure that into their fuel load you got to guess how much that is going to burn and hope you have enough fuel to meet the dispatch fuel requirment but not make you overweight for takeoff or landing.  You don't want to dump fuel...unless you really have to so you might fly slow with some drag out to get you to landing weight if you really have to.  Oh and of course you can't dump fuel in the gate so you have to get defueled and not all trucks can do that and some airports consider defueled fuel to be junk and not to be put back into another airplane...oh, and they don't give you any money for it either, you bought it soooo sad.  You might be talking to your Chief Pilot when you really wanted to be sleeping!  "What's this about you off loading 30,000 lbs of fuel....?  And you were four hours late leaving.....?"

 The short of it is, you start and stop the engines the way they tell you too, and that is also affected by the airport.  It would be very unusual to run anything but an APU in the gate and that is getting rare but it does happen but you will still hear fans, possibly the airconditioning packs and even hydraulic pumps as systems are being checked.

 The old round engines were wonderful but I knew a guy that had flow the Connies at the end of their international work at TWA and then went into the early 707s back when jet engines were not all that good.  In one series of flights on his last trip in the Connie he had something like two shutdowns and two precautionary shutdowns.  Never had to shut down turbine engine.  I can't make that claim but I do know I picked up a large goose coming out of KRNO one time and didn't shut down the engine, the viberationg was high but in limits (didn't know about the bird strike).  Got to our destination, found the bird damage, wrote it up, they gave us another airplane and we left.  They pulled the damaged fan blades and the ones 180 degrees away, replaced them (I think in less than an hour including the paperwork) and flew it until that night and then changed the engine.  Almost any fool can handle a turbine engine, you needed a real Flight Engineer on the big recips.

 The real simple idea to keep in mind that if you have good airflow thru the engine and all the other parts are doing their part, the FCU, ignitors and all that good stuff you should have a cool start.  Wind up the tail pipe, spin it up longer or to a higher rpm, hot since you just shut it down, let that cooler ambient air cool it down. Go to "max motoring".  Yeah, it can affect seal life if you do it too long on some engines and you cannot run the starter too long but I bet the seals hate hot starts more than most other things.

I like P&W but the only engines I have had to shut down or have quit on me were Pratts.  But I trust in P&W.......And GE!

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, April 21, 2007 2:29 PM
Yes, the Jet Engines are shut off's and re-strated during push backs.
  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:14 AM

Here is a picture of a cart firing on a Hun:

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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