2015 Messerschmitt Bf 109 Group Build

Eagle: I had look at my references. Here's what i came up with:

First of all, according to the book on Barkhorn, that particular G-6 did have a spinner spiral:

There's also a pretty nice color profile of this machine in that book:

I'm just gonna go ahead and throw all the good photos I got in here:

I hope these help...

Cheers, Clemens 

Thunderbolt379

Bish -- I mix my own RLM 74/75 and 76 in Tamiya Acrylics -- here's my blog post that discusses the ratios. I'm still using the same ones today, I did the Fw 190 A-8 last year using them (though I have substituted MM Acryl 76 as it's spot on -- but their 74 and 75 are miles out.)

"Their [Tamiya's] formula for RLM 76 (XF-2 Flat White plus XF-23 Pale Blue plus XF-66 Light Grey at a ratio of 7:1:2, provides a virtually perfect match for the original, lacking only lustre, and an addition of 25 to 30% X-22 Clear Gloss approximates the sheen of the original RLM colours. Unfortunately, their suggested formulas for the 74 and 75 are miles off, and I experimented to find a decent fit. For 74 they recommend XF-24 Dark Grey and XF-27 Schwartzgrun at 3:2, but this was too dark and too green, especially compared to the Model Master enamel equivalent. I reduced the ratio to 3:1 and added 1 part Flat White as well, then brought up the lustre with 30% Clear Gloss. For the 75, Tamiya suggests XF-51 Khaki should be a component, but as 75 has no green hue at all this mystifies me. I mixed it from scratch, starting with XF-24 Dark Grey and adding Flat White at a ratio of 2:1, then adding 30% Clear Gloss. On reflection this was too much gloss, as darker shades reflect more strongly than lighter ones, and 20% would have been ample. The final shades were acceptably similar to the Model Master enamel equivalents, though I have to say the acrylics are both more delicate and lack a certain 'gutsiness' that the solvent-based paints have."

Cheers, M/TB379

Indeed....Tamiya's RLM suggestions are way off.  I find Gunze to be the best representation to my eye.  

Mustang: I built model cars in the early 80s too.  I loved those Monogram muscle cars.  It would seem we are almost the same age

Clemens: Nice pics....IMO...All 109s should have spinner spirals. Like all P-40s need sharkmouths.....anyone know if there was a real purpose for the spirals?  Maybe to hypnotize?

Joe

I'm pretty sure those spirals were painted on to keep the ground crews from walking into turning props.

Morning LawDog... (and all) I appreciate the info on the mixtures. What type of measurement is used to keep the mixtures constant? I mean, what process and measurement medium do you use. I have in the past only guessed at it using "Dosage cups" which a local Pharmacy is kind enough to save for me, and a pipette.

As far as the spirals on the spinners, I ran across that topic once in one of the books I have, it was mentioned that at first, yes, the spirals were not only applied to the spinners but to the front of the prop blades in an attempt to throw off the aim of the gunners on the bombers, But later were just seen as a way to mark their aircraft. Thats like a concept that I have never been able to grasp, painting a night fighter pale blue (76) . I understand that looking down on an attacker painted solid black looks like a blob blocking out the light of the landscape below, but pale blue???  Thanks again...

Doug

PS... Clemens makes a good point too!

Joe (lawdog) and Joe (mustang) I also built plenty of t he monogram muscle cars in the early 80's. What are we all in our mid forties

Spirals on  spinners - I recall reading about this elsewhere, with the following link being a reference:

http://ghostbombers.com/markings/bands1.html

Of particular note is this entry:

4) All fighter a/c of Luftflotte 3 and Reich are to have a black and white spiral painted on the spinner. Size one and a half spirals turning in the same direction as the spinner. Width ⅕ of the diameter of the spinner.

-------------------------------

Looking at period photos, there is obvious differences in sizes, so maybe the order was not fully understood per above, or it was purposely done to be different?

regards,

Jack

JG, it was not unusual to see many interpretations of what something was "supposed" to be. This was also a problem with armor, thus you would see schemes that looked like they were painted by Picasso and others that were more in line to what we feel today, the expectations of the order. Spirals were masked and painted by hand, variances would occur.  Colors from the same batch of paint would look different based upon what was used as a reducer. Unless someone comes up with a variety of color photos for a specific aircraft, and even then how the film was processed would affect what the colors looked like, it is hard to say what was "correct" or not. I know I took this way past your spinner statement, just not that easy to stop once I get going.

Mike the mix that I found for RLM 75 IS XF24 5 parts and xf50 1 part. I haven't used this mix yet but it makes sense. 75 had a violet hint to it and the field blue 50 would give it that

lawdog114

70:  Nice K-4.  Love the late war brown scheme.  The Tamiya Emil is my favorite...cheap, good detail and a breeze to build.  It could use some love in the cockpit.  I usually add a PE set and replace the seat. The Eduard one is much more detailed OOB and needs no AM, but a pain to build like their FW 190 series, especially if you want your models closed like me.  Hasegawa has an Emil too but I have no experience with it.    

Marc:  Again..incredible Winter scheme.

Brandon: Killer Emil.  I see your trying the black basing technique.  Your RLM mix is dead on.  Those Tamiya Emils fall together like the Spits. Your Spanish 109 is incredible too....

Allen:  Beautiful work so far.  

Joe: So help us with the math, how long did that Cuda sit on that base?  I'll remember that if I ever build one with rubber wheels.  

Fightinjoe:  Speechless....your work is incredible...

Eagle: I didn't know Otaki made a 109.  Great start...

Joe

Hey lawdog,

Yep, I also have the 190A-8 and the Spitfire Mark VIII from Otaki.  The kits seem to be really nice.  Great detail on the outside, not as much in the cockpit, but nice.  And the plastic seems a bit soft, but they are fun kits and the fit is really good, at least on this kit.

Eagle90

Thank you BD!  I must say I really like the paint scheme on yours!  Very cool!

Eagle90

Thunderbolt379

Bish -- I mix my own RLM 74/75 and 76 in Tamiya Acrylics -- here's my blog post that discusses the ratios. I'm still using the same ones today, I did the Fw 190 A-8 last year using them (though I have substituted MM Acryl 76 as it's spot on -- but their 74 and 75 are miles out.)

"Their [Tamiya's] formula for RLM 76 (XF-2 Flat White plus XF-23 Pale Blue plus XF-66 Light Grey at a ratio of 7:1:2, provides a virtually perfect match for the original, lacking only lustre, and an addition of 25 to 30% X-22 Clear Gloss approximates the sheen of the original RLM colours. Unfortunately, their suggested formulas for the 74 and 75 are miles off, and I experimented to find a decent fit. For 74 they recommend XF-24 Dark Grey and XF-27 Schwartzgrun at 3:2, but this was too dark and too green, especially compared to the Model Master enamel equivalent. I reduced the ratio to 3:1 and added 1 part Flat White as well, then brought up the lustre with 30% Clear Gloss. For the 75, Tamiya suggests XF-51 Khaki should be a component, but as 75 has no green hue at all this mystifies me. I mixed it from scratch, starting with XF-24 Dark Grey and adding Flat White at a ratio of 2:1, then adding 30% Clear Gloss. On reflection this was too much gloss, as darker shades reflect more strongly than lighter ones, and 20% would have been ample. The final shades were acceptably similar to the Model Master enamel equivalents, though I have to say the acrylics are both more delicate and lack a certain 'gutsiness' that the solvent-based paints have."

Cheers, M/TB379

WOW!  TB, you sure have done some work with the colors!  Thank you so much for all that.  That will most definitely come in handy!

Eagle90

mustang1989

Eagle90: I'm with Joe. I didn't even know Otaki had a 109 in their line up. Looks like your handling the body work good so far and as far as the prop spinner goes I remember a spiral on his spinner. Will check my references.

Clemens: I'll look in my references too and see if I can shed some light on this as well. The more the merrier. lol

Joe: That Cuda sat on that base for right around 30 years. Seems almost like yesterday when I built it.

Mike: Now that's getting down to the "nitty gritty" for an accurate color! Wow! Bringin' it down to a science!

Hey Mustang,

Thanks so much!  LOL!  I was going to post a pic of the 109 box and forgot!  I also have the 190 and Spitfire from them.  Nice kits!

Eagle90

SchattenSpartan

Eagle: I had look at my references. Here's what i came up with:

First of all, according to the book on Barkhorn, that particular G-6 did have a spinner spiral:

There's also a pretty nice color profile of this machine in that book:

I'm just gonna go ahead and throw all the good photos I got in here:

I hope these help...

Cheers, Clemens 

Clemens!  Thank you so much!  Wow!  Great pics and the color one is a plus.  But, you also answered another question I had.  The kit has the JG52 crest shown on the fuselage.  Your reference pics and all the ones Isaw did not show him having it on the bird!  So, thank you again!  Great stuff!  Many thanks for the help and pics.

Eagle90

SchattenSpartan

I'm pretty sure those spirals were painted on to keep the ground crews from walking into turning props.

Ouch!  Now that would make for a bad day!

Eagle90

jgeratic

Spirals on  spinners - I recall reading about this elsewhere, with the following link being a reference:

http://ghostbombers.com/markings/bands1.html

Of particular note is this entry:

4) All fighter a/c of Luftflotte 3 and Reich are to have a black and white spiral painted on the spinner. Size one and a half spirals turning in the same direction as the spinner. Width ⅕ of the diameter of the spinner.

-------------------------------

Looking at period photos, there is obvious differences in sizes, so maybe the order was not fully understood per above, or it was purposely done to be different?

regards,

Jack

Hey Jack!  Now that is some cool reference material!  Thanks so much for posting it.  I sure was hoping to not have to do a spiral spinner, but I'm just out of luck on that huh? 

Eagle90

I have had time to do a little bit on the K. The wings are together and riveted except for the leading edge slats. I am using a MDC cockpit on this one and have got it assembled and primed.

Jay

Thanks, guys! Rigid -- you pose an interesting question and one which is not often discussed. How do we get paint from the jar into the airbrush, including the mixing and thinning stages? My personal technique, used for so long that it must go back to when I first began to use an AB, is to use drops off the blunt end of a paint brush. I use the reverse end of a small brush to stir the paint in the jar, then let the paint drop from the stirrer into the syphon bottle. I add all necessary paints, then add thinner by ratio the same way, from a clean brush (obviously.) They have different surface tensions, but it seems to work out well enough. It means I can be numerically precise on the ratios -- six drops of this to two drops of that to ten drops of the other, then 50% of the total in thinner... It is also very economical on paint, I have observed over the years that when painting small jobs, it seems I waste more paint adhering to the stirrer than in the job itself, but I can recover unused portions of unmodulated colour right back to the original jar. It's only a few cents worth, but hey...

TJ -- thanks for the tip, I must try that mixture! XF-50 I might have to pick up. I have only a few colours to get to have a full collection of the XF series now.

My masks and harness arrived in the post today, so I can get back to the 109s. I'm still trying to track down a replacement canopy for the G-2, and I have just realised I didn't order masks for the small E-4 -- GRRR. No matter, things will be happening before long!

Cheers, M/TB379

Wow some seriously talented people around here.  

Thank you all so much for the kind words.

Update.  Just a small one.

Interior is finished and the fuse is closed.  There were some gaps, not sure if it was kit or builder issues.  

Where I stand.









Pardon the pics.  I am back to working on taking pictures again.  


Next up will be sanding some stubborn areas to clean it up and then actual color.  I did paint around the cut out area just to make sure I did not bleed over.

All comments, critiques, and criticism are encouraged.



Joe

Very nice work, Joe! I like it a lot.

Jay

Jay many thanks.  Thankfully the closing of the fuse hid some of the issues I really worried about.  Now just to get through the painting without screwing it up royally.

Joe

Looking really nice there jay. How do you find the MDC stuff. I have one item and a few more lined up but not used any yet.

Joe, that is just brilliant. really nice work, some lovely detailing in there. Love the engine.

Thanks Mike, (TB) I have done it like that before but wasnt sure if you had a more precise way then I had. I would draw some paint into a pipette and let it drip out, counting the drips, or like you said, let it drip from a brush. Thanks for the info...

Doug

Bish

Looking really nice there jay. How do you find the MDC stuff. I have one item and a few more lined up but not used any yet.

I have used quite a bit of it and like it very much. Highly recommended.

Jay

Thanks jay. I have the Ju 88 bomb racks and am planning on getting the bits for the He 219.Nice to hear them recommended.

Ajd3530 -- those were windows meant to increase pilot visibility from the earliest design phase. They were later deleted as a simplification as production corners were cut, at least that's my understanding.

M/TB379

PS: I ordered the mask set for the E-4 from LuckyModel last night, but they're on a 2-3 week restock, plus shipping, so it'll be another month at least!

So it seems pretty safe to say that any E-1 or E-3 with the early style canopy would have those windows. Thanks!

Bish many thanks.

Joe