Mighty 8th GB 1-Nov-2010 - 31-Oct-2011

I hear what you're saying. Problem is I have no idea how to do what you suggest. I'm outlining panel lines right now... I can't get the effect subtle enough. I've been around a lot of airplanes and have never seen the exagerated demarcation between panels some modelers insist on.

I want to try a burnt umber wash over simple #2 graphite panel lines very lightly done... I am getting ready to repaint the whole thing if it all goes bad.

jbrady

I hear what you're saying. Problem is I have no idea how to do what you suggest. I'm outlining panel lines right now... I can't get the effect subtle enough. I've been around a lot of airplanes and have never seen the exagerated demarcation between panels some modelers insist on.

I want to try a burnt umber wash over simple #2 graphite panel lines very lightly done... I am getting ready to repaint the whole thing if it all goes bad.

Oh man, I hear you! I've been futzing around with this problem since I came back to modeling this summer. I've been playing around with a lot of techniques and had a lot of failures, but I'm finding that some things work really well together in combination. 

A few of the things I've been doing:

Preshading - Tracing panel lines before airbrushing the main coats. IMO this only works well on lighter colors. And even then I usually end up totally obscuring it. I've only pulled it off once.

Three-layer blend - You can see it a few posts back when I did the ocean gray coat. Basically base coat, lightened coat (base color + 50% white) in panel centers and in random streaks, and a blending coat (25% base color, 75% thinner works well for me) that ties it all back together. I've found this gives a nice variability to the finish.

Post-shading - Very thin paint (I use 10% Tamiya Black/Brown mix, 90% lacquer thinner) tracing panel lines. It's easy to overdo this one, though.

Oil washes - I've been using Winton & Newton artist oils and Mona Lisa Odorless thinner. I've had very good luck with two types of washes. The first is the good old pin wash into the panel lines. The second is a more highly thinned filter wash brushed across entire surfaces. There's a color called Transparent White that does a really subtle streaking/fading effect. 

Clear coats and wet sanding - discovered this on accident when a flat coat nearly ruined my Dauntless. Basically, it goes like this - gloss coat to seal the decals, flat coat on top, then very light wet sanding over that. It strips away or thins down the flat coat so that you get this really nice variability in sheen, which to my eye is pretty similar to the way a lot of actual aircraft appear in the archival photos. Here's how it came out on that Dauntless:

Of course, the same approach nearly ruined my La-5...so proceed with caution...

Thanks for the tips. They are well appreciated. I wanted to try lightening up the center of panels but I don't think I have enough control of my airbrush... it's a single action Badger 200 detailing brush and I just can't get the nerve to try to go over a paint finish that I think is pretty good. I'm sure that all I'll do is make a mess at this point.

I like the dauntless. I'm going to be tackling that soon as part of a Cactus Airforce series.

Doogs Ye, i guess thats the same stuff. Of course, warmer months of the kind you mean are not really a problem over here. I have also used it on armour builds and just need to learn how to get a nice feathered edge with it.

jbrady I have taken to useing Pro Moderler weathering wash. I apply it after the Matt finish and the once try a damp cotton bud takes up any access. I find this darkens up the edge of the panels enough. I don't really get this idea of haveing panels lighter in  the middle than at the edge. I don't see how it would happen on a real plane, so why do it on a model.

jbrady

I wanted to try lightening up the center of panels but I don't think I have enough control of my airbrush... it's a single action Badger 200 detailing brush and I just can't get the nerve to try to go over a paint finish that I think is pretty good. I'm sure that all I'll do is make a mess at this point.

The beauty of the lightening + blending approach is that you can blend it back to a uniform color if you want. I usually go with three coats...blends things pretty well, but keeps enough tonal variety to keep things interesting. Five light coats would probably knock it down to all-but-unnoticeable. 

Bish

Doogs Ye, i guess thats the same stuff. Of course, warmer months of the kind you mean are not really a problem over here. I have also used it on armour builds and just need to learn how to get a nice feathered edge with it.

jbrady I have taken to useing Pro Moderler weathering wash. I apply it after the Matt finish and the once try a damp cotton bud takes up any access. I find this darkens up the edge of the panels enough. I don't really get this idea of haveing panels lighter in  the middle than at the edge. I don't see how it would happen on a real plane, so why do it on a model.

I've got a bottle of ProModeller's Dark Dirt wash and definitely make use of it. It's clay-based, so you can go back and clean things up until you put a clear coat over it.

As far as lightening the panels - personally I see it as an alternative to preshading, especially with darker colors. I'm coming around more and more to the idea that solid weathering - even on well-maintained aircraft - is all about creating tonal variation without making it look like you just botched the paint job. 

For me, that's why I like the lighten/blend method. It's great for introducing fading and color variations, and with the blend coat, you can control how obvious or subtle it is. Like anything else, I think it can be overdone (just like ink black panel lines), but kept subtle, it adds character to a swath of olive drab. I'm still trying to figure it out with camoflage - I've used it with both topside colors on this P-47, but I think I might have made it too subtle...of course, I try to save the bulk of weathering until after the decals go on, so hope's not lost yet!

Here's a great article on weathering aircraft - I've taken several ideas out of this (namely weathering's non-uniform nature) and combined it with techniques I've read elsewhere...but definitely worth checking out. I can only hope of building a P-47 as cool as the one shown off, too.

http://www.tamiyausa.com/articles/feature.php?article-id=29

This is what I was afraid of...

Oon the up side is the fact that I realized that I was missing on very important step...GLOSS COAT. I think htat's why I'm having so much trouble getting the wash to come up.

That's a pretty good article, especially the part about fading overall, not just in the center of panels.  None of the old finishes on airplanes I've been around looked like that.  The fading goes across panels and color demarcations.  Makes it more difficult to achieve, at least it does for me.  Also, areas that get direct sunlight fade more than vertical or underneath areas.

Thanks for that article. I see the point there about lightening some areas, but not just the centre of panels. I am still getting to grips with weatheirng aircraft. I am happy with my exhaust staining and doing the panel lines, but still need to work and a bit more wear on the aircraft. That article is going to help.

Well, I spent last night fighting with the old Monogram decals. Lost the invasion stripes under the fuselage, and that's such a nasty area to mask I'm probably just going to leave it off. The rest had some milky white junk going on, and didn't really like the idea of laying down. Finally got them relatively clear and settled down and went to sleep.

Woke up this morning to find this:

Gaaaaah!

Now I need to figure out how to fix it...

Ouch, thats nasty. Other than more setting solution afraid i have no idea. Not come across that yet.

What's that carrier film made out of?... rubber With my temperment there would be a pile of plastic in a corner right about now.

This is where I'm at now the first pic is before a lightened coat without panel accent.

The difference is subtle but I still have another lighter coat that I hope will tie it together.

jbrady - I can already see a difference with the lightened coat - lookin' good!

Removing the decals created its own havoc...there's still residue left over and soaking the kit did bad things to the paint...

It was about to go on a one-way sortie against the garage wall, but the wife persuaded me to put it back in the box for later.

Thankfully, it was an old Monogram I'd scored for $10, and I hadn't put any aftermarket into it aside from the wheels, which haven't gone on yet.

In the meantime, I'm going to try again. Ordered Aeromaster's sheet with Hairless Joe's markings, and picked up a new airframe...

Just got it washed off in the sink...the sprues are drying now and I'm planning to dive in tonight...

Bish, would you mind changing the kit from Monogram to Tamiya?

Dang that sucks doogs, I'm always affraid of messing up a model but since I'm still fairly new to it, its going to happen more than I like, expecially aircraft. Just seems like money waisted to me and I always try to finish it no matter how it looks.

I did see that very P-47 at an airshow, Im not sure if I have any pictures of it or not, If I'm able to dig anything up I can try to scan and send them to you.

DoogsATX: Sorry for the setback. I really appreciate the painting tips. When I was mixing up the lightened base coat I had my doubts. It just seemed like the chalkiest mess. But spraying at low pressure with a fine tip worked well.

I can't thank you guys enough for the advice on painting this beast. I lost some of the panel detail but I think a thin wash of burnt umber will bring it back. I can't believe how much better it looks now... actually I didn't know enough to know how slilly it looked before I took your advice.

That Razorback's really looking awesome!

Don't feel bad about not knowing - I can't tell you how long it took me to come to some of the realizations I did around aircraft finishes. When I was building models growing up, weathering meant slathering the thing with paint chipping. I discovered washes toward the very end...but I was disgustingly heavy-handed with them:

I've only really been trying to vary up the actual paint itself since I came back to models this summer...every kit so far has been a valuable lesson in what works and what doesn't (latest lesson - DON'T USE OLD KIT DECALS!). Here's hoping this next Bolt goes the way I want (I'm also thinking I might freehand the camo this time...the masking always seems to give me too hard of an edge).

I dont trust my airbrush skills enough to try free hand... though I did discover tonight I can get a pretty fine line. I have to remind myself my girlfiend keeps telling me patience. This is only the third plastic kit I've ever attempted. As long as I see improvement in each one that should be good enough.

I did find that I can completely remove hard acryl washes using alcohol and a little scrubbing. Doesn't seem to damage the enamel at all.

In addition to "Hairless Joe", I'm also ramping up a P-38F at the moment, and in my initial research I came across definitive proof of center-of-panel fading:

Turns out when P-38s were shipped out, anywhere that moisture could get in (basically panel lines) was sealed with a clear varnish. Thus, when they hit service, the unvarnished paint faded faster than the varnished, leaving the center of the panels faded versus the perimeters...

Doogs Feel for you mate, that was looking sooooooooooooo good. Hopefully this time you will be happier with the paint scheme as well. One tip i read about getting a lightly feathered edge was to cut out stencils out of somthing like sheet styrene. Instead of haveing it right next to the model, attache it useing rolled up putty so it stands away slightly. I haven't tried it yet, but might be an idea.

jbrady Looking good, that deffinatly coming along nicely. Thats what i love about this site. I have picked up more in the last two years on here than i had in the privious 20 years of modelling.

jbrady--It looks like you are making good progress.  Congratulations.  I think modeling is all about try and try; maybe fail; and try again.  I now have a big collection of spare B-17 parts from "fail" over the last twenty years--which will come in handy if Airfix doesn't get me my missing fuselage-half soon.   

Doogs--I've never seen anything like the response you got with those decals.  Some I've had did emit a milky substance, which I suppose is the glue; but it always cleaned up with water.  Never have seen the kind of bubbly winkling you got.  On the plus side, maybe you've just discovered a new scientific principle of some kind.

But then there was the time I picked up the wrong bottle off the table, didn't check the label and used Micro's "liquid decal film" instead of "MircoSet."  That was a mess that wouldn't be undone.  I had to repaint.

Bish--below is a P-47 I finished 3 or 4 years ago.  I used masks cut from paper, made from photocopied enlargements of the kit painting diagram.  I used rolled up masking tape to "float" them above the surface.  The demarcation did not still come out as soft as I would have liked.  This is the Academy 1/72 kit, 56th Fighter Group, pilot was Francis Gabreski.  I've never tried plastic.  Do you think it would be too stiff to conform to the surfaces of the model? 

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A progress report:  I installed the Fortress's waist windows over the weekend.  It's difficult to say how they've turned out until I paint.  They seem somewhat thick to me, and didn't quite fit, so I had to use gap filling superglue.  I sanded as smooth as I think I can get them.  Will try to post a photo when I can get my daughter's camera again--otherwise things are hard to see since the window and framing are all clear vacu-formed.

I've used the cutout/float method before...I actually really like it for top/bottom demarkations, but I'm not sure how well it'd work for as complicated a camo scheme as Schilling's ride. 

I actually started with silly putty masks, then moved to freehand on my La-5 when I had to repaint. I couldn't get the White Ensign enamels to spray fine very well, but I still liked the freehand better.

Here's the masked:

and freehand:

P-47 Update:

Got the cockpit, engine and gear bay bits primed last night. Painted the major cockpit and engine pieces this morning.

Not wanting to use White Ensign again (people love it...but it has several characteristics I don't like), I went on the hunt for a Model Master equivalent of Dull Dark Green and came up with Euro I Dark Green. It's actually a closer match to the one pic I have of a P-47 still sporting its DDG wartime interior (most of the refurbs adopted interior green). 

Found an Eduard placard set at the LHS, too, so I'll be adding it into the mix along with the Ultracast seat.

Hopefully I'll have some pics to share tonight.

OK here it is with the wash. The gloss coat made all the difference in the world. The wash came up with just a little water and rubbing.

Bish: Is it too late to add another... I got a line on an AC P 51B that would go well with this build.

jbrady:  your wash looks excellent.  I may give washes another chance after all, if I can achieve the results you obtained.

Doogs:  I see what you mean; the freehand looks better.  I have a Paasche single action, and since I only do 1:72, I don't think I could get the precision you're getting.  On the other hand, 1:72 is so small, it maybe isn't as obvious.

While my daughter is at work (now) I found her camera and took the photos below.  I still don't have the hang of her camera!  But maybe the general idea comes through.  I taped the windows in place while I ran some superglue in at one lower corner; let it dry, then tacked down the bottom edge.  When that was dry, I repeated the process with the top edge, since the windows did not want to lay flat on the fuselage sides by themselves without a little persuasion.  I used the wind deflector inscribed on the kit to keep them level and straight, so I didn't glue the sides down.  I will fill these little joints with diluted white glue, which I usually do in some areas to avoid filling and sanding.  Most times it works out just fine.

One thing I've found handy when using superglues and clear plastic is a small battery operated fan (the kind "junk" stores sell to keep you cool in summer).  After I have the glue on, I aim the fan at it.  The moving air keeps the superglue from leaving that nasty white deposit.  I've heard that dipping the part in Future floor wax also prevents this, but I guess I'm too lazy to take that extra step.

Again, after I mask and paint, these might require more tweeking--I simply can't tell yet (even under magnification) if they blended in acceptably.

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I have no idea how you can work in 1/72... I can barely see what I'm doing in 1/48. Don't get too exited about washes just yet. I tried the underside a little while ago and now I am remasking to completely repaint. No idea how there could have been such a difference between the OD upper and gray lower but there sure was. No matter what I did I couldn't get the wash to come up without taking off the paint... Oh Well

checkmateking02 You could be right about plastic being to stiff to conform. Your idea about paper masks useing the instructions to make them is a nice idea. The problem with 72nd is trying to get it just right. It doesn't want to be as feathered as a larger scale, but you want somthing that doesn't look like a hard edged scheme. I have done German mottle free hand on the tail of a 72nd Me 262 and that came out nice, so i am not sure yet weather to try masking or free hand. Guess i will cross that bridge when i come to it.

Doogs I am having trouble getting a feathered edge useing putty, i would have liked less of a hard line on my B-24. But again, 72nd scale doesn't need to stand out as much and maybe useing just putty gives a good end result in that scale.

jbrady Echo what the others said, nice looking finish you have got. Can you just confirm what you used for the wash.

I started out on 72nd aircraft so i guess its all what your used to, and i have noticed the same reaction as you from guys who build larger scales. For me its just the norm. I do have a few 32nd scale kits so i am hopeing they will be a breeze after the smaller scale.

Bish

Doogs I am having trouble getting a feathered edge useing putty, i would have liked less of a hard line on my B-24. But again, 72nd scale doesn't need to stand out as much and maybe useing just putty gives a good end result in that scale.

I used to build 72nd a lot as a kid. And I can see the appeal if you're doing bombers. Personally I'll never consider anything smaller than 1/48 again - even in 1/48 my eyes wig out on me sometimes. 

You should try the paper mask. I've had good luck cutting heavy stock paper (construction paper or even card stock) to the right shape, then putting risers underneath to keep it elevated. Only downside is that I have to hold the paper, I've never had any luck tacking it down. But it can give you a really nice, defined but soft demarkation.