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The group build to end all group builds - THE GREAT WAR

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  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Michigan
Posted by tonka on Thursday, April 7, 2011 12:00 PM

Wing Nut and Doogs...Very nice work!! The leather and the wood are coming out superb.

I think I will try those techniques on another entry for this build. I just picked up a WW1 Ford T Lorry in 1/35 from a Polish Manufacturer (I think). I plan to convert it to left hand drive and mark it as a USMC vehicle that is on display at the Marine Corps Museum in Quantico.

Also started on my WW1 Marine figure conversion. Will post pics tonight or tomorrow.

Great work all and thanks for the details on the techniques!!

Kevin

]

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Thursday, April 7, 2011 2:43 PM

Kevin looking forward to some photos.

Mike, thanks for the compliment.  Man-o-man that engine is hot.  The weathering on the pipes is great..  A quick description of method and materials would be great.  What about those fittings with the band clamps?  That's OOB too?

I already have an email ion to the guy that was in charge of the vendors for the show for the contact info.

Marc  

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Smithers, BC, Canada
Posted by ruddratt on Thursday, April 7, 2011 10:41 PM

Marc, glad you like 'er so far. The fittings around the manifold pipes are molded on. I just painted 'em black and added the foil clamps. I painted the manifold with Testors burnt metal and buffed 'er out. The copper was handpainted with a mixture of Pollyscale copper and burnt sienna acrylic to give it more of a reddish tone. A black wash finished it off.

Been going full-bore on 'er today. I cut some Tamiya tape into 2mm widths (and about 4.5" long) and wrapped it around the four cabane struts to simulate the fabric wrap seen on a lot of these birds.....

Also made a major dent in the interior paintwork, doing the doped linen and much of the woodwork. The linen is Tamiya deck tan faded out a bit with MM sand shot into the center of each panel. The wood is a base coat of Tamiya dark yellow, a generous coat of Future, and finally burnt sienna oil thinned with lighter fluid to speed up the drying time. I had to use about 5 different brushes to get the effect I was looking for ( it looks darn cool in person, trust me! Wink ).

Mike

 "We have our own ammunition. It's filled with paint. When we fire it, it makes pretty pictures....scares the hell outta people."

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Friday, April 8, 2011 10:39 AM

The foil clamps really make the connectors stand out. 

Marc  

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Connecticut, USA
Posted by Nachtflieger on Friday, April 8, 2011 7:07 PM

Wow! There's some excellent work going on here. Really inspiring me to finish up my panzerjager, and start on my Roland.Big Smile

Nate

 

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2010
  • From: Brisbane
Posted by Julez72 on Friday, April 8, 2011 9:09 PM

Doogs, Mike & Marc, You guys are killing meBow DownBow DownBow DownI'm gonna have to start the Dr1....

Speaking of the Dr1 do you fellas know if the the Triplane Richtofen flew on his last flight was all red or did it have blue undersides? I have referance photos but i still can't tell....

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Friday, April 8, 2011 10:45 PM

Doog,

I'm scratching my head about the shading effect that best fits a plane like the pup with doped linen undersides. If you look at WingNut instructions the spars and other frame bits are lighter than the linen base color - about what you'd expect from drybrushing. Des, the guy who runs WWIaircraft argues that at least linen colored aircraft had a translucent effect when looked at from beneath in sunlight. (Check his section on preshading for his techniques and the photos he uses to support the approach.) Consequently, Des' WNW Pup is shaded with the spars etc darker than the linen. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that you can download an expanded image from Wingnut so I can only provide a thumbnail. Des' Pup wing is below it. A photo from the delightful Rosebud's World War I and Early Aviation Photo Archive shows something of what I think Des is looking at. Might also add that it looks both want the khaki to cover the lower edges - that's going take some careful work to get right.

(Doog: I've got that airbrush needle on my overworked brain. You using an old needle like a dental pick or is it in an old airbrush and you push it into the target with the airbrush control?)

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Memphis TN
Posted by Heavens Eagle on Saturday, April 9, 2011 1:08 AM

EBergerud They say a picture is worth a thousand words, well here you are.  This photo is of a crashed Sopwith Pup.  It shows the underside quite well.  It is from a Windsock publication and I have seen it published someplace else where it had a caption that said something to the effect that :  The linen and undersides of radial engine planes became quite filthy in a hurry.  This due to the fuel oil mixture that the rotary engines slung out and the dirt that would be thrown up on this coating by the prop.

This photo even quite grainy and poor shows this quite well.  The whole underside even back to the tail feathers is quite dirty.  It also shows the spaces between the ribs to be slightly darker than the ribs though this could be the rib tape causing a lightening due to thickness of material.

Hope it helps.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Saturday, April 9, 2011 6:49 AM

 It also shows the spaces between the ribs to be slightly darker than the ribs though this could be the rib tape causing a lightening due to thickness of material.

That's my take on it... It's the rib tapes...  Even if you leave the underside in clear dope, the topside is painted, and it's the same as a painting one side of a window... It's gonna be opaque unless there's one helluva strong, direct light source shining through it...

This due to the fuel oil mixture that the rotary engines slung out and the dirt that would be thrown up on this coating by the prop.

Close.. Those engines had a "Total Loss" oil system, meaning that the oil was used up as well... The reason for the cut-out at the bottom of rotary-engined aircraft was to keep this mist of castor oil at the bottom of the fuselage, and keep it from going back into the pilot's face, with it's subsequent side-effects on the pilot's GI tract... Didn't work a 100% though...  

(Not all "Emergency Landings" were because of damage from enemy fire Wink) No one would say that WW1 pilots suffered from irregularity...

BTW: There's a video I've watched of a Spitfire/Camel (with an authentic Clerget Rotary engine powering it) "heritage flight" that shows the exhaust/oil trail of the Clerget quite well... It almost looks like it's using an airshow smoke-generator... I'll if I can find it.. It's amazing to see that old bird fly with a Spitfire.. The camel is going balls-out and the Spitfire is hangin' on it's prop just above stall speed...

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Saturday, April 9, 2011 10:43 AM

Here's the link to the Spitfire/Camel formation flight vid...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6PnKUEFX8g

160 HP rotary and it goes into how to handle the Camel's spark-arrested ignition/throttle system... You can hear him "blipping" the engine at start-up and taxi and no exhaust system... Means it's LOUD, lol..

 

  • Member since
    September 2007
  • From: Truro Nova Scotia, Canada
Posted by SuppressionFire on Saturday, April 9, 2011 12:31 PM

DoogsATX

Big steps last night! I assembled probably 3/4 of the cockpit...no pics, since I've trapped it in the fuselage halves to set up properly. Hopefully some tonight. 

Also followed Marc's steps on my leather seat. Well, almost. Before hitting the oils stage, I drybrushed it with MM Dunkelgrau. The oils calmed down the effect, so now it's nice and subtle. I'm thinking I may satin coat it next, then drybrush some gloss (anybody have a recommendation for a gloss clear I can drybrush?) to simulate that "shiny" look that patches of a leather chair get over time. Other option would be satin then slight polishing with fine grit on the high areas.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy86/doogsatx/Sopwith%20Pup%20RNAS/d939d83c.jpg

Also went back to the engine with thinned Metallic Black. Much happier.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy86/doogsatx/Sopwith%20Pup%20RNAS/c7c5b389.jpg

 

Yes you need a bit of shine for the leather seat. (great job BTW~)

Try this: Swipe a bit of skin oil off your forehead and dry brush on. It works great for any natural semi-gloss look for figures skin, leather or worn paint that has lost its flat finish.

The only disadvantage of this technique is it may cause dust to stick, about bad as flat paint. If you keep your completed models dust free its not a issue.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/razordws/GB%20Badges/WMIIIGBsmall.jpg

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Saturday, April 9, 2011 12:38 PM

This is getting like the argument over 1940 Panzers - photo war. Below is one photo from wwiaircraft that best shows the effect and a period photo of a FE8 that does to my eyes also.  This post cost me a couple of hours because I got sucked into Rosebud's archive - 5100 period photos of about everything you could think of concerning WWI (and earlier) aircraft. Think RAF planes have a boring scheme? Paint one from training command, or better yet a captured Camel with German markings. They have a whole section dealing with crashes and "unfortunate pilots." These are old photos but the real deal. Fascinating stuff. (BTW: I was checking the online instructions on Eduard's site and they want the spars darkened on the wings - the opposite of WingNut. Guess shadows must bring out the artistic license.) No question WWI planes would have been dirty birds. I used to hang around with a guy who raced hydro-boats of some kind at a national level: the engines ran a special fuel that had a good dose of castor oil in it: the smell was awful. I read once (no confirmation) that some pilots used the nauseous smell as an excuse to bring a flask of brandy. Might add that Des on WWI aircraft is a little like some ship builders - he thinks weathering is all over the map for WWI aircraft and prefers "arrival day" condition.

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    September 2007
  • From: Truro Nova Scotia, Canada
Posted by SuppressionFire on Saturday, April 9, 2011 12:53 PM

Yes the translucent effect of fabric over frame would be impossible to simulate in plastic.

I wonder if extremely thin paper tinted with acrylic paint could be used over frame work to get that look? In larger scales (1/16 +) it would be the only way to go, smaller scales this would be rather difficult or impossible to achieve. 

Great photographs!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/razordws/GB%20Badges/WMIIIGBsmall.jpg

 

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Saturday, April 9, 2011 1:31 PM

Yes the translucent effect of fabric over frame would be impossible to simulate in plastic.

Crap. I was hoping no one wold say that.  Now I have to remember where I saw a model that looks like photos above.

Marc  

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Saturday, April 9, 2011 4:30 PM

I don't even know if the translucent effect exists - maybe it was a sometimes yes, sometimes no. (Nothing confuses most people more than the word "sometimes.") I noticed on Rosebud that the older the plane the more pronounced the effect. Modern replicas usually show nothing at all. As far as achieving the effect wwwiaircraft.com has a page dedicated to it. Very familiar to Tony Greenland fans. http://www.ww1aircraftmodels.com/page9.html

Doog: tried artist oil varnish for a quick sheen? You could put that on straight-up, although maybe experiment on something first. It's not a medium but a fluid put on oil paintings to preserve them. Adam Wilder is a fan of it for grease stains on tanks, and it certainly works for that. It looks more like the real deal than clear or Pledge. Art stores also sell acrylic varnish which is whitish - a lot like Vallejos "clear." Never used it.  (Did you check the wwiaircraft bit about spark plugs? That struck me as "not in this lifetime" but might appeal to the real detail heroes.)

Plane's are looking very sweet.

jEric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Saturday, April 9, 2011 4:45 PM

I'm more than a little familiar with Rosebud's WW1 archives.. I did a couple-three hundred hours of research for painting skins for the aircraft used in the WW1 flight simulator, "Red Baron 3D"... I also used it for several static models of Fokker Dr ls and D Vlls too, and their dioramas..  It's a marvelous research site and indeed,  all too easy to get "sucked into" lol...

Regarding the "Harry Tate"... I know that was a typo with the "F.E. 8" ID... An R.E. 8 ("'Harry Tate", see?) is what you meant, I know) at the top, that indeed is translucent.. But it's also unpainted, being covered in just the clear dope... The camouflage paint has yet to be added, as you pointed out with "arrival day", EB...

F.E. 8:  http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/raf_fe-8.php

I don't want a "Photo War", lol.. Too much bandwidth, lol...  The only thing I was trying to point out is that the eyes are decieving at times, so one has to look at all the little tells and study those... Then keep and discard whatever cancels out or supports the hypothosis...

Like the bottom R.E.8.. Given that I can find no evidence of a roundel shadow on the top wing (like the top photo), I'm assuming (ya, I know, I know) that the bottom is likely painted in a "sky" or light grey grey color rather than just being covered with the clear dope...

 Also, IMO, the rib tapes are creating an illusion of translucency, combined with lighting effects, like a reflector of some sort (I'm not a photographer though) is being used, and given the reflection off the wheel cover (which also contrasts to good effect the grey rubber that was common back then on aircraft tires), and the appearance of an overcast sky (which is not all that uncommon in France either, during the late Spring/early Summer), with the Channel storms causing a lot of weather over the mainland, makes good photography difficult at times...

However, I'll conceed that it is possible as well, that the top wing of the lower Harry Tate is finished in clear dope only, since I do see SOME kind of shadow, I think... Likely the spars... Apparently, this aircraft is undergoing it's first camouflage paint job, but we don't know where, when, or who, since their unit markings and squadron badges have yet to be applied...   

So.. What does all this mean?  Simple.. Paint the ribs on either side of the rib tapes if'n ya wanna to show shadows or translucency...  I'd use powdered charcoal and a 1-"0" red sable brush were I doing it... 

 I personally wouldn't spend much time on it, unless the underside is  the main focus, and I'd decided to display it inverted as the result of a crash-landing, or nosed-over in a shell-crater in No Man's Land (HOWEVER: This would negate the see-though effect as well, since there's no light source under the aircraft),  with perhaps one of Rosebud's "Unfortunate Aviators" still in the rear cockpit ...

Observers/gunners generally had a shorter life-expectancy than pilots (fighter pilots would want to aim well in order to incapacitate/kill the GIB as quickly as they could, for their own safety while finishing the attack), although with most recce flights, the Observer was the Mission Commander and an officer first, gunner second and didn't or couldn't spend a lot of time with their guns, at least not the amount that the bombers' dedicated Gunners did...

IdeaThink I just got a diorama idea!Idea

This was the practice on both sides (and the first flying job Von Richthofen had as a "Flying Uhlan") However, MvR was different from most Observers in recce aircraft in the fact that he was an exceptional marksman...

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Saturday, April 9, 2011 8:41 PM

Red Baron....the time I spent on those games. I think the first one was a marvel for its time - Damon Sly really pushed the envelope. I once did a career as Cecil Lewis and got 121 kills (required some emergency saves of course.) Always chose the fastest planes so I could run away - loved Spads. (I flew Aces High seriously for a couple years and was a P51 fan for the same reason.) The online Baron version was sweet too if you didn't mind a freeze a minute. 3D Baron was a terrific game but by that time Air Warrior cut it's prices and I became an addict. Haven't flown online since I started modeling: something had to give. I thank the Lord there were no video games when I was a kid or I would still be in my bedroom. I would have missed out on the baby boom masses of kids getting into trouble and modeling.

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    December 2010
  • From: Memphis TN
Posted by Heavens Eagle on Saturday, April 9, 2011 9:15 PM

Something I thought of while looking through the posts here and looking into the painting (or lack thereof) of various planes.  It struck me that many of the old WW1 planes just had plain uncolored linen and that it was quite translucent.

It seems to me that the best and easiest way to make that effect possible would be for the manufacturing companies to make the plane out of a translucent plastic.  I had a LIndberg model once that was somewhat clear but a little milky.  That plastic would be perfect for the light colored unpainted effects.  Just use black or dark brown to paint the framework on the translucent part and then paint a thin coat of linen color over that.  Seems to me that it would even be good for the colored planes with lozenge camo and such.

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:06 AM

Yeah, I still pull RB3D out now and again, EB... The campaign engine in that game has yet to be beat... The war goes on around you, generating missions and enemy flights 24/7... No other flight sim campaign ever came close...  I used to do the mission assigned, then go off and "lone Wolf" behind the Allied lines, and look for trouble...  Believe me, you would FIND it, too... More than once I had to run for my life back across the mud with a pack of SE-5s or SPADs chasing me, damaged, outta ammo and leaking oil...

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Sunday, April 10, 2011 7:16 PM

Begun work on the next figure, the second half of my group build entry, but also touched up the first one.

Bockscar - I took your comment as constructive criticism and have added the 5 o'clock shadow.  Originally it was there, but the face as a whole had too much contrast so a filter wash was applied.  It was too strong and it pretty much obliterated everything and had to go back and go through the steps again and somehow omited the stuble.  This time I used black weathering powder.

The prep work on the second figure is really becoming a bear.  Major seams on the front and back of both legs.  The rifle would not sit at all in both hands, so they have been chopped off and glued to the gun at the properly measured points.  Will probably have to build up the wrists so they fit into the sleeves as I have hollowed them out a bit.  Also performed  a lobotomy on his head as his cap will be replaced with a helmet.  These were made available during the latter half of 1916 and were given to those serving in trenches.

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Monday, April 11, 2011 5:16 PM

Jack the face look terrific.  The eyes are perfect.  Looks like he's staring right at you.

Marc  

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Monday, April 11, 2011 6:21 PM

Been a little busy with work... self employed so this is a good thing... but i did have time to get into the lab and come up a new molecule that will cure all future energy problems.

OK. so really... I started to make some turnbuckles last night and I decided my eyelets were too big.  So I stated fresh. I stared with and 18" piece of wire and stared twisting.   But instead of cutting each one I just kept twisting and made 50 in about 5 minutes.

And I came up with a way to make perfect conical shaped springs for the engine 2 at a time. I'll post a how-to later.

 

Marc  

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Monday, April 11, 2011 6:35 PM

Wow... Out-frakkin'-standin', Winger...  And people think I'm a scratch-built detail freak, lol.. Those'll look b*tchin' once installed..

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Smithers, BC, Canada
Posted by ruddratt on Monday, April 11, 2011 7:54 PM

Jack, yep, I'm likin' that a lot! The stubble really takes it to another level. Definitely has me looking forward to your next figure.

Marc, now  you come up with that idea for the springs! Ya know that I'm dyin' to see how you did those - they look awesome (and may just sway me enough towards the Roland as my next purchase! Wink ).

Mike

 "We have our own ammunition. It's filled with paint. When we fire it, it makes pretty pictures....scares the hell outta people."

 

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Connecticut, USA
Posted by Nachtflieger on Tuesday, April 12, 2011 3:26 AM

Jack: Your figure looks great! Very life-like.

Marc: Love the valve springs for the engine. They will look great on the model.

Nate

 

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Tuesday, April 12, 2011 10:06 AM

Jack - LOVE the figure! One day I'll work up the nerve to try my hand at one of those people-things...

Marc - Great job on those springs! I'm curious about your method...I'd imagine something like wrapping them around a tapered shape like an airbrush needle. Probably be a pretty cool technique for making the volute springs for VVSS bogies, too, if you wanted to go crazy.

It's been awhile since the last Pupdate, but progress is afoot!

First, the cowl. I originally tried rubber cement chipping and hated it. Then I tried sanding back to the silver and hated that too. So I wet sanded it back, and repainted. 

Weathered the pieces last night with rub-n-buff. Don't have any pics yet, though.

Second, the cockpit. I'm calling it done. 

I made the rookie mistake of installing the seat BEFORE attaching the harness (in this case, rope). Couldn't work between the rigging, and decided to say screw it rather than risk damaging stuff. Besides, lots of Pup pics show no evidence of any kind of restraints. Doesn't really show up in the photo, but the leather of the seat does have a sheen to it.

Third, the Le Rhone. 

Love the detailing on this engine, but I'm not a fan of the arrangement of the pieces. The molding of the tubes to the front cover is annoying, since it makes painting something of a pain. The tubes don't all link up with the cylinders, either, but those will be buried beneath the cowl, so I'm not sweating them. Wired it up last night (again, no pics yet), but the wiring is strangely all behind the engine, so it probably won't even be visible once the plane's done. Next, I'm thinking about hitting the entire engine with some Tamiya Smoke to dirty it up a bit, but it's mostly there.

I'm also discovering that the fuselage is going to be a slow go. On the inside, there's a grid of wood framing that has to be painted, but that's too thin to brush. I've masked and sprayed the veritcals, and in a day or two (once those cure), I'll swing back and mask and spray the horizontals. Then I'm going to have to paint some parts of the fuselage before I install the cockpit and join the sides. 

It's slow going, but it's going well...

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:59 PM

In my best  South Park chef voice... "Hello childrens."

Doogs yur killin' me.  Damn that looks good.

This link will take you to a toot for the springs.

http://wingnutmodels.com/Valve_Springs

Marc  

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Smithers, BC, Canada
Posted by ruddratt on Tuesday, April 12, 2011 7:26 PM

Doogs, man that's lookin' great! I'd be very proud of that office - it's first-rate! Looking forward to seeing how you finish the cowling too. All in all, excellent work so far on your first bipe. Yes

Marc, just checked out your tutorial on the springs - pure genius. I will definitely be trying that out on my next WnW kit (after the Albatros - engine's already finished on that one.).

Mike

 "We have our own ammunition. It's filled with paint. When we fire it, it makes pretty pictures....scares the hell outta people."

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: NYC, USA
Posted by waikong on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:12 AM

Doogs, your office looks really, really nice!

Marc, thanks for the tutorial on the springs - great idea and very clear instructions.

Well, dispite a bit of intimidation, I've started on a Dragon 1/48 DR.1. Not sure how much details I can incorporate into the thing - it's smaller than I expected. I would like to try the buckles though.

My website: http://waihobbies.wkhc.net

   

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Denton, TX
Posted by gnsnow on Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:26 AM

Hey guys - I've been lurking around this thread for a while now - I have a number of WWI models laying around the stash (one of my favorite subjects!) ...

Being a treadhead, I'd like to build a landship or 2, but 1/35 WWI armor kits tend to be pigs and I don't know if I have enough time/patience for 2 of them ... anyway, put me down for an A7V, Tauro 1/35, and possibly a Mk.IV Male, Emhar 1/35.

I also have a Pfalz D.IIIa, Eduard 1/48 (WIP) that I'm itching to finish. I don't have many aircraft under my belt and I've never built a pre-WWII plane before, so it may not be up to par with this crew, but I'm going to give it a go anyway.

"Artists who seek perfection in everything are those who can attain it in nothing."
   - Eugène Delacroix

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