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Spitfire GB

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  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Leonardtown, Maryland
Posted by Greenshirt on Friday, August 5, 2011 8:12 PM

Some additional info on that MSG/PRU Blue scheme is here.

Tim

On the bench (all 72nd):

  • 7 Spitfires & Seafires
  • Wellington III
  • N-9H Navy Jenny

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Friday, August 5, 2011 10:42 PM

Guess I'm still confused about PRU blue...

Assuming we're talking about the same PRU blue - the one I'm thinking of is the one applied to the photo recon Mossies, Spits, and Lightnings - I guess I just don't think of it as dark.

From what I understand the 352nd used PRU for its blue noses as well (though they went darker blue by the autumn of 44).

But I don't see how the color on Roy Sutherland's VII matches with it. To my eye at least, it looks a lot more down the road toward gloss sea blue or something.

As for the Azure Blue...honestly knowing that there's a pretty staggering degree of debate about it is good enough for me! I'll stand by the Gunze looking all wrong compared to anything I've seen anywhere. The MM might be too light and too blue, but it matches pretty well to the "Fargo Express" photo (the MM is darker and more saturated than the blue in the photo), and definitely registers "close enough" on my color radar!

After all this, though, I'm definitely tempted to tackle one of the different Spits. Maybe that new Airfix Mk.XII? I'm a sucker for clipped wings...

Yeah, I know the last is a modern restoration, but seems of a kind, brightness-wise, with the others.

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, August 5, 2011 11:31 PM

That Lightning is a fighter in OD/NG, not a F4/F5 in PRU Haze/Synthetic Haze. The recon F4/F5 had no guns. You can also see the color demarcation between the OD/NG on the booms.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Northern California
Posted by jeaton01 on Saturday, August 6, 2011 12:33 AM

My understanding is the synthetic haze was a two part paint, it took two coats to get it on the airplane, and that it lasted very poorly, changing colors.  I thought the RAF PRU Blue was a whole different animal.

John

To see build logs for my models:  http://goldeneramodel.com/mymodels/mymodels.html

 

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Saturday, August 6, 2011 2:31 AM

Okay - forget the F-5, my bad on that one. Based on every image I can pull of Mossie and Spitfire PRs, that particular Spit VII's underside seems way too dark to be PRU blue. All I'm sayin'.

In other news...got the prop painted up tonight.

...and finished blending the Azure Blue. 

Now going to let this gas out for a few days, then move on to middlestone!

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, August 6, 2011 3:26 AM

jeaton01

My understanding is the synthetic haze was a two part paint, it took two coats to get it on the airplane, and that it lasted very poorly, changing colors.  I thought the RAF PRU Blue was a whole different animal.

Yes Haze and Synthetic Haze were two step applications and a different critter than PRU Blue. Haze had poor durability, while the later Synthetic Haze held up very nicely. The color change on Haze was due to peculiar properties of the paint at high altitude reflecting the more intense sunlight.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Leonardtown, Maryland
Posted by Greenshirt on Saturday, August 6, 2011 9:14 AM

Doogs,

There's a danger in taking a model or profile and then being dogmatic about the accuracy of the colors used to render the scheme.  Unless you know precisely the paint the modeller started with, and how much weathering, fading, shadowing, etc, they did; it's impossible to do much other than guess.  As an example, the HS site showing Roy Sutherland's HF VII model doesn't say what paint he used to achieve his interpretation of the underside color.  Yes, it appears dark on my monitor, but that doesn't mean he didn't use MM PRU Blue, or Gunze PRU Blue or some other manufacturer or some other color.  (It doesn't look like glossy sea blue to me.)

This photo below, copied over from Britmodeller, seems to be the most commonly shared photo (only one I've found to download) that's of a high enough quality to show detail.  All the experts agree it's Sea Grey Medium over PRU Blue with black/white stripes and Sky codes.  Yet the photo clearly shows everything dark simply because of the film quality.

This next image is of a few recent builds to highlight the differences in colors.

The Hurricane I on the upper left is painted Sky Blue which is a very pale blue (Pollyscale 505248).  The Hurricane IIb just below and left of it is painted MM Azure before I learned it should be more purple.  The Spitfire Vb to the right and below is painted MM Azure with a few drops of deep red added.  It's very subtle in difference.  The Spitfire PR XI in the middle is overall PRU Blue (MM 2061) and the PR XIX below and right of it is in the High Altitude Scheme of MSG/PRU Blue (Humbrol 144).  As a comparison, because you mentioned Glossy Sea Blue, I stuck the Bearcat in the photo. 

The lighting is natural and indirect on a sunny day.

This next photo is of the two Azure birds overlapped for comparison:

Even on my monitor the difference is almost negligible.  In the plastic it's more obvious, but again very subtle.

While I didn't take a photo, the two PR Spitfires with different PRU Blues (MM and Humbrol) are identical in color, so this next photo is of the PR XI next to my color chips:

This came out dark, but I think I may have cast a shadow as I was taking the picture.  The point is that MM PRU Blue is nearly identical to the chip, for all intents to my eye, they are identical.  Of note, when I compare the two PR Spitfires, the PR XIX in the HAS actually appears to have a darker blue underside, probably due to the lighter upper surfaces.

Your Spitfire is looking very nice, and if I had the space, time and dollars I'd probably go for larger scales.  I'm building a collection of Spitfires that's already over 50, of which about half are completed.  So my scale of choice is 72nd.

Tim

On the bench (all 72nd):

  • 7 Spitfires & Seafires
  • Wellington III
  • N-9H Navy Jenny

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Saturday, August 6, 2011 12:00 PM

There's a danger in taking a model or profile and then being dogmatic about the accuracy of the colors used to render the scheme.

Agreed - and I'm really NOT being (or trying to be) dogmatic here. Just think that blue is exceptionally dark for PRU. Yes the light grey up top does do the optical illusion thing of making the color look darker, but it looks significantly darker than the PRU on your XIX. 


On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    August 2009
  • From: MOAB, UTAH
Posted by JOE RIX on Saturday, August 6, 2011 6:49 PM

Stikpusher - Glad to see you join the GB. Are you still working on your B-25 for the Bomber Stash GB?

Doogs - That is a really nice effect you achieved on your azure paint job. Appears that it was well worth the effort.

"Not only do I not know what's going on, I wouldn't know what to do about it if I did". George Carlin

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Leonardtown, Maryland
Posted by Greenshirt on Sunday, August 7, 2011 4:23 PM

Okay, I'm putting this one in the DONE column.  This is my FIRST group build!

Airfix Spitfire Mk IXc (new tooling), MA585/KH-B, 403 Sqn RCAF, Flown by P/O George Beurling, , RAF Headcorn, September 1943.

Mods to kit:

  • replaced kit "bench" with seat from the 3D-Kits IIa upgrade
  • added a control column from the 3D-Kits upgrade
  • replaced the 4-spoke wheels with 5-spoke
  • removed the upper wing wheel well bulges
  • rescribed the elevator hinge line for smaller elevator horn

Decals: aftermarket from IPMS Canada's Canadian Aces

Paint:

  • Dark Green - Humbrol 116
  • Ocean Grey - Humbrol 106
  • Sea Grey Medium - Humbrol 165
  • Sky - Humbrol 90
  • Yellow - Humbrol 24
  • Night - Mr Color 71
  • Burnt Iron - Model Master
  • Tire Black - Gunze
  • Interior Grey-Green - Tamiya XF-71

Weathering: water color wash, earthtone chalks

Sealer: 50/50 mix of Future & Acryl Clear Flat

Criticism and/or comments are always welcomed.

Tim

(edited to increase the picture size)

On the bench (all 72nd):

  • 7 Spitfires & Seafires
  • Wellington III
  • N-9H Navy Jenny

  • Member since
    February 2007
  • From: Brunswick, Ohio
Posted by Buckeye on Sunday, August 7, 2011 7:34 PM

Looks great Greenshirt!Yes  Build and paint look top notch.  Just wish the pictures were a little bigger.Wink

Mike

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, August 7, 2011 7:49 PM

JOE RIX

Stikpusher - Glad to see you join the GB. Are you still working on your B-25 for the Bomber Stash GB?

Joe,my B-25 took some damage in my recent move so its shelved for the time being. Front nosegear strut and stabilizers/tailplane broke off and I need to take figure out repair work before I touch it... half tempted to pitch this one and start over.

Greenshirt, beautiful little Spit there. Is Humbrol 116 a good choice for RAF Dark Green?

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Sunday, August 7, 2011 7:53 PM

Tim - well done! Also, love seeing RCAF birds!

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Rothesay, NB Canada
Posted by VanceCrozier on Monday, August 8, 2011 7:21 AM

DoogsATX

Tim - well done! Also, love seeing RCAF birds!

And Beurling was one of the best! Yes Yes for Buzz's bird.

On the bench: Airfix 1/72 Wildcat; Airfix 1/72 Vampire T11; Airfix 1/72 Fouga Magister

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Monday, August 8, 2011 7:52 AM

I was going to wait another day, but the humidity was nice and non-existent last night, so I masked the undersides and sprayed the first coat of middle stone. Presented in the awful color metering of the iPhone for now:

Since I've been having so many problems with paint dusting due to the heat, I've been using MM enamels to mostly hold it at bay. Still have some rough spots around the wing root, but nowhere as bad as I've been getting with Tamiya and Gunze stuff lately.

Going to do a polishing sand on some areas tonight before the lightening coat goes on. Also think I've finally cracked the camo template. More later.

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    February 2007
  • From: Brunswick, Ohio
Posted by Buckeye on Monday, August 8, 2011 9:11 AM

Looking great Doogs, can't wait to see how this one turns out.

Mike

  • Member since
    August 2009
  • From: MOAB, UTAH
Posted by JOE RIX on Monday, August 8, 2011 10:28 AM

Greenshirt - Very Very nice work indeed. I concur that some larger pics woujd be nice.

Doogs - Your Spit is coming along beautifully. I can relate to the humidity relief, we finally got a break from the moisture train. 3% humidity yesterday "Yeah it's hot , but it's a dry heat".

Stikpusher - Very sorry to hear about the B-25, I do hope you might be able to salvage her.

My Mk Vb is coming along. Wings and tail on just finishing up some sanding and polishing and getting ready to apply some primer. It is a real pleasure with this Tamiya kit as the fit is quite nice. I've only had to spot fill here and there with Mr. Surfacer 500.

                         Joe

"Not only do I not know what's going on, I wouldn't know what to do about it if I did". George Carlin

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Monday, August 8, 2011 11:21 AM

JOE RIX

Doogs - Your Spit is coming along beautifully. I can relate to the humidity relief, we finally got a break from the moisture train. 3% humidity yesterday "Yeah it's hot , but it's a dry heat".

3%!?!?! Indifferent

I need to move to Utah.

And here I was rejoicing that the humidity was a scant 35% last night. Saturday night, it was 65%, which, combined with 95 degrees at midnight...ugh.

Really need to try Lifecolor and Vallejo, see if they do better than Gunze and Tamiya in these conditions. So far, enamels are the only thing that's not just a dusting factory.

 

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    August 2009
  • From: MOAB, UTAH
Posted by JOE RIX on Monday, August 8, 2011 3:23 PM

DoogsATX

 JOE RIX:

Doogs - Your Spit is coming along beautifully. I can relate to the humidity relief, we finally got a break from the moisture train. 3% humidity yesterday "Yeah it's hot , but it's a dry heat".

 

3%!?!?! Indifferent

I need to move to Utah.

And here I was rejoicing that the humidity was a scant 35% last night. Saturday night, it was 65%, which, combined with 95 degrees at midnight...ugh.

Really need to try Lifecolor and Vallejo, see if they do better than Gunze and Tamiya in these conditions. So far, enamels are the only thing that's not just a dusting factory.

 

Yeah, 35% humidity here while it's in the nineties feels like a bayou to us,

 

"Not only do I not know what's going on, I wouldn't know what to do about it if I did". George Carlin

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Leonardtown, Maryland
Posted by Greenshirt on Monday, August 8, 2011 5:03 PM

Thanks for the comments. 

I reposted the pictures at 800 px (max size), but the forum shows them as "resized to fit the screen".  If you click on them they'll open in original size.

So, am I authorized to include the GB banner?Smile

Tim

On the bench (all 72nd):

  • 7 Spitfires & Seafires
  • Wellington III
  • N-9H Navy Jenny

  • Member since
    December 2009
Posted by ww2psycho on Monday, August 8, 2011 7:25 PM

Greenshirt

Thanks for the comments. 

I reposted the pictures at 800 px (max size), but the forum shows them as "resized to fit the screen".  If you click on them they'll open in original size.

So, am I authorized to include the GB banner?Smile

Tim

100% ok to use the banner! Sorry everyone for not being a better host, work gets in the way a lot, just not motived it always reply. I am checking every day!

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 2:16 AM

Part 2 of the middle stone adventure...

Started by spraying lightened middle stone all over the aircraft...

Then going over with multiple coats of straight middle stone, highly thinned (about 20% paint). Here's a pic about a third of the way through. You can see the starboard wing starting to blend.

Final results:

Now to let this cure for a few days, make paint masks for the dark earth, and figure out how the heck I want to apply it!

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    February 2007
  • From: Brunswick, Ohio
Posted by Buckeye on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 6:10 AM

Looking good.Yes

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Melbourne, Australia
Posted by darson on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 10:06 PM

Doogs the Spit is looking awesome!!

Now I know this might be a bit of artistic license but have you thought of spraying the ailerons in a slightly different shade to the rest of the wing, I've seen this technique used before and it looks very effective what don subtlety.

Cheers

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Austin, TX
Posted by DoogsATX on Tuesday, August 9, 2011 10:12 PM

darson

Doogs the Spit is looking awesome!!

Now I know this might be a bit of artistic license but have you thought of spraying the ailerons in a slightly different shade to the rest of the wing, I've seen this technique used before and it looks very effective what don subtlety.

Cheers

I'm planning on doing that with the ailerons, elevators and rudder, but probably after the camo is in place. Basically, my plan is to apply the dark earth with the same blend technique, pull the masks, then lay down a filter of very highly thinned dark earth (or maybe 50/50 MS/DE...haven't decided yet) to tie everything together. The control surfaces would likely get that plus a drop of white. 

On the Bench: 1/32 Trumpeter P-47 | 1/32 Hasegawa Bf 109G | 1/144 Eduard MiG-21MF x2

On Deck:  1/350 HMS Dreadnought

Blog/Completed Builds: doogsmodels.com

 

  • Member since
    April 2010
Posted by Theuns on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 2:09 AM

Hi all.

I started on my 1/72 Airfix Mk9 and this will be a VERY simple quick buils as there is almost no-detail in the "office" No worries as I recon the closed canopy will hide it anyway.

The dryfit of the parts looks to be good and I hope this will be a good build to gain some "speed" after my last two desasterous builds............must be a slump or something LOL!

Pix to follow

Theuns

PS. to Greenshirt - I have sent you a PM re. the Hurricain. :-)

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Rothesay, NB Canada
Posted by VanceCrozier on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:02 AM

DoogsATX

 

 darson:

 

Doogs the Spit is looking awesome!!

Now I know this might be a bit of artistic license but have you thought of spraying the ailerons in a slightly different shade to the rest of the wing, I've seen this technique used before and it looks very effective what don subtlety.

Cheers

 

 

I'm planning on doing that with the ailerons, elevators and rudder, but probably after the camo is in place. Basically, my plan is to apply the dark earth with the same blend technique, pull the masks, then lay down a filter of very highly thinned dark earth (or maybe 50/50 MS/DE...haven't decided yet) to tie everything together. The control surfaces would likely get that plus a drop of white. 

Yes Liking that plan! I suppose one benefit to the 1/32 birds is that you can layer on a little more paint that on a 1/72 kit, and really not have it look too thick.

On the bench: Airfix 1/72 Wildcat; Airfix 1/72 Vampire T11; Airfix 1/72 Fouga Magister

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Leonardtown, Maryland
Posted by Greenshirt on Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:23 AM

Hmm, I gotta try that.

Tim

On the bench (all 72nd):

  • 7 Spitfires & Seafires
  • Wellington III
  • N-9H Navy Jenny

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Leonardtown, Maryland
Posted by Greenshirt on Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:23 AM

stikpusher

Is Humbrol 116 a good choice for RAF Dark Green?

Sorry for the delay.  The short answer is "yes, Humbrol 116 is a good choice for RAF Dark Green".

There is plenty of debate over which dark green hobby paint most closely matches RAF Dark Green.  The IPMS Stockholm site (here) recommends Hu 116 for the WWII timeframe and Hu 163 for post war (after the High Speed Silver phase, IMHO).  That site is getting dated, but most folks swear by the cross reference as fairly accurate.  Tamiya XF-81 is supposed to be a pretty good match and some folks swear by any FS34079 match.  I've yet to use Tamiya XF-81 but it looks the same to my eye as Hu 116.  Hu 163 looks darker and bluer to my eye than Hu 116, but only ever so slightly and that could be due to its satin sheen versus the matte sheen of Hu 116.  FS34079 seems too olive when compared to Hu 116 and even more so next to Hu 163.

Hope this helps.

Tim

On the bench (all 72nd):

  • 7 Spitfires & Seafires
  • Wellington III
  • N-9H Navy Jenny

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:29 PM

Yes it does help! Thank you. I always thought Humbrol 30 was way toolight and bright for RAF Dark Green, whch it is purported to be. It may be a decent choice for the DuPont color on Lend Lease P-40s, or RAAF Foliage Green but not much else for WWII RAF. I do like the IPMS Stockholm site and visit there regularly. I agree about 116 vs 34079 for USAF uses. It is a good match for the US Army MERDC camo or solid green stuff I saw during the 80s. On ground gear it lost that olive tone rapidly and faded with a blueish hue usually.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

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