Spitfire GB

Doogs the Spit is looking awesome!!

Now I know this might be a bit of artistic license but have you thought of spraying the ailerons in a slightly different shade to the rest of the wing, I've seen this technique used before and it looks very effective what don subtlety.

Cheers

Looking good.

Part 2 of the middle stone adventure...

Started by spraying lightened middle stone all over the aircraft...

Then going over with multiple coats of straight middle stone, highly thinned (about 20% paint). Here's a pic about a third of the way through. You can see the starboard wing starting to blend.

Final results:

Now to let this cure for a few days, make paint masks for the dark earth, and figure out how the heck I want to apply it!

Greenshirt

Thanks for the comments. 

I reposted the pictures at 800 px (max size), but the forum shows them as "resized to fit the screen".  If you click on them they'll open in original size.

So, am I authorized to include the GB banner?

Tim

100% ok to use the banner! Sorry everyone for not being a better host, work gets in the way a lot, just not motived it always reply. I am checking every day!

Thanks for the comments. 

I reposted the pictures at 800 px (max size), but the forum shows them as "resized to fit the screen".  If you click on them they'll open in original size.

So, am I authorized to include the GB banner?

Tim

DoogsATX

JOE RIX:

Doogs - Your Spit is coming along beautifully. I can relate to the humidity relief, we finally got a break from the moisture train. 3% humidity yesterday "Yeah it's hot , but it's a dry heat".

 

3%!?!?!

I need to move to Utah.

And here I was rejoicing that the humidity was a scant 35% last night. Saturday night, it was 65%, which, combined with 95 degrees at midnight...ugh.

Really need to try Lifecolor and Vallejo, see if they do better than Gunze and Tamiya in these conditions. So far, enamels are the only thing that's not just a dusting factory.

 

Yeah, 35% humidity here while it's in the nineties feels like a bayou to us,

JOE RIX

Doogs - Your Spit is coming along beautifully. I can relate to the humidity relief, we finally got a break from the moisture train. 3% humidity yesterday "Yeah it's hot , but it's a dry heat".

3%!?!?!

I need to move to Utah.

And here I was rejoicing that the humidity was a scant 35% last night. Saturday night, it was 65%, which, combined with 95 degrees at midnight...ugh.

Really need to try Lifecolor and Vallejo, see if they do better than Gunze and Tamiya in these conditions. So far, enamels are the only thing that's not just a dusting factory.

Greenshirt - Very Very nice work indeed. I concur that some larger pics woujd be nice.

Doogs - Your Spit is coming along beautifully. I can relate to the humidity relief, we finally got a break from the moisture train. 3% humidity yesterday "Yeah it's hot , but it's a dry heat".

Stikpusher - Very sorry to hear about the B-25, I do hope you might be able to salvage her.

My Mk Vb is coming along. Wings and tail on just finishing up some sanding and polishing and getting ready to apply some primer. It is a real pleasure with this Tamiya kit as the fit is quite nice. I've only had to spot fill here and there with Mr. Surfacer 500.

                         Joe

Looking great Doogs, can't wait to see how this one turns out.

Mike

I was going to wait another day, but the humidity was nice and non-existent last night, so I masked the undersides and sprayed the first coat of middle stone. Presented in the awful color metering of the iPhone for now:

Since I've been having so many problems with paint dusting due to the heat, I've been using MM enamels to mostly hold it at bay. Still have some rough spots around the wing root, but nowhere as bad as I've been getting with Tamiya and Gunze stuff lately.

Going to do a polishing sand on some areas tonight before the lightening coat goes on. Also think I've finally cracked the camo template. More later.

DoogsATX

Tim - well done! Also, love seeing RCAF birds!

And Beurling was one of the best! for Buzz's bird.

Tim - well done! Also, love seeing RCAF birds!

JOE RIX

Stikpusher - Glad to see you join the GB. Are you still working on your B-25 for the Bomber Stash GB?

Joe,my B-25 took some damage in my recent move so its shelved for the time being. Front nosegear strut and stabilizers/tailplane broke off and I need to take figure out repair work before I touch it... half tempted to pitch this one and start over.

Greenshirt, beautiful little Spit there. Is Humbrol 116 a good choice for RAF Dark Green?

Looks great Greenshirt!  Build and paint look top notch.  Just wish the pictures were a little bigger.

Mike

Okay, I'm putting this one in the DONE column.  This is my FIRST group build!

Airfix Spitfire Mk IXc (new tooling), MA585/KH-B, 403 Sqn RCAF, Flown by P/O George Beurling, , RAF Headcorn, September 1943.

Mods to kit:

• replaced kit "bench" with seat from the 3D-Kits IIa upgrade
• added a control column from the 3D-Kits upgrade
• replaced the 4-spoke wheels with 5-spoke
• removed the upper wing wheel well bulges
• rescribed the elevator hinge line for smaller elevator horn

Decals: aftermarket from IPMS Canada's Canadian Aces

Paint:

• Dark Green - Humbrol 116
• Ocean Grey - Humbrol 106
• Sea Grey Medium - Humbrol 165
• Sky - Humbrol 90
• Yellow - Humbrol 24
• Night - Mr Color 71
• Burnt Iron - Model Master
• Tire Black - Gunze
• Interior Grey-Green - Tamiya XF-71

Weathering: water color wash, earthtone chalks

Sealer: 50/50 mix of Future & Acryl Clear Flat

Criticism and/or comments are always welcomed.

Tim

(edited to increase the picture size)

Stikpusher - Glad to see you join the GB. Are you still working on your B-25 for the Bomber Stash GB?

Doogs - That is a really nice effect you achieved on your azure paint job. Appears that it was well worth the effort.

There's a danger in taking a model or profile and then being dogmatic about the accuracy of the colors used to render the scheme.

Agreed - and I'm really NOT being (or trying to be) dogmatic here. Just think that blue is exceptionally dark for PRU. Yes the light grey up top does do the optical illusion thing of making the color look darker, but it looks significantly darker than the PRU on your XIX. 

Doogs,

There's a danger in taking a model or profile and then being dogmatic about the accuracy of the colors used to render the scheme.  Unless you know precisely the paint the modeller started with, and how much weathering, fading, shadowing, etc, they did; it's impossible to do much other than guess.  As an example, the HS site showing Roy Sutherland's HF VII model doesn't say what paint he used to achieve his interpretation of the underside color.  Yes, it appears dark on my monitor, but that doesn't mean he didn't use MM PRU Blue, or Gunze PRU Blue or some other manufacturer or some other color.  (It doesn't look like glossy sea blue to me.)

This photo below, copied over from Britmodeller, seems to be the most commonly shared photo (only one I've found to download) that's of a high enough quality to show detail.  All the experts agree it's Sea Grey Medium over PRU Blue with black/white stripes and Sky codes.  Yet the photo clearly shows everything dark simply because of the film quality.

This next image is of a few recent builds to highlight the differences in colors.

The Hurricane I on the upper left is painted Sky Blue which is a very pale blue (Pollyscale 505248).  The Hurricane IIb just below and left of it is painted MM Azure before I learned it should be more purple.  The Spitfire Vb to the right and below is painted MM Azure with a few drops of deep red added.  It's very subtle in difference.  The Spitfire PR XI in the middle is overall PRU Blue (MM 2061) and the PR XIX below and right of it is in the High Altitude Scheme of MSG/PRU Blue (Humbrol 144).  As a comparison, because you mentioned Glossy Sea Blue, I stuck the Bearcat in the photo. 

The lighting is natural and indirect on a sunny day.

This next photo is of the two Azure birds overlapped for comparison:

Even on my monitor the difference is almost negligible.  In the plastic it's more obvious, but again very subtle.

While I didn't take a photo, the two PR Spitfires with different PRU Blues (MM and Humbrol) are identical in color, so this next photo is of the PR XI next to my color chips:

This came out dark, but I think I may have cast a shadow as I was taking the picture.  The point is that MM PRU Blue is nearly identical to the chip, for all intents to my eye, they are identical.  Of note, when I compare the two PR Spitfires, the PR XIX in the HAS actually appears to have a darker blue underside, probably due to the lighter upper surfaces.

Your Spitfire is looking very nice, and if I had the space, time and dollars I'd probably go for larger scales.  I'm building a collection of Spitfires that's already over 50, of which about half are completed.  So my scale of choice is 72nd.

Tim

jeaton01

My understanding is the synthetic haze was a two part paint, it took two coats to get it on the airplane, and that it lasted very poorly, changing colors.  I thought the RAF PRU Blue was a whole different animal.

Yes Haze and Synthetic Haze were two step applications and a different critter than PRU Blue. Haze had poor durability, while the later Synthetic Haze held up very nicely. The color change on Haze was due to peculiar properties of the paint at high altitude reflecting the more intense sunlight.

Okay - forget the F-5, my bad on that one. Based on every image I can pull of Mossie and Spitfire PRs, that particular Spit VII's underside seems way too dark to be PRU blue. All I'm sayin'.

In other news...got the prop painted up tonight.

...and finished blending the Azure Blue. 

Now going to let this gas out for a few days, then move on to middlestone!

My understanding is the synthetic haze was a two part paint, it took two coats to get it on the airplane, and that it lasted very poorly, changing colors.  I thought the RAF PRU Blue was a whole different animal.

That Lightning is a fighter in OD/NG, not a F4/F5 in PRU Haze/Synthetic Haze. The recon F4/F5 had no guns. You can also see the color demarcation between the OD/NG on the booms.

Guess I'm still confused about PRU blue...

Assuming we're talking about the same PRU blue - the one I'm thinking of is the one applied to the photo recon Mossies, Spits, and Lightnings - I guess I just don't think of it as dark.

From what I understand the 352nd used PRU for its blue noses as well (though they went darker blue by the autumn of 44).

But I don't see how the color on Roy Sutherland's VII matches with it. To my eye at least, it looks a lot more down the road toward gloss sea blue or something.

As for the Azure Blue...honestly knowing that there's a pretty staggering degree of debate about it is good enough for me! I'll stand by the Gunze looking all wrong compared to anything I've seen anywhere. The MM might be too light and too blue, but it matches pretty well to the "Fargo Express" photo (the MM is darker and more saturated than the blue in the photo), and definitely registers "close enough" on my color radar!

After all this, though, I'm definitely tempted to tackle one of the different Spits. Maybe that new Airfix Mk.XII? I'm a sucker for clipped wings...

Yeah, I know the last is a modern restoration, but seems of a kind, brightness-wise, with the others.

Some additional info on that MSG/PRU Blue scheme is here.

Tim

Well this past few posts has been most enlightening! So Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue and not Azure Blue for the Mk VII. No worries from me. The instructions specified Azure Blue, but PRU actually makes more sense to me.  

Doogs,

Profiles are tough as references.  I've lost skin because I was too faithful...so I always caveat and focus more on what's close to the "standards" -- paint chips matched to the original.  If the tech manuals say it was MSG/PRU then I find a paint close to those two colors in my chip set.

Old photos are good as references, but as you say, too many variables when shared across the net.  Plus, depending on distance and lighting there is that bane of my modelling called "scale effect".  I know it exists but have never mastered achieving it.  The one of Mollard's plane also appears to have had a yellow filter on the camera.  I base that solely on my own experience with filters and how the photo ends up looking, not on any formal training. 

PRU Blue is darkish, but it lightens up (scale effect) quite readily.  As a blue, my opinion, it's also susceptable to fading.  RAF/FAA blues tended to fade, but with simple water and a gentle wipe down darkened back up to the original.  Because the paints were supposed to be smooth (Type S) one indicator, just that, is the "flatness" the finish appears to have in the photo.  I wouldn't be dogmatic about it though.  If you want to match how a subject looks in a photo I say that's an outstanding objective.

My Azure chip at home is about the same shade as MM, but I can defintely see some purple.  I actually added a few drops of deep red (Testors square bottle) to it until it matched the chip.  It darkened slightly and had that slight purple cast.  The purple cast is subtle and the experts over on BritModeller with access to real panels in original paint were the guys debating the pros/cons of individual paints, MM didn't make the cut as too light and too blue, IIRC one thread made it seem closer to Deep Sky Blue which is darker than Sky Blue (according to some Sky Blue is actually nearly white with a slight blue cast).  So I feel (very subjective) I now have an Azure that close enough to my eye.

Fascinating stuff, esoteric and ultimately what matters is what "looks right" to the modeller.  Your mileage may vary as they say.

Tim

Thanks Tim! I can actually see a darker color working in the desert - that kind of environment does weird things with light.

Regarding the Gunze...it's really hard to capture exact color qualities across three different color spaces (my camera, my computer, your computer), but it has a very violet, almost lavender color to it. The chip in that thread you posted...

actually doesn't seem very far off from where the MM enamel lands when it's sprayed. Almost a "cornflower blue". 

And the one reference pic I've got of Molland's plane shows a distinctly bluer and lighter shade than the Gunze paint. Accounting for the harsh lighting and no doubt not 100% accurate color processing, I think choosing between the two I'd go with the MM.

On the high altitude, I'm curious. Is it possible that that particular Spit is 1) inaccurate or 2) representing a craft that didn't use the PRU blue? I've always thought PRU was much lighter...

And other VII profiles tend to bear that out. 

Here's the one I was thinking of that's the two-tone gray. Unless that's the darkest azure I've ever seen...

http://www.hyperscale.com/2010/galleries/spitfirevii32tamiyars_1.htm

Doogs,

The High Altitude Scheme is actually Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue.  That's why the lower surface blue is so dark.

While I too work with what "looks right" in the final color scheme, I try to start out with an accurate color.  Azure actually has a purple cast to it, so should look purple-ish blue.  And it was a bit dark.  One reason Sky Blue was not finally sanctioned in the desert (although used on some aircraft) was because it wasn't ark enough.  An extensive discussion over on BritModeller if you're curious, focused on finding an accurate Azure Blue out of the bottle is here.

Don't skewer me -- it's your model and if looks right to you, it IS right.

Tim

DoogsATX

 

Yeah, I meant jokes about pressure as in...it's pressurized...

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh..the Mk VII....

 

Here's the one I was thinking of that's the two-tone gray. Unless that's the darkest azure I've ever seen...

http://www.hyperscale.com/2010/galleries/spitfirevii32tamiyars_1.htm

I suspect that the dark appearance of the Azure there has something to do with the pure white background....

 

BTW, that is some very intricate work on the lower surface.... no wonder your hand was cramping...

stikpusher

No jokes... just finished up another  build tonite, and another a couple weeks ago, so I have a bit more room on the "to do" shelves. Yes I was planning on doing the two tone high altitiude scheme the Mk VIIs wore. Sea Grey Medium over Azure Blue.

Against my common sense meant jumping in on another GB when I really shouldnt, but this Spit has been calling to me over the past week...

Yeah, I meant jokes about pressure as in...it's pressurized...

Here's the one I was thinking of that's the two-tone gray. Unless that's the darkest azure I've ever seen...

http://www.hyperscale.com/2010/galleries/spitfirevii32tamiyars_1.htm

In other news, armed with non-purple Azure Blue, I got a solid start on the underside tonight. Decided not to preshade, and instead use the layer blend technique. Here's the base coat:

and the lightening work. Had to add a lot more white than I'd anticipated to make a noticeable difference. Also, my hand is now cramped like you wouldn't believe!

Tomorrow I'll add the thinned base color back on top to blend it all together, then it'll probably get to cure for a few days before I move on to the top.