Bish , yes , painting it overall Pz. gray would work but know that i know there was a Pz. gray and brown camo scheme that is the way i will go .

Ye, in plan on painting my German kits from this period in the two colours, despite what the instructions say. Maybe if enough kits get painted this way, we can start a new trend.

I'm all for doing something new ! Sometimes i get carried away with my camo and go more for the beauty of it and not the accuracy .  WBill knows what i'm talking about .

Great reference photo, Bill. It joined my growing research on this Panzer II.

I would think that since the Battle of France only lasted 6 weeks, their would not be a lot of weathering, like chiping and rusting. Most of the vehicles would have been refitted after the Polish campaign, so their paint jobs would be newer. 

There probably was a lot of mud, since the battle was held in May-June and in the soggy area Northern France and Belgium.

What do you guys think?

Sounds reasonable . Not sure about how many vehicles where repainted .

The Polish campaign was over in early October 1939, so your looking at about 6 months to refit and move their army to the west. The Panzer II were fitted with add-on armor in this time frame.

I am with you on the two color (grey / brown) scheme.....   I'll be looking into that as well.

Thanks!

Agree with all of the confusion there is on the camo.  Depending on which reference used (most being all Pz gray) one could go either way.  I tend to believe they were done in the brown on gray as WBILL has stated.  Two of Dragons new kits show this camo on their art work.

CARL - From my reading and few pics I have, believe Rommel's GHOST DIVISION's markings were large red numbers with narrow whit outline and the crosses were the skinny ones.  As Bish had said the solid white or yellow cross was seen in the Polish campaign not France.  You can see this marking on the pic above on the bottom tank.  This is the Ghost Division

Not sure if the same markings were applied on the PZ I's but would imagine they would be for all of Rommel's tanks.

tigerman

What's the official swatch for the brown and what acrylics can you find it in?

Eric, here's the "official" swatches as reproduced in Panzer Tracts 1-1. The dark brown is very dark, not sure what would be a good match in acrylics, I believe Testors recreates the Schokoladenbraun in their Panzer '43 set in acrylics, you might start there.

Tim, campaign was short indeed at about 6 weeks. Most photos support a dusty appearance from road marches and rapid advances so wear and tear would be kept to a minimum from that perspective. This was a blitzkrieg after all!

As to the question of re-painting between the Polish and French campaigns, that seems to have happened only in regards to changed vehicle markings (the large white crosses proved to be excellent aiming points for AT gunners) or for vehicles still in the pre-1938 3-tone schemes that hadn't gotten the new scheme prior to Sept '39. More new vehicles were also produced and assigned to the various units in that time frame so you had a lot of brand-new gear (Pz IIIs, IVs, 38(t)s in particular) also entering service.  Any vehicles receiving a re-fit or up-armoring would have automatically been repainted prior to being accepted at the depots for consignment to the combat units as a matter of course.

thinking of doing this tank here

this is a good website for all those doing the Pz.II

http://hosted.wargamer.com/Panzer/panzer2a.htm

bill, i did think it was Pz Tracts 1-1 that this was in. What year was yours published, mine is from 2002 and it doesn't have this, or mention anything about paint schemes. And i only bought it a couple of months ago.

Shellback

Eric here"s my submission for this G.B., Italeri Panzer kpfw 1b in 1/35th . the vehicle i'll build served with the 1st Pz battalion ,25th Pz regiment ,7th Pz division . Commanded by Rommel , western France , june .1940 .

Hiya Carl :  )

man I knew you were in the build, but, until one picks his kit, ya just kinda wonder..... you have picked a beaut!

I am thrilled to be in a build with so many guys I know, and all great modelers..... and bro', I am so pleased we are both the build .. although on different sides of the fence !   I can't wait for this to start so we can begin the WIP pictures !

Shell my ole' buddy, this will be fun!

tread

I just received a cool book from Amazon.com...... it is called 'Panzer IV vs Char B1 bis, France 1940'

by Steven J. Zaloga.... I just literally started reading it, but it offers comparisons on every level between the 2 heaviest hitters of the short 6 week war.... you Axis guys may not believe this, and I had to read it twice, but the CharB1 bis was , at the time , consider impenetrable !... the Tiger I of it's day.. WOW

back to some good reading!

tread

Bish

To be honest i still find it all very confuseing. This period and the late war period, say the last 6 months of the war, can be a real headache. But, if anyone just wanted to say to hell with it and paint their kits Pz Grey, i don't think anyone would get to upset. But at least you have the info to make up your own mind.

Wonder how many of the judges would catch this? To be honest I never see modelers use the correct two-tone at shows.

Would it be Signalbraun or RAL 8002 as described by Tony Greenland? I thought Schokoladenbraun was late war. 

Eric my references calls for #45.  I use MM Schokoladenbraun RAL 8017.  Signalbraun RAL 8002 is not dark enough IMO.  MM does make RAL 8017 in acrylic.

PANZERWAFFE

Eric my references calls for #45.  I use MM Schokoladenbraun RAL 8017.  Signalbraun RAL 8002 is not dark enough IMO.  MM does make RAL 8017 in acrylic.

Yes I used that on my Jagdtiger, was that incorrect then? Color plates I've seen of them look more chocolate -brown then red-brown. Sorry, going serious OT here.

So what do you all think the best way to paint this 2 tone camo?

I am thinking of using the dunkelbraun as a primer, then free-handing a little lighter dunkelgrau over 2/3 of the tank. Also, it look like they did 1/3 of the road wheels in dunkelbraun.

iraqiwildman

The Polish campaign was over in early October 1939, so your looking at about 6 months to refit and move their army to the west. The Panzer II were fitted with add-on armor in this time frame.

Your right .Post has been corrected .

Rob thanks for the pics . I found those DML kits also . Where did they find their reference material at ?I know you cant answer that question , i just wonder. The decals with the kit are out of register so i'll go thru my spares . your another of the great assets here !

Tread , yes its good to be building with you after all of these years ! Corn posters will survive ! 

Here's the decals that came with Pz. 1.

Wbill and Rob , after looking at your reference pics it looks like the braun is sprayed on freehand and not hard edged , correct ?

Shellback

Wbill and Rob , after looking at your reference pics it looks like the braun is sprayed on freehand and not hard edged , correct ?

That'd be my guess as well.

If you want some other french materials, this compagny is for you :

http://www.blitz-kit.com/

for exemple :

Renault D1 :

http://www.blitz-kit.com/fiche-produit.php?ref=35FS%201013&cat=vehicule

Laffly S15 :

http://www.blitz-kit.com/fiche-produit.php?ref=35FS%201008&cat=vehicule

Bish,

Sorry for the typo, it's in PT 1-2, not 1-1.

Carl, Tim

Camo was soft-edge and applied over the Dunkelgrau as a base color. Road wheels and lower hulls were included in the paint scheme (makes sense when you consider the overal visual profile of small vehicles like Pz I or II). It's much easier IMHO to apply the dark brown camo as a disruptive pattern over the Pz Gray than the other way around since you only need 1/3 of the brown vs. the gray. All depends I guess on how efficient you want to be with the paint colors.

Eric, you're right about the Schokoladenbraun being desnigated by Testors as a later war color, however I found it to be a near-perfect match to the No. 45 swatch from PT 1-2 and so adapted it to that purpose. As to your question about the "correct" use of the darker chocolate-brown color after '43, that's a question of interpretation of what the actual "rot braun" ought to be. Since the paint was issued in tubes and thinned with all manner of thinning agents and applied by the crews (before institution of factory schemes in Oct '44) in the field, lots of variation is possible and modelers tend to settle on their own preferred shade for the rot-braun. I myself use a mix of 50-50 MM enamel Leather/Military Brown for my shade of choice for example.

Tread,

We tend to think of the French army as weak and easily beaten due to stereotype bias when the opposite was true particularly as it relates to the quality of their armor. The Char B1 was indeed a fearsome opponent and very tough to knock out at range using the German 3.7cm guns or short-barrel 7.5cm on the Pz IVs (remember the Pz IVs at the time were designed and armed as infantry-support tanks, not MBTs). Speculation abounds as to what might have turned out had the French concentrated their armor and used it more effectively but that's the way of hindsight!

Thanks bill. That one is already on my to buy list for next month.

Even though i am not able to take part in this GB, i am really looking forward to watching from the side lines. It will be great to see how you guys go about painting this German scheme which has largely been ignored.

Vit13: Thanks for the link to Blitz, some really nice stuff there! I am so tempted now by the 'systeme saute mines' which I'm assuming is a mine clearing plow for the Hotchkiss light tank.

Also I've been looking at MK35's website which has a large number of French figures including civilians, accessories and buildings.

Gee guys, you've got me so ready to go I can hardly wait.

Cliff