When I went we didn't paint anything, the wagon stayed in the green black scheme. But we were not their for the invasion itself. The guys we had taken over from did have their in sand colour. I don't know why I were not painted as we had more time to prepare than the others. I guess its because we were not there to do the war fighting but the peacekeeping.

that's an interesting question on painting. my thoughts lean toward 1. is this factory or "aftermarket " /in theater painting? do i have plenty of paint and time? and i look for areas for artistic license. i usually, on my don't paint camo on anything under the fenders or road wheels but i will paint tire hubs. on my M60A2s all the tools were secured in sponson boxes but i noticed the STRYKER had the tools on the outside and the LAV-III has the tools on the outside covered by a plate.

Hey Bish, when you were in the Gulf, did you guys repaint to tools to be in Sand color also, or still keep the tools in the green/black?

We used to paint the wooden handles on ours as well. They were done green and we painted the metal work black. Of course it didn't last very long.

we painted our pioneer tools a color simialr to the tank or jeep. i usually do mine wood and metal on models just for some contrast unless it is too much contrast then i dab some paint on to tone it down and it looks like the picture.

Yes, the tie down straps use to be leather, but at some point they were replaced with canvas webbing.

I agree, Shermans received by Britain would remain in their original factory olive paint.   The S.C.C.15 replaced S.C.C. 2 ( described as rich dark brown with a hint of ‘khaki’) and was intended  for repaints due to  overhauls, but more importantly for their own home grown vehicles such as Cromwells and Churchills.   There is still debate over how widespread it's use was in time for Normandy.

This is site that has Mike Starmer's research on British colours from all theaters:

www.mafva.net/.../Starmer%20camo.htm

regards,

Jack

Jack, that is a GREAT photo, and those color chips are helpful as well! I also noticed the wear on the pioneer tools, and it also is great to see the stowage tie down straps. They look to me to be canvas webbing, very similar to the type in use during my service time.

I am in agreement with Pyr in that the Sherman there is most likely OD No.9, as it is not a Firefly and has not had to be rebuilt and repainted due to such work.

Just some great details to be seen there!!!

American-made Shermans were delivered to our allies painted in "Lustreless olive drab enamel" (Corps of Engineers Color no.9)  For further info see: http://olive-drab.com/od_mvg_odpaint.php

 WC-54 3/4 ton ambulances at WW II Air Corps Base, Sudbury U.K. showing different shades of what should be Lustreless Olive Drab.

Bish, well SCC15 is in a way OD, just the British version.  I've yet to see an actual paint chip comparison photo on the net, but over at missing-lynx,  someone has posted a side by side view.   He based it on Mike Starmer's research (who has had access to paint chips). The middle sample is the British mix.

stik - thanks for reminding me, yes definitely the welded piece over the hull MG.  There is also the rear storage bin.   Though not exclusive to Fireflies, it was a British addition that would require painting.  Then there is the deep wading trunks, these too were fabricated by British  as the Americans had a different design.

I've no clue what shade of olive or green this photo is presenting, but what's interesting is the wood handle of the shovel looks to have worn paint.

regards,

Jack

Yeah, I'd never noticed the difference between US and UK OD green.

The front of the hull would be modified on a Firefly with the adding of the armored plug in place of the bow MG. And the addition of the barrel rest/travel lock on the upper rear hull. I wonder of both of those additions would be sufficent to rate repainting the hull? Or perhaps only those areas.

Now I didn't know that. I had always assume our vehicles were painted OD. So if I have that right, it would be possible for a Firefly to have an OD hull and an S.C.C. 15 turret.

Bish and Gamera -  thank you.

In April of 1944, Britain issued S.C.C. 15 as a colour equivalent of US Olive Drab.  A very close match, only after fading was a difference readily detected, as it would become more green.  It is unknown whether Fireflies were completely repainted in this new paint, as orders specified there was to be no wasteage if the lone  purpose was to make all vehicle colours uniform.    There certainly would be a fair amount on the turret due to modifications with the new 17-pdr.  Perhaps the hull, depending on how much work was required for the seabourne invasion.

I used one of Mike Starmer's suggested colour mixes for Tamiya paints:

5 parts XF81

1 part XF58

1 part XF71

For the first spray coat, I tried something different by adding close to 50% red to the mixture, reason being two fold.  First, this would help in conveying an olive hue.  Second was sort of a test on the colour wheel theory dealing with complimentary colours.  The compliment of green is red, and mixing the two resulted in what looks close to a hull red.  This deeper shade would be useful in shadow areas while at the same time still remain vibrant.

Second, to introduce the S.C.C.15 mix onto the model, I decided to add a few drops of red into the airbrush cup.  With the smaller scale build, it was difficult to retain some semblance of the first layer without compromising coverage in non-shadow areas. (pic #2)

Finally, the original mix was applied, concentrating more on the turret.  You have to look closely, but you can see a bit more of a green tone in pic#3.

regards,

Jack

Jack: Looks good, I've tried the same thing, I think it takes some practice to get it right. Mine looked pretty horrible.

I'd like to get a Pz IV built as well Tony. I have 2 Flak wagons on Pz IV hulls, but no tanks. O well, should be able to fit it in next year some time. The Tiffie is coming along nicely.

Jack, that's looking nice. Some real effort going into this.

Tony - that Tiffie is looking rather fine there, appears we are both sort of at the same stage of our respective builds.

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After spraying on some diluted surfacer, the cast look of the turret and transmission seemed to be all but lost.  So I brushed on some  surfacer, and while still wet tried the stipple method with an old synthetic brush.   The result resembled more 'sand in paint' finish, so tried some foam from a sanding stick (that's the blue thingy in the pic.)

It looked better, but after all surfaces were done, I brushed it over with lacquer thinner, followed with some gentle sanding.  With these enlarged views, some clean up on other surfaces is required.

regards,

Jack

Tony: She looks good! Gosh I HATE spraying white on anything. Good catch with the leading edges- much easier to fix now than with the invasion strips and camo applied.

I'm always happy to see a Pz IV Bish, I guess I'll have to wait for yours. The Panther will be good too though.

I sprayed the white for the invasion stripes on my Tiffie, but then decided that the leading edges were not up to scratch. Fixed it but broke one of the cannons, which I will fix later on.

Cheers

Tony

Well, my Auf J is defiantly out, I have a dio planned for it and don't really want to change the markings or anything else. And closer study of a photo I have of the tank clear shows it is later in the year.

But this will be a good chance for me to build a proper panther and the Pz IV will fit another GB for next year.

Tony: Nice work there on the Typhoon, I love that aircraft!

Jack: Well, considering half the stuff we do like pre-shading and colour modulation are artistic license I wouldn't worry about it too much!

Jibber & Bish: Hope you guys get those straightened out - they sound like really cool panzers- hate to see them disqualified.

Jack, thanks for the info. But I have specific markings in mind for that kit. I will get an H at some point. I was checking through my builds and I have a couple of other options. I think I am going to go with a Panther in 9th SS markings. I checked last night and they just made it to the front in time for the GB.

Bish I'm ok with it, thanks.

Bish

jibber, slight problem.I was just doing some checking as I noticed that kit is a late production Ausf J. I hadn't realised before, but the Ausf J didn't enter production until June 44, so could not have been in Normandy in time. And the late production that your kit represents was even later than June.

It also means that by build is no good for this GB. What through me off was that the markings come from a Bison set for Pz's in the Bocage. And I have found a pic of my build which is clearly late in the year. That will teach me for trusting decals.

So now I am not even sure what I will build. Going to have to do some checking.

If you're up to some scratch building, can always backdate to the "H" model.  Definitely check your kit box, you might actually have the pieces there if they used sprues from an original Panzer IVH kit issue.

I'm kind of bummed myself.  The specific Firefly I had chosen  was due to it's nickname on the hull, but have discovered none of the colourful markings are present (Maple Leaf emblem and the AOS sign). The vehicle was so new to the Sherbrooke Fusilier regiment, that they hadn't had time to put them on.   Funny that, to go ahead and  apply these markings anyways would then be considered artistic license.

regards,

Jack

jibber, slight problem.I was just doing some checking as I noticed that kit is a late production Ausf J. I hadn't realised before, but the Ausf J didn't enter production until June 44, so could not have been in Normandy in time. And the late production that your kit represents was even later than June.

It also means that by build is no good for this GB. What through me off was that the markings come from a Bison set for Pz's in the Bocage. And I have found a pic of my build which is clearly late in the year. That will teach me for trusting decals.

So now I am not even sure what I will build. Going to have to do some checking.

jgeratic

Greg, your turret cheek looks spot on, is the red a primer or putty colour?

Thank you, Jack.  I used two putties to build up the cheek armor.  The red is Testors Red Putty which they no long market - I believe it's an auto putty. The grey is Tamiya modelling putty.

The putties were used over Evergreen strip and used to fill gaps and to shape the cast in armor.

No problem, will do. Out of interest, what's the turret number with that kit. Are you planning on doing any figures with it, as that unit had some rather unique uniforms.

Tony, that's looking really nice. Good to see it back.

Bish if you would be so kind as to pencil me in for Dragon's kit #6080, Panzer IV, Ausf. J of the 12th SS Division. That clears a spot on the shelf. Thanks

That turret looks great Greg.

I've finally got back to my 1/72 Tiffie. Here is a photo with primer on.

Cheers

Tony

Its no problem over lapping jibber. I am doing the Tamiya kit with AM decals, so will be nice to compare.

Well, I do have a large pile of reference books on German armour, and earlier this year I read Kurt Meyer's Grenadiers. I also have Herbert Meyer's two volumes on the 12th SS but not read that yet.

Bish, Gamera, and Schatten -  thanks for the comments .

Greg, your turret cheek looks spot on, is the red a primer or putty colour?

-----------------------------

I can also confirm that elements of the 12SS Panzer Division arrived on the scene quite early, as the Firefly I am portraying was knocked out by them on the afternoon of June 7th, 1944.  It was a meeting engagement as both sides were offensively minded.

Writings of the action confirm that the 5th and 6th companies of the Panzer battalion were present, though a video I had posted back a few pages, also shows a vehicle numbered in the 400 range.  Panzer IV's are seen in the video clip, but I can't confirm if the J version was present.  The unit as a whole was created in late 1943, and not having seen action until now , I am just guessing that the balance of their Panzer IV inventory was the H model.

Some stills from the mentioned film:

?id=63043&num=315&size=still

?id=63043&num=318&size=still

?id=63043&num=344&size=still

?id=63043&num=365&size=still

regards,

Jack