Well after thinking about it, I'm going to do the tank like the box art shows, it's still just red on it but the camo is different than in the instructions. should still turn out good though.

Bish

Greg, thanks very much for that link. I will defiantly be going through that. I have always been cautious about the Pz Colours books. But I think they are a good starting point as long as you don't take their word for it.

But I think the same can be said for a lot of the Squadron books. I always treat them with an air of caution.

Yes. The photos are great reference, but I prefer to do my own interpretation of them based upon more research available out there.

Greg, I haven't stopped reading, thanks.

Greg, thanks very much for that link. I will defiantly be going through that. I have always been cautious about the Pz Colours books. But I think they are a good starting point as long as you don't take their word for it.

But I think the same can be said for a lot of the Squadron books. I always treat them with an air of caution.

Greg - thanks for correcting the history of the 21st.  This is even better proof  that this unit definitely would have all new vehicles with original schemes pertaining to the area.

What a gold mine of info on that link you provided - I've promptly attached the printed corrections to the suspect volumes.

regards,

Jack

waynec

mean within reason - if you paint it pink with purple polka dots it's probably wrong... (probably)

unless you do a B-24 formation airplane or your daughter wants a pink panther.

LOL, that's why I said 'probably' - I figured someone could find an exception or two! 

Jack: 21.PD wasn't in France for a refit, it was being reconstituted after the origninal division surrendered in Nord Afrika in 5/43.  On June 17, 1943 Schnelle Brigade West was upgraded to Schnelle Division West, and on June 27, 1943 was assigned the name 21st Panzer Division in memory of the unit that had fought and been captured in North Africa. Major Becker was assigned the command of the division's assault gun battalion, Panzerjäger-Abteilung 200.

As for the Panzer Colors books, there is some blatantly false info in those books. (There's a reason why Bill Murphy (RIP) wasn't involved in the last 2 of the series.)  See http://stugiii.com/gamesmodelsmisc/panzercolorserrata.html for corrections.

mean within reason - if you paint it pink with purple polka dots it's probably wrong... (probably)

unless you do a B-24 formation airplane or your daughter wants a pink panther.

Well, the Japanese built about fifty zillion Zeros and people are still arguing about what colour they were so I wouldn't get too hung up when painting a panzer!

I mean within reason - if you paint it pink with purple polka dots it's probably wrong... (probably)

Yes, the trio of Bruce Culver books (Panzer Colors I,II, and III) is a great foundation for German armour.  To my knowledge, the only official written documentation was that of  the implementation of new paints introduced during the course of the war.  

I haven't looked into all unit histories, but of the three I recently mentioned, 12 SS Hj were newly formed, while Lehr and the 21st Panzer were both in France for rest and refit.  Any surviving vehicles of the latter two, were left at the battle front as spares, replacements,  etc.   They were issued new equipment, and essentially had a fresh canvas to apply their camou schemes.

Regarding Flakpanzers, haven't seen anything as to why they don't have vehicle numbers.  When you think about it though, they were issued in small amounts generally, like maybe 3 or 4 units (while on paper it should have been more) - enough to make a single (zug)platoon, and assigned to Panzer regiment HQ (or heavy tank battalion HQ).  Their tactical doctrine too might be such that numbers were not required.  

regards,

Jack

This should really be on the DHGB.

yep that's where the WIP pics will be

This should really be on the DHGB.

Thanks to both of you. I had the same thoughts but I guess things were really on the fly and what we have are some B&W photos for records. I have checked reference books and found (6) different patterns for the Ostwind. I guess  I'll pick one, but what really surprises me is theres no vehicle number on them?  

Thanks as always. I'm waiting for some PE to get started.

unless i am doing a specific vehicle or scene AND have photos to justify it, i think there are lfew specifics to worry about. obcvously the amush dot pattern was late in the war but 2 color vs 3 color, sharp edge vs feathered edge, brought vs narrow is subjective. MMA german colors are diffent than PolyS colors than tamiya acrylics. throw in scale, lighting, weathering and it's a crap shoot. i do look at what fromnt and season i am modeling and than do what i would do if i were the vehicle commander.

probably will be adding some towed FLAK as the GB progresses and maybe an HT from a few years ago.

jibber

Bish, guys, in doing research into different German units, I'm trying to match vehicles and paint to particular units (a hunt I'm sure we all share). Heres what I find:

-Almost all are in black and white

-Sometimes you can pick up subtle variations in the grays

-Bish I really liked the color enhanced photo of the King headed to Normandy. I was able to get close to the camo theme and number.

Thats what I'm looking for all types of vehicles

Questions;

1. Is there a good source for color enhanced pics

2. A written account for units and the particular paint themes and numbers.

3. Most camo on the builds tend to match the box art, but in fact there are many variations.

4. Any where to find them.

5. I have books but most are incomplete.

6. I've saved many web sites mostly from some very smart people here, but I'm looking for more.

Thanks, Terry

Its a really awkward area. Firstly, I don't believe there was any standard form of pattern for the 3 colour camo. I believe it was up to individual units and some times even vehicles. Also, there the issue of paint supply. As Jack pointed out, vehicles should really be painted to match the environment. But what happens if your some where in the east and your supply is having problems and you haven't got any green paiste. And then what happens if you paint it to match one environment and you move to another.

As far as I know, there's no record of what units wore what colour, it would be far to complicated. What scheme a unit painted the tank at the start of a year could be completely different at the end of the year.

As for colour enhanced pics, I don't know of any source for them. I just stumbled across that Tiger pic at the right time. Best advice I can give is do a Google search from images of what type of vehicle you want and see what comes up.

There were many variations in scheme. It would depend on location, supply of paste, how you mixed the paste, what you applied it with and so on. All we can do really is get a general idea.

The Mobelwagen I have down for this GB I am assigning to the 506th s. Pz Abt. I know the unit had them, but I have no images, as they are hard to come across. So what I will do is try to find an image of one of the units Tiger's from the same time and paint the Mobelwagen on a scheme based on that.

Do you have the Squadron Pz Colours range of books. I would suggest those for a start if you don't.

I did some checking in my references tonight and I couldn't find any with markings like either of those Ausf J's. They certainly don't look like the ones worn by Pz's of the 12th SS. I will leave it upto you ww2 if you want to keep it in the GB.

BlackSheep, look forward to seeing some pics.

Got my paint today! Now I can finally get down to finishing it!

Maybe I'll have to stick with the half track for this GB then.

For example; I've researched all Flakpanzer IV wirbelwinds and Ostwinds.  What I find is a lot of the same 3 color camo pattern and not much else. Were they numbered? One photo had white bars outside of the turret I assume for confirmed kills? Were there any in just plain dark yellow? Any other unit numbers etc.

I enjoy the research before the build but the people on this site have more knowledge collectively that I could find in months.  

Thanks, again.

Do we have a research area on this site?

Bish, guys, in doing research into different German units, I'm trying to match vehicles and paint to particular units (a hunt I'm sure we all share). Heres what I find:

-Almost all are in black and white

-Sometimes you can pick up subtle variations in the grays

-Bish I really liked the color enhanced photo of the King headed to Normandy. I was able to get close to the camo theme and number.

Thats what I'm looking for all types of vehicles

Questions;

1. Is there a good source for color enhanced pics

2. A written account for units and the particular paint themes and numbers.

3. Most camo on the builds tend to match the box art, but in fact there are many variations.

4. Any where to find them.

5. I have books but most are incomplete.

6. I've saved many web sites mostly from some very smart people here, but I'm looking for more.

Thanks, Terry

Bish, Gamera & Jack: thanks for the kind words on my 251/9's camo.  Unfortunately, I won't be able to do any work on it until friday.

Another possibility with Tamiya's Panzer IVJ , the camou is right, but incorrect theater?

The zero in 806 indicates this a HQ vehicle of the 8th company.  I've looked at the three main German tank divisions present at Normandy during June: (12SS Hj, 21st Panzer  and Panzer Lehr Div.).

The SS unit has in it's roster only 804 and 805 listed, so that might take it out of the equation.

SS numbering system

  Also found a photo of 805, but must be regular Wehrmacht unit as the crew do not have sleeve eagles.  http://www.armourworkshop.ca/viewtopic.php?p=1839

Interestingly, Bison decals has a Panzer IVj set,

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/48/bison/bd48002.htm

and one of the subjects have a white 809, but is of the 12 Pz.Div. eastern front.   One picture found of 806, and it has been identified with the same 12 Pz.Div. located in Lithuania.

www.network54.com/...

As for stand alone brown camou, note the Bison set linked above, those of the Normandy examples all have green included.  I believe this in keeping with the region we are dealing with, so here is one more final link, monthly average temperatures in the area of Caen (give or take a few degrees if you're into the global warming stuff):

http://www.holiday-weather.com/caen/averages/

regards,

Jack

Here www.tamiya.com/.../top_450.jpg

The website is down, I will have a look tomorrow. But its not unknown for just one of the camo colours to be used.

I'm doing this one

www.tamiyausa.com/.../ger-pzkw-iv-ausf-j-32518

For the camo it has brown spots all over it, no green. But I haven't been able to find any pictures of any vehicle with just brown spots on them.

I always assume that they take schemes from photo's. Though often I haven't been able to find a pic of a certain scheme. Its not un common for kits to be marked as un known unit. It could be the vehicle wasn't carrying unit insignia, or the pics they have don't show it. I think we have to just take it on faith that they have taken the scheme from a photo source of some kind.

Which kit are you referring to and do you have a pic of the scheme your doing.

If a kit instructions says unit is unknown, whats the chance that the camo isn't correct?

I think you guys are right about German hatches, I have never noticed them. But then I had never really looked.

Thanks guys.

Off the top of my head, I think the only springs I've seen on German armour are those located on the side of moveable fender flaps, such as the Panzer IV.

regards,

Jack

German armor had no hatch springs AFAIK.

Jack: Thst's some great detail work!