First Annual USAF Vietnam Group Build

Another perfect example of US thinking - if it drives like a Ferrari, how can we turn it into a dump truck?

Son Of Medicine Man

Striker8241

Cool, Ken!  

Is this about the evaluation program over in Vietnam?

Russ

10-4 on that Russ.  It proved very successful, but unfortunately, the USAF still didn't consider using it in mass.  They still preferred the big bulky F-4.  We did however provide the VNAF with several F-5s.  When the North Vietnamese captured them, several were sent to the Soviet Union.  They tested it against the MiG-21, which won almost all fights.

Ken

I should have stipulated that the F-5 won almost all dogfights with the MiG-21 during the Soviet's tests.  It was a very agile aircraft.  In fact, it is still used as a training and aggressor aircraft by the U.S. military.

Ken

Striker8241

Cool, Ken!  

Is this about the evaluation program over in Vietnam?

Russ

10-4 on that Russ.  It proved very successful, but unfortunately, the USAF still didn't consider using it in mass.  They still preferred the big bulky F-4.  We did however provide the VNAF with several F-5s.  When the North Vietnamese captured them, several were sent to the Soviet Union.  They tested it against the MiG-21, which won almost all fights.

Ken

Cool, Ken!  

Is this about the evaluation program over in Vietnam?

Russ

Hi Everyone!

I thought I would share pictures of my latest acquisition.  It is a decal sheet made by Caracal Models for the F-5A and F-5C.  I will be using the markings for the Skoshi Tiger evaluation program:

Ken 

Ken, thanks for all the info! I don't mind building in smaller scales so the Hasegawa kit is a thought. Plus it looks like it can be hand pretty cheaply. Don't think I want to tackle a resin kit just yet. I wouldn't mind the 1/32 vacuum formed kit. But my aircraft hanger space is limited! I'll just keep an eye out on ebay for the Monogram RF-101. My goal one day is to have the entire century series line built in 1/48 for every version of the aircraft. So I'll have to get it one of these days anyway.

Another one I'm looking at is the Monogram A-1H Skyraider. My dad built one when I was really young and I really liked how it looked. So I might snag one in the next couple weeks.

David

GreySnake

Well Ken I was all excited about the 101, but the one I have is the interceptor I thought for sure I had the RF-101 in my stash. One Monogram RF-101 is listed on ebay right now. But since I'm blowing my model budget for the month on an Airfix Sea Vixen I'll have to let it go. 

I could always build my Tamiya Phantom

David

Hi David,

Yes, if you were intending on building the F-101 for this build, it would have to be the RF-101C.  There are several Hasegawa 1/72 RF-101C on eBay, but I don't know if you build that small in scale.  The only choice presently to build a 1/48 RF-101C is to use the Revell 1/48 F-101B and a conversion kit.  There are a couple available.

The more expensive one is a resin kit made by C & H Aero Miniatures which just sold the molds to Mike Moore of GHI Models:  http://www.ghimodels.com  He has not started making any kits yet so currently they are not available.  But according to his website he will start re-releasing some of the kits he purchased beginning with the A-1E Skyraider next month.

The other alternative is the vacuum formed conversion kit made by Koster Aero Enterprises.  His kit is less expensive than the C & H Aero kit.  Bill Koster does not have a website but there is a site that has a description and contact information:  http://www.swannysmodels.com/KostersKorner.html 

Last but not least, there is one place I know of that offers a vacuum formed kit for a 1/32 Voodoo.  It is a little salty, listing for $98.00 plus shipping.  It is listed on the Old Model Kits website:  http://www.oldmodelkits.com/index.php?detail=4875&scale=1/32&searchtext=voodoo 

Pretty soon Kitty Hawk will be releasing their 1/48 F-101A and rumor has it that they will eventually release a RF-101C.  In fact, I am seriously thinking about starting another group build just for the Voodoo when they release the F-101A.  It will be for all versions of the Voodoo.

Ken

Well Ken I was all excited about the 101, but the one I have is the interceptor I thought for sure I had the RF-101 in my stash. One Monogram RF-101 is listed on ebay right now. But since I'm blowing my model budget for the month on an Airfix Sea Vixen I'll have to let it go. 

I could always build my Tamiya Phantom

David

GreySnake

Tim, At least you had better luck on your decals, then I did with mine on the 105. Looking good so far!

As for me I might add another build soon. Thinking about getting some decals for  my F-101. But will see right now I have almost five builds on the shelf and other two waiting!

David

Hi David,

The F-101!  My favorite plane!  (As you may have guessed from my avatar!)  Which version?   

Ken

Tim, At least you had better luck on your decals, then I did with mine on the 105. Looking good so far!

As for me I might add another build soon. Thinking about getting some decals for  my F-101. But will see right now I have almost five builds on the shelf and other two waiting!

David

Kiwi

Thanks for enamel beta Ken! I'll definitely give it a try. I was at the LHS earlier today and they have a nice selection of model masters stuff so I'll be sure to let you know how it goes after my practice F-16 gets yet another paint scheme!

Little more work on the Dragonfly this evening. Some decals applied, they are old and horrible and wrinkly and turning white so I drowned them in micro-sol/micro-set and we'll see what happens overnight I guess. The plane looks better now with some future and decals, I'm actually looking forward to weathering and displaying it.



Also made a good start on my F102, getting some parts ready for some paint in the next few days when I have time to get my airbrush out. It's actually a very very simple kit with not too many bits, unlike the F14 I just finished which has fifty trillion pieces. So far it looks nice and solid and after cutting off more flashing plastic than I've ever seen, looks like it should go together really nicely.

Your Dragonfly is looking good Tim!  I hope the decals come out the way that you want them.  They look pretty good in the pictures.

Ken

Kiwi

Ken,

I have never airbrushed enamels, why do you prefer it? I do a lot of my fine brush detailing with enamels after, I think it was you, mentioned that it doesn't eat the acrylic undercoat. I like them in cockpits especially as it's so much easier to paint small dots and surfaces without the wet runoff or difficulty mixing them thick enough to stick. How are they to airbrush? Do you use a thinner? They must smell pretty bad?

I've been tinkering with the F102 for my friend. It's the old monogram kit and it's actually really neat. I had no idea what a big plane it was (after building the F104). I guess I just assumed that it was smaller but it's at least as big as the F14 I just completed. I've picked up another identical kit for myself and will build them side by side. Will try and chip away at the Skyraider at the same time - I guess the Syraider will give me a chance for redemption at the camoflauge colors after my Dragonfly debacle. Still, as soon as my silly putty arrives I might give it another go. I really like that idea, must be able to make super fine lines.

Again, happy new year everyone! Probably a quiet one here, in bed by 9pm so can get up early and ski tomorrow! :)

Hi Tim,

There are few reasons why I prefer enamel paint.  First, when I started building models as a kid, enamel was the only kind available.  I am showing my age here, since it was around 1963 when I was 6 years old.  When I picked the hobby up again a few years ago, it was easy for me to refer back to the same paint.

Second, enamel does not dry as fast as acrylic.  This makes it easier (at least for me) to airbrush.  You can get a smooth finish and don't face the same problem as what you encountered with the "rough" finish from the paint drying before it hits the surface.

Third, I have more experience with enamel paint from painting automobiles (the real ones, not models!).

But a lot of people prefer acrylic, it is simply a matter of personal choice, not that one is truly better than the other.

And yes I do thin the enamel paint.  I use Model Master enamel paint, so I use their thinner. And again yes enamel does has a strong odor, but I use a paint booth that ventilates the fumes.

Ken

Ken,

I have never airbrushed enamels, why do you prefer it? I do a lot of my fine brush detailing with enamels after, I think it was you, mentioned that it doesn't eat the acrylic undercoat. I like them in cockpits especially as it's so much easier to paint small dots and surfaces without the wet runoff or difficulty mixing them thick enough to stick. How are they to airbrush? Do you use a thinner? They must smell pretty bad?

I've been tinkering with the F102 for my friend. It's the old monogram kit and it's actually really neat. I had no idea what a big plane it was (after building the F104). I guess I just assumed that it was smaller but it's at least as big as the F14 I just completed. I've picked up another identical kit for myself and will build them side by side. Will try and chip away at the Skyraider at the same time - I guess the Syraider will give me a chance for redemption at the camoflauge colors after my Dragonfly debacle. Still, as soon as my silly putty arrives I might give it another go. I really like that idea, must be able to make super fine lines.

Again, happy new year everyone! Probably a quiet one here, in bed by 9pm so can get up early and ski tomorrow! :)

Kiwi

Greysnake, thanks for the advice on the silly putty. I'll get some next time I'm at the store. That will work much better than my blobs of tape I'm sure! Looks great on the Spitfire for sure.

Ken, that's awesome about the paint. I had no idea that that's what the codes meant. Very cool. The dragonfly was a very old kit and it literally just said 'tan'. I had Tamiya 'deck tan' and it was obviously much too light. I might actually go back and repaint it because the kit actually looks great, if it weren't for that color! I threw the kit together in an awful hurry but I don't regret it, it was very therapeutic at the time and I got it very cheap.

I'm about to go back to my Skyraider I think too. I walked by it this morning and kind of got excited about seeing it painted up in USAF colors, now that I know what those colors are!!

I'll also be making a start on the F-102 this week. I guess I can add that to the group build too eh Ken? I need to do a good job of this one as it's for my best friends office and he makes parts for Boeing so if there are mistakes he will call me out for sure!

What is everyone doing for New Year?

Hi Tim,

You are most welcome about the info, glad to pass it along.

For New Years we are having friends over to watch the ball drop.  We usually play games until then.  But a sign of getting older, the party usually is over once the ball does drop!

Ken

GreySnake

Pete, Glad to here that you almost got that gap gone!

Tim and Ken, I remember looking at the Cybermodeler link for the Tamiya paint matches for SEA camo. It was my experience that XF-57 is way to light and XF-65 way to dark. When I paint another SEA camo with Tamiya paint's, I'd use XF-52 lightened for the base coat and XF-5  and XF-27 for the greens.

David

Thanks for the info David!  I use Model Master paint myself, preferably the enamel but use the acrylic when it is necessary.

Ken

Kiwi

Greysnake, thanks for the advice on the silly putty. I'll get some next time I'm at the store. That will work much better than my blobs of tape I'm sure! Looks great on the Spitfire for sure.

What is everyone doing for New Year?

Thanks. Just some more advice on the Silly Putty. I'd make sure the maker is Crayola, since that's the only brand I've used. And I don't know if other brands would have a different formula and attack the paint. Also when masking around small parts be really careful! It can basically swallow them up. So I'd be careful around PE. When airbrushing the camo make sure you are using a low PSI and not spraying at an angle, or you risk ruining the base coat. When taking the putty off make sure the painted putty doesn't come in contact with you're nicely painted model, since it will transfer the paint to it The putty sticks like crazy to blue painters tape, handy if some of it is being stubborn or a piece of fresh putty will pull it up. Also I don't recommend reusing the putty since the putty can transfer the old paint that's on it to a new model.

Another masking trick that I haven't used, but people have a lot of success with is Blu Tac by 3M. Its mainly used for hanging up posters and a lot of guys seem to swear by it. From what I gather you roll it out into long snakes and put it where you want the camo outline. And then fill in rest of the spots to be covered with paper towels.

As for the New Year I'll be going to work like always.

David

Greysnake, thanks for the advice on the silly putty. I'll get some next time I'm at the store. That will work much better than my blobs of tape I'm sure! Looks great on the Spitfire for sure.

Ken, that's awesome about the paint. I had no idea that that's what the codes meant. Very cool. The dragonfly was a very old kit and it literally just said 'tan'. I had Tamiya 'deck tan' and it was obviously much too light. I might actually go back and repaint it because the kit actually looks great, if it weren't for that color! I threw the kit together in an awful hurry but I don't regret it, it was very therapeutic at the time and I got it very cheap.

I'm about to go back to my Skyraider I think too. I walked by it this morning and kind of got excited about seeing it painted up in USAF colors, now that I know what those colors are!!

I'll also be making a start on the F-102 this week. I guess I can add that to the group build too eh Ken? I need to do a good job of this one as it's for my best friends office and he makes parts for Boeing so if there are mistakes he will call me out for sure!

What is everyone doing for New Year?

Pete, Glad to here that you almost got that gap gone!

Tim and Ken, I remember looking at the Cybermodeler link for the Tamiya paint matches for SEA camo. It was my experience that XF-57 is way to light and XF-65 way to dark. When I paint another SEA camo with Tamiya paint's, I'd use XF-52 lightened for the base coat and XF-5  and XF-27 for the greens.

David

GreySnake

Pete, Well I guess it was worth a shot. I looked around online trying to find a build review of the Encore kit and can't come across any. Later on today I'll break open my kit and do some test fitting and see what I come up with.

Kiwi The Dragonfly is looking pretty good. Like you said the tan looks a little light, but the future coat will darken it plus weathering. I know its too late now but what I found helps for painting soft edge camo is silly putty.

 

You can buy it for under two dollars. I used the Spitfire as a test bed for the putty, had a little running underneath but I had my paint a little to thin. The putty was put directly over unsealed Tamiya acrylic but it didn't pull any of the base coat up. The model is 1/72 btw.

PS Nice score on the F-22!  

Hi David,

Nice tip on using the silly putty!  Thank you.

Ken

Kiwi

So perhaps a little bit of redemption with the Dragonfly after the advice from you guys. I cut some masks and applies the dark green which looked great! Then I applied the tan and it was way too light. I wish is used a light brown instead but I think I can darken it up with some weathering. It has a coat of future drying right now. What do you think?


My eBay rampage continues, this guy turned up today!

Hi Tim,

For Southeast Asia (SEA) camouflage colors, I am pretty sure the USAF used the same colors on all of their aircraft.  For us modelers we use the FS (Federal Standard 595) colors.  These numbers are 5 digits long.  The numbers break down as the following:

The first digit represents the finish.  A "1" is gloss, a "2" is semi-gloss, and a "3" is flat.

The second digit represents the color category.  0 = Brown, 1 = Red, 2 = Orange, 3 = Yellow, 4 = Green, 5 = Blue, 6 = Gray, 7 = Miscellaneous (Black, White, etc.), and 8 = Fluorescent.

The last three digits represent the shade of the color.  This is measured as a "reflectance", meaning the percent of incident light reflected from a colored area.  The higher the number, the "lighter" the color.

For example, the tan color you are looking for in FS is FS30219.  You notice that the first digit is a "3".  This means it is a "flat" color.  The second digit is a "0", which represents the color Brown.  The last 3 digits are "219", which comes up with the shade of brown.

Here is a link to a page that has the USAF SEA FS colors for most brands of paint:

http://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-4/f-4_profile02.shtml 

According to that chart, for the tan color you should use FS30219 which is XF57 in Tamiya paint.  The medium green should be FS34102 which is XF65 in Tamiya paint, and the dark green should be FS34079 which is XF13 in Tamiya colors.  It doesn't show the Tamiya color for the light grey but on another chart the FS36622 should be XF19.

Ken

GreySnake-

I spent some time yesterday fiddling with it. I've been sanding, test fitting, sanding some more, test fitting some more etc. It's almost there. I think today I'll be able to get it to fit nicely. And looking ahead a few steps, the canopy frame and windscreen will pretty much hide any little gap I may end up with.

Pete, Well I guess it was worth a shot. I looked around online trying to find a build review of the Encore kit and can't come across any. Later on today I'll break open my kit and do some test fitting and see what I come up with.

Kiwi The Dragonfly is looking pretty good. Like you said the tan looks a little light, but the future coat will darken it plus weathering. I know its too late now but what I found helps for painting soft edge camo is silly putty.

You can buy it for under two dollars. I used the Spitfire as a test bed for the putty, had a little running underneath but I had my paint a little to thin. The putty was put directly over unsealed Tamiya acrylic but it didn't pull any of the base coat up. The model is 1/72 btw.

PS Nice score on the F-22!  

GreySnake- Got the kit out again and looked at the two resin parts you mentioned (R23 and R10). I can honestly say I don't have a clue as to how these two parts are supposed to go together! The instructions make it look to me as if R23 should sit on top of R10, maybe going down the middle? I'm kinda lost on this. Either way I don't think it would solve the gap issue as the gaps appear on both sides of the panel where they meet up with the fuselage. I'm putting aside and looking around the web to see if I can find some references.

Ken, Pete, thanks for the tips! Now that you mention it - it makes perfect sense about the paint drying. I had mixed it quite thin but was applying it with very little pressure on the paint so it was all air and a tiny bit of paint. I thought this would help me draw thin, fine lines for the outlines of the camo - which it did, but it didn't fill in very well, obviously because it was dry before it hit the plastic. I've used this technique a lot on very small pieces and it works really well - because the piece is so small and you can't see the texture of the paint. I checked this morning and the green I hosed on over the whole plane looks great now that it's dried! I think I will cut up some camo masks and try again this weekend with a tan and a dark green.

To answer your question - I always use Tamiya acrylics, in a paasche VL. Oh, I wonder also if the way I was painting was also causing the airbrush to clog up? I was finding the needle was getting quite sticky every 30 seconds or so and I would have to blow it out onto some cardboard. All good lessons to be learned though right? :)

Kiwi-

If you like the plane, you can strip the paint off. It's a PIA, but it can be done. I was working on a P-26 and was going to finish it in a blue fuselage, yellow wing scheme. I rattle canned the wings with a can of Tamiya and then decided after they were done to go with an olive drab scheme instead. I spent an afternoon with some lacquer thinner, paper towels, polishing pads and a mask and got the wings down to bare plastic. I viewed it as a great learning experience and finished the kit.

Put on some country music and have at it.

Good luck,

Striker8241

Nice, Ken! I figure you'll be about 90 by the time you get to this one . Hope I'm around to see you build it

  You are right about that Russ, if I keep going at the pace I am now!  My thinking though is that when I retire my pace will increase dramatically.  Right now work, and taking care of two houses is keeping me pretty busy.

Ken

Kiwi

Gents,

So i managed to get out of work a little early this afternoon, excited to spend some quality time with my airbrush and some country music in the garage. I was free handing camo on the dragonfly and trying to do a nice job. Two hours in and the colors were all wrong so out of frustration I just coated the whole thing in the dark green that was in the paint cup and figured I could just use that as my base coat and start over. It looks absolutely terrible! I'm disappointed and almost to the point of throwing it in the trial and error or technique practice bin... But I like the plane and I want to finish it. Any advice guys? The paint also seemed thin so I was making many passes, which really helped for the fine lines of painting camo sections by hand but had a weird, powdery finish like a felt pen perhaps, any ideas?

Hi Tim,

Sorry to hear that you are having so much trouble with your airbrush.  Several factors can cause the rough sandpaper finish you are talking about.  Basically, your paint is drying before it hits the surface of the model.

One thing is the distance from the tip of the airbrush to the model.  If you are spraying from to far of a distance, the paint will dry before it reaches the model.  Of course the answer here is to simply move closer to the surface you are spraying.

Another could be the paint is too thick for the air pressure you are using.  You want your paint to have the consistency of 2% milk.  If you have the right consistency, then you need to increase the air pressure.  Otherwise, if the paint is too thick, you need to add thinner.  You didn't mention what kind of paint you are using.  Acrylic paint tends to dry fairly quickly where as enamel has a longer drying time.  And flat colors dry faster than gloss.

For acrylic paint, there are some additives that you can use to help.  There are a couple of products made by "Liquitex".  The first one is called "Slow-Dri Fluid Retarder".  Just like the name implies, it slows the drying time.  It comes in a 4-oz bottle but you don't use it at full strength, it is supposed to be mixed with water first, so a 4-oz bottle will last a long time.  Here is a link to Amazon where you can purchase it:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004M559I2/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

A second product by "Liquitex" is called "Flow Aid".  It helps the acrylic paint to flow and also reduces the drying time.  Here is a link to Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KNPM46/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1"http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KNPM46/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1 

Ken