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Armour in the West GB (D-Day to Berlin)

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  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Cincinnati Ohio
Posted by DantheMan85 on Saturday, April 25, 2015 8:49 PM

Thanks Bish, I'm not sure either.  Seen some pictures with numbers on the sides, and then ones with out.  

Finished up the decal's yesterday, and airbrushed future this morning.  The white star decals gave me some trouble,  but model master decal solvent soften it up and it looks great.  Used my hobby knife to cut the decal in between the hatches on the back deck.

On my Work Bench: Tamiya Ford GT 1/24

Up Coming: ?

           

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Sunday, April 26, 2015 7:06 PM

Dan: everything looks really good!

I've seen large numbers on the sides of British/Commonwealth Shermans but never on American ones. I've only seen the registration numbers applied in small print to the front and rear as you have on yours.

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Beaverton, OR
Posted by Ghostrider114 on Monday, April 27, 2015 2:23 AM

The livery I'm making has them on the sides of the hull.  I'm sure Tamiya wouldn't mess up something like that.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Monday, April 27, 2015 7:25 AM

GR114: Well, if the instructions has them it's a reference to an actual vehicle so it's probably right - just disregard me here!  

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Cincinnati Ohio
Posted by DantheMan85 on Monday, April 27, 2015 7:32 AM

Thanks Gamera.

Here's some pictures of a M4A3(75) BillyBoys, located at Sandusky Ohio. 

I think it's hit and miss with the numbers on the side, some have them while others don't.  Found this on the internet.

On my Work Bench: Tamiya Ford GT 1/24

Up Coming: ?

           

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Monday, April 27, 2015 8:39 AM

Ahhhhhhhh......... I forgot about the small numbers on the rear hull there! For some reason I was thinking about large numbers on the turret like the Germans used and on these British Shermans. Just forget I said anything okay???Dunce

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Monday, April 27, 2015 9:55 AM

Dan - good looking Sherman.

For the numeral type markings, there is actually two sets.  Those found on the hull sides are vehicle registration numbers, and were applied at the factory.   The other type is found on the front and/or back, known as bumper codes, and were applied once assigned to a unit.

To quote the researcher/author/modeler Steve Zaloga:

Registration numbers

October 24 2003, 9:06 AM 

The basic guidelines for the painting of US Army registration numbers on vehicles were controlled by AR-850-5 (AR= Army regulation). At the start of the war, the governing regulation was the 25 Sep 36 circular which called for 4 inch white reg. nos. On 5 June 1942, the War Dept. issued Circular No. 174 which changed the previous circular to the use of blue drab paint applied with a stencil.

AR-850-5 was reissued on 5 Aug 42 and incorporated the Circular No. 174 change, reiterating the blue drab and specifying 2 inch (down from 4 inch) for all vehicles except motorcycles (1 in). The 15 Feb 45 AR-850-5 edition switched back to the use of flat white paint.

The actual registration numbers painted on the vehicles were assigned in the contract to the manufacturer. So for example, the first 1940 manufacturing contract to American Car and Foundry for the M3 light tank called for the use of registration numbers from 30978 to 31604. By 1941, the number of digits had increased so one contract batch (tank serials 670 to 1800) had the reg. nos. 307125 to 307753. The 1942 contact block included reg. nos. 3011159 to 3011459. Individual tank types often had multiple registration blocks due to different plants and different contract batches. So for example, there were ten different registration number blocks for the M5A1 light tank.
The actual style of painting of the reg. nos. had some variation from plant to plant, which is why you see the "railroad" style fonts from some plants.

To further complicate things, when tanks were shipped overseas, they had to be waterproofed for the shipment, and after the waterproofing was removed, the paint was often damaged. So this often meant that the tanks were repainted by ordnance units in theater before being issued to troops. Many Ordnance units in Europe repainted the registration numbers in white, either because they didn't have blue drab paint, or because the local theater commander approved the use of white or yellow as a substitute. A lot of combat units didn't like blue drab numbers since they were hard to read, and this number was regularly used for maintenance records. So as a result, there tends to be a lot of variation in registration numbers on photos of tanks in combat.

The bottom line is to use photos of the actual tank or AFV you want to model for guidance.

-------------------------------------

If you do a web search on AR-850-5, you can find a lot of in depth info.  There are pdf files of the actual war time manuals.

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Monday, April 27, 2015 11:00 AM

Good looking Sherman, Dan.

I finally got back on the "Almost Super", base is done except for the final painting of the yet-to-be-added mantlet armor, which was supposed to have been cut from a Panther glacis. Anyway, "Belton" is mounted, chocks and stand for the armor chunk are made up from stained balsa and everything is in its final position. Pics so far, sorry for the cluttered back ground, but it was still too windy this morning to go outside and use my cardboard back-drop.....

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Monday, April 27, 2015 11:19 AM

Hey Jack, thanks for the low-down there!

RBaer: Looks really good. And I like 'Belton' he gives a good impression of the size of the 90mm gun.

I'm going to try to get the final storage added to my Jumbo Sherman and photos up sometime this week.  She's been done except for the final touches for sometime now and I just finished up the figures. I've been waiting to get the base done and well I put some broken bricks, boards, and other assorted debris on the base and then sprayed it with a aerosol adhesive. Unfortunately I  guess I should have read the back of the can more carefully since the stuff never dries and stays tacky! So I've been trying to remove this stuff and everytime I think it's all gone I find a couple more places I missed...

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, April 27, 2015 2:36 PM

RB, that looks great, love the base. Did that beast really need extra armour.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 11:31 AM

Gamera, Bish: Thanks.

Bish, I don't know that it "needed" any more armor, but it was stuck on there anyway. If you ever get a chance, read "Deathtraps" by Belton Cooper. It'll give you an idea of why the extra plates were added. It's a good read, if you keep firmly in mind that there was some serious bias on the authors part, and ignore the technical errors. 

It was raining this morning (imagine that) so I took pics indoors after some more weathering of the chunk of armor, and adding some actual wheel chocks. I'll probably pull the two hunks of wood at the ends of the right side tracks now, they're kind of redundant. Anyway, one pic with the flash, kind of stark but the colors are pretty accurate:

And the rest with no flash:

I'd like to get a couple of good outdoor shots for finished pics, but the weather is gonna have to cooperate first.

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 12:10 PM

RBaer: Thanks for the extra photos- your work is even more impressive when viewed all round. Great work on the base and the figure too. And I really like the extra mantlet plate lying there ready to be welded on.

Funny I was reading a critique of Cooper's book last night and the guy commented that it was largely ghost-written and some of the mistakes weren't his. Still not to beat a dead horse but some modern writers like Zaloga have been challenging the concept of the Sherman being a deathtrap recently. 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 1:43 PM

Gamera, thank you.

I I find it very interesting that Mr. Cooper lays blame with a ghost-writer for errors, of which there are a fair amount. Still, I can't help but believe that the constant negative remarks about the Sherman and the Allied command and weapons procurement systems in general are Mr. Cooper's alone- it's hard to pass that kind of over-riding content off as not the intent of the author. But given Mr. Cooper's exposure to the most gruesome results of knocked-out Shermans and AFVs in general, it is understandable.

And I have been reading pretty much everything Stave Zaloga has written about the Sherman and the campaign in NW Europe. He truly makes some very good points. He has another book on the way that's on my "must-have" list.

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 7:08 PM

RBaer: Whoops, I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression here, it was the reviewer that blamed the ghost writer for the errors not Mr. Cooper. Now that I'm home I can link to the article, which I have no idea how right or wrong it is but thought it was interesting reading.

Anyway as I said here's where I am on the tank and figures. I guess technically I'm done since my 'Jumbo' Sherman is finished - still working on the dio though.

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2013
Posted by Raven728 on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 7:24 PM

Great work, guys! Last weekend it finally occurred to me how little time I have left until the deadline. Unfortunately I had a setback with the individual-link tracks, and decided to scrap them for the vinyl ones, which I've primered and painted and will attach soon, after some drybrushing. They might not look as good, but they also won't affect my blood pressure. Angry

- Steve

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 10:26 AM

Sounds cool Raven, I like the individual link tracks, but gee friggin' whiz the rubber band ones are a lot less work.

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 5:44 PM

No prob, Gamera, I probably missed it on my end. The book is still worth reading.

Very nice Jumbo, and and figs. I look forward to seeing the dio you come up with.

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    September 2013
Posted by Raven728 on Wednesday, April 29, 2015 7:35 PM

Gamera

Sounds cool Raven, I like the individual link tracks, but gee friggin' whiz the rubber band ones are a lot less work.

I don't know what the 'vinyl' tracks in this kit are actually.made from, but I found out the hard way that neither primer nor superglue will adhere to them. The instructions say to use a hot screwdriver to melt the ends together, but that didn't work either, not even a little. So I ended up with superglued fingers and a workbench and model covered with paint chips with nothing accomplished. Pretty sure at this point that this kit is going in the back of the closet, for a while at least. Sorry to say that I can't see getting it done in a week with these miserable kit tracks. Sad

- Steve

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, April 30, 2015 7:59 AM

Raven: That blows! Well, if nothing else works you can always staple the tracks together or use some thread and a needle and sew them into one piece.

I use 'rubber bumper' spray paint from the auto parts store as a primer for rubber type tracks. Rob S. has recommended Krylon 'Fusion' paint for the same thing- I haven't tried it yet though. Either should give a good primer for any other coats of paint to grab onto.  

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Cincinnati Ohio
Posted by DantheMan85 on Thursday, April 30, 2015 2:23 PM

Thanks Jgeratic: Interesting information about the numbering system.

Thanks Rbaer: Great work on your Pershing and base, think I'll be trying my hand at a base on my model.

Gamera your Jumo Sherman is lookin' good, and figures.

The past two days been weathering up my Sherman, decided to go with some light weathering.  I used enamel artist oils, and dry brushed on Tamiya flat black and metallic grey.  Some area's where to hard to remove excess oils, so I just did my best or left those spot's alone.  Hopefully I can get to spraying Testors dullcote outside today, but the weather is not cooperation.

On my Work Bench: Tamiya Ford GT 1/24

Up Coming: ?

           

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, April 30, 2015 10:03 PM

Looks good Dan!

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Friday, May 1, 2015 3:20 PM

Agreed, looks good Dan.

I like to do bases, even store-bought simple ones, really helps with context.

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Saturday, May 2, 2015 7:08 PM

RBaer: Looks fantastic! I've got to pick up another M26- been forever since I've built one.

BTW: I'll try to get photos of my Jumbo up by the cut-off date. I think I said earlier that I sprayed the base with some adhesive material to stick the debris down and it didn't dry. Well, I pried some parts up and found they are coated with about a millimeter of sticky goop so I just tore the whole blasted thing down and am soaking the sandbags and destroyed PaK 40 in Simple Green to hopefully get all the adhesive off them. Of course it will take the paint off too, so looks like I'm starting the base all over again, at least it's not the model though....  

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Beaverton, OR
Posted by Ghostrider114 on Saturday, May 2, 2015 7:49 PM

Raven728

Gamera

Sounds cool Raven, I like the individual link tracks, but gee friggin' whiz the rubber band ones are a lot less work.

I don't know what the 'vinyl' tracks in this kit are actually.made from, but I found out the hard way that neither primer nor superglue will adhere to them. The instructions say to use a hot screwdriver to melt the ends together, but that didn't work either, not even a little. So I ended up with superglued fingers and a workbench and model covered with paint chips with nothing accomplished. Pretty sure at this point that this kit is going in the back of the closet, for a while at least. Sorry to say that I can't see getting it done in a week with these miserable kit tracks. Sad

I've had issues with some brand's "vinyl" before too, try using acrylic paints instead of the enamels, those usually work better.  You can even seal the track with a coat of acrylic and then paint over that with normal enamels.  The heat riveting usually works for me, you might just need more heat, I usually use an X-acto blade instead of a screwdriver, the key is to press down nice and hard so the rivet melts into the top piece.  If that still doesn't work, some superglue brands have glues that are specially formulated for vinyl.

Ok, I guess I've been lousy about updates, but I finally got major assembly done and the main decals on, next I'll start on the little bits like the headlights and machine guns.

After that I'll get into the camo and weathering.  By the way, how much if at all did they clean these things before they applied the winter camo?  I'm wondering if I should weather it before I put the camo on.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Sunday, May 3, 2015 7:00 AM

Dan, coming along really nicely there.

RB, really nice finish there. Great work on the weathering and great looking figure and base. ye, I will add one of your pics, but it will have to be on page 3 where my first post is.

Looking good ghost. I would imagine the white was applied over the vehicle as is. Unless you have a high pressure steam wash, cleaning an AFV is a nightmare, and the white wash would not have been on for long anyway.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Sunday, May 3, 2015 7:40 AM

Looking really good there Ghost!

As Bish said I'm assuming they just slopped the whitewash over the vehicle including caked-on mud, dust, dirt and whatever else might be there.  

Anyway one last photo I took of the diorama before I decided to rip up the base and toss everything else into the solvent to hopefully clean the goo off.... 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Cincinnati Ohio
Posted by DantheMan85 on Sunday, May 3, 2015 4:58 PM

Thanks Gamera,

Thanks Rbaer: Excellent job on your Pershing, and your base is lookin' good. Was tring to get a M26 from Squardon.com during there hobbyboss sale, they never got them in stock.

Thanks Bish.

Ghostrider114: Your M4 is coming along great, like the lighter olive drab.

Well I'm going to call her done, was able to spray model master dullcote last Thursday and it's fully dry today.  I'm really happy how it turned out, think I'll be leaving off the tools and other items on future builds to paint them separately.  For me it'll make it easier.

My allied armor and vehicles portrait.

And my allied group build photo.

On my Work Bench: Tamiya Ford GT 1/24

Up Coming: ?

           

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Sunday, May 3, 2015 5:07 PM

Nice, 2 in one day. Really nice looking build there Dan. I always leave my tools off and only add before the final weathering, I just find it much easier to paint them that way. I have added your first pic to my post on page 3.

Nice little collection you got going there as well. Looking forward to seeing your StuG finished now.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: Cincinnati Ohio
Posted by DantheMan85 on Monday, May 4, 2015 8:33 AM

Thanks Bish, yeah I decided to try that with putting the tools on and painting them with the over all coat.  Think I'll go back to leaving them off.  I'm about halfway done with the weathering on my Stug, might get that stage finished today.

On my Work Bench: Tamiya Ford GT 1/24

Up Coming: ?

           

 

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