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ARMOR - Tamiya 1/16 Tiger 1 Group Build

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  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:41 PM
Wlad:

Glad to see ya back, and that you're feeling better. No, you dinna put me off, just perhaps made me a bit more cautious about how I applied my Zimm.

Those T1 cable mounts look good, but I want those properly-threaded wingbolts... I'm ~NOT~ gonna look back to see how long I've been begging for someone to make 'em. I was almost ready to ~pay~ someone to assemble mine for me on some M1 threaded rod (even if I had to thread it myself)

I did notice that none of the stores carries quite the same stock, even of the Schumo stuff. And BYA doesn't note most of the "Coming Soon" stuff that TZ does. I do agree, TZ's prices are often higher than anyone elses... but after you add shipping to ETO's, he's often higher than BYA's.

Glad to hear the S-Mine throwers come with tubing. It had me wondering too. The turret smoke launchers have the arms & plates, but not the pots. You have to use the styrene ones, or replace 'em with brass tube. I busted my arms, so I'm just going to re-make them from brass strip.

I see TZ has a 'new' Commander fig listed, with three head options (Tamiya or Verlinden copy?) plus 88mm ammo (rounds w/ shells) and rounds w/ crates (Aber knock-off?)

Looking forward to some other non-Tiger parts... gotta spruce up my King-Kitty, and then the 'targets'...

A slight beg though... anyone know of a super-duper Kitty (Leopard 1A4, as opposed to the Ultra-Kitty 2A6) thats available, let me know.
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: S.C. Beach
Posted by roowalker on Sunday, September 25, 2005 5:53 PM
Hey Wlad!
Thanks for the link to Schumos latest updates...ready made cable mounting
will be a Blessing....my current,completed Tigers I made those bits out of brass
& styrene---tedious pain in the backside!!
Yes ,the S-Mine launchers come with precisely cut brass tubing,very thin.
Only thing you need to add is the electrical firing lead & a small piece
of strip for the end of the tube...
Yes, the tow cables are flexible & hold your bends,loops,etc.perfectly
without annealing....no more burnt fingers,big propane torches,
fires,or loud cursing.. plus they are the correct diameter& twist..
Wlad,the supplementary side armor mounts fascinate me..
would love to see more info,even if its just conjecture.
Regards,
Mike
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: London, UK
Posted by Wlad on Sunday, September 25, 2005 11:17 AM
Hey guys,

Thanks for the comments regarding the zimm "study". I get a bit obsessed every now and again (don't we all?) I'm glad that you can put up with my ramblings. It wasn't meant to turn anyone away from doing zimm, quite the opposite. Yes it will be difficult or maybe even impossible to do it accurately to scale... but just go on the thin side rather than the thick side and I'm sure it'll look fine. I promise not to come around to check the thickness!

Roo, I've always had good service from BYA, sometimes in the past they have been a little slow but the goods have always arrived. With the S-mine launchers, do they come with the launching tubes too? The pics I have seen are only showing the support frames. Also with the new style tow cables, are they really "bend it to shape and they stay in that shape?"

You can often get a preview (and pics) of what's happening with Axel/Schumo by checking the Schumo Kits website... http://www.schumo-kits.com then click the Products link, then the 1/16 King Tiger and 1/16 Tiger I link text. Yes some interesting stuff... one piece late style metal muzzle brake... nice! A pic of the King Tiger Tow-Cable Holder Set, a few other goodies here and there and most interesting to me is a gear reduction! (coming soon)

For those that are new to this, Schumo Kits is the manufacturing brand of Axels Model Shop in Germany and their products are resold by a few different companies around the world. http://www.backyardarmor.com and http://www.etoarmor.com in the States, http://www.tankzone.co.uk in the UK and of course by Axel himself at http://www.axels-modellbau-shop.de I confess to buying direct from Axel's website - generally much cheaper even with shipping than the UK site.

Going back a bit... Roo, in the lead up to the launch of the Tiger at War book I remember reading about the pic that showed an "unusual mounting for supplementary side armor on a Tiger 1." Somebody posted a pic of the dug-up Panther with the supposed same mounting. I have the pic somewhere... don't hold your breath, my computer filing system is a bit like my brain... bits all over the place.


Regards,

Wlad.
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: S.C. Beach
Posted by roowalker on Friday, September 23, 2005 9:07 PM
Heads up from John @ BYA re.top & side cable brackets for
both the TI & KT ,more info / availablity in a few weeks.
Mike
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: S.C. Beach
Posted by roowalker on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:27 PM
Hey All !
Just want to pass on great experience re.BYA...
Ordered Items Sat.& received today...
S-mine launchers are just beautiful & the new
style tow cables are a "must have" for 1:16...the
separate sleeves & eyes ,coupled with correctly
sized,soft cables ....I think I'm in 1:16 dreamland....
Mike


  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Monday, September 19, 2005 3:39 PM
Well, I finished the zim on the turret and one half of the hull of the King Tiger...it's a tedious process but I like the results better than the gear method.

I've decided to do a finishing story using the King Tiger, so I'll be taking lots of photos of the process.

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 18, 2005 8:56 PM
Wlad:

Well documented article. And surprising data too. I may have to re-assess if the sticky-zimm is worth applying to the KT.

As for my Tiger, I think I'm going to have to find a finer gear. The images will be a big help, and I may even leave a few 'errors' in place like the bump-mark in the closeup of zimm7.

I gotta get back to working on the kitties...
- too many tanks, not enough time or $
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: S.C. Beach
Posted by roowalker on Saturday, September 17, 2005 10:19 AM
Hey Wlad !!
Have you possibly considered a career in German AFV restoration???
Museums of the world would certainly never have to worry about
their exhibits' accuracy of finish again!!!Bow [bow]Bow [bow]
Regards,
Mike
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 17, 2005 9:47 AM
Wlad,
an epic tome of very good information. Some of the pictures show just how thin the covering is. I think some pictures tend to enhance the thickness and have put this down to the angle of the light. When you look at the shape of the German magnetic mines it would appear that they would not take to much to knock them off because of their length. Seems they need a gap between them and the armour to work effectively. I think I can now use Tamiya`s offering on a King Tiger and use this as a test and if OK then see if a couple of the "seal`s" can be used to cover a mid or late Tiger 1. I do not fancy trying to use a putty to do a layer as thin as 1mm or less.
Not done much lately, the weather has been to good to miss running the trains but with colder days Im starting to look at the big Kitty again. Still putting the detail on the deck and hull rear. Did not realise how much there is on this tank. Im also looking to build some form of spray booth so I can spray in the garage on the colder days.
tankmech
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Friday, September 16, 2005 4:50 PM
Someone give this man his Ph.D in Zimmerit...he's earned it!! :-)

Interesting stuff Wlad, I'm going to re-read your post tonight and take the time to look seriously at the links you've posted.

Above all, I'm not disagreeing with anything you've written...yet! Wink [;)]

I'll also post my Zim job on my King Tiger tonight, when I get home.

Jeff
  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: London, UK
Posted by Wlad on Friday, September 16, 2005 2:40 PM
Hi all,

I apologise to everyone for my absence - I've been busy chatting up pretty nurses from a horizontal position for quite a while (unfortunately only me being horizontal)... and yes because of this (being horizontal - not the nurses) much to my dismay I completely missed the UK Jadgpanther appearance :(

There's always next year!

Here are my thoughts and opinions on the dreaded Zimmerit. I'm no expert on anything (except falling asleep in front of the TV) so I must stress these are just my opinions and observations and are only intended for us all to try and achieve an accurate as possible model. I started this little "study" a while ago but have just picked it up again in light of recent postings and tried to semi-complete it and get something posted, in haste! I hope it's not too late and helps some...

First I don't think there were very many "patterns" of zimmerit on Tiger 1's. There seems to be a "standard" pattern seen on the vast majority, and then a few oddities. My previous post (page 84) showed 2 different "waffle" type patterns on early Tiger 1s. To my scant knowledge there are only a few other published instances that show any "different" patterns - in this case it's an unusual "ridges with squares" pattern... http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm4.jpg (Tigers at the Front by Jentz - TATF from now on) p.122 and now one (fromTATF p.155) that shows a vertical recess between "columns"... http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm11.jpg

Some more "oddities"...

There is the Kubinka Tiger 1 http://tanxheaven.com/nic/tiger1kubinka2005/tiger1kubinka2005.htm that has remnants of zimmerit on the turret sides that is in a vertical ridge pattern - hard to see in the pics on the link but here's a pic from Achtung Panzer No.6 that shows it more clearly http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/kubinkatiger.jpg (this Tiger was repainted in the markings of the 505 by the museum some time ago.) There are a few more views of this "vertical ridging" in D.W. to Tiger 1, p.131. There are a couple other pics of Tiger 1s that show this vertical ridging on the turret sides too http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/verticalzimm2.jpg http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/verticalzimm.jpg both from Tigers in Combat II by Schneider, p 236 and 238 (hardback edition - it differs in the softback edition).

Also there are some instances of zimmerit applied to the slightly sloping horizontal area on the front of the tiger - the near horizontal face between the front mud flaps. http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimmonfront.jpg from Germanys Tiger Tanks D.W. to Tiger 1 by Jentz & Doyle p.153

That's just about the complete and total lot of "oddities" on the Tiger 1 zimm to my knowledge - only accounting for a very small number of instances in a few hundred? photos of Tiger 1s with zimm (don't make me count them!), but that doesn't mean there were not others similar to these oddities, or even with a different zimmerit pattern, it just means that we have no photos of any other "different" ones. Anyone have any pics of others or know of them?

The best reference I have seen for a measurement to help us modellers to get accurate scale zimm is one that shows a really factory fresh late Tiger 1 with mint zimmerit from a few different angles, the most useful being the shot from directly in front. http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm1.jpg and close up http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm1closeup.jpg These pics are from Panzer Tracts No.6. I count 12 full "columns" plus roughly a half column either side of these on the lower front face. So that makes roughly 13 (and a bit?) columns on this lower front face between the front hull extensions. I'll let you do the math. I think this likely to be the best source to base your measurement on. The back is shown here http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimmerit2.jpg and a 3/4 view too http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm2.jpg (Diversion: WW, note our old friend the "salami holder" ~ gun barrel rest wooden block ~ sitting to the right on the last pic.)

Of course two or three pics would be better, just to make sure that we get an "accurate average" so here they are... 13 and a bit? columns here... http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm12.jpg (TATF p.115) and 13 and a bit? also here by counting these two half pics of the same Tiger together (use the two black spots at the leading edge of the hull front as a reference point) ... http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm14.jpg http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm15.jpg (TATF p.112, p.113) Three instances of different Tigers with similar zimm properties is a reasonable average I assume.



Next, how thick was the zimmerit applied?

Hmmm... open can of worms...

Back on one of the links Jeff supplied there is an article that seems to be relatively "official" and a guide or directive from the time on how to apply zimmerit. That doesn't mean that it was done exactly this way in production but it's the best we've got to go on. Here it is in the original German http://tankomania.com/data/e/271.html You can do a Google tor Babelfish translation of it into English.

The important things here (if I am reading it correctly) are that the document suggests that zimmerit be applied initially in a thin layer in squares with 5mm spacing between (I think to give the later thicker coat something more to try and adhere to) then allowed to dry or be force dried. Then a secondary layer is applied to a suggested thickness of 4mm!!! I assume this to be to a total of 4mm thickness. This was then ridged with a "putty knife" or other such tool.

Now applying it to the Tiger 1s – the first "square" layer at 1mm thick?, extra on top of that to bring it to 4mm and then the ridging adds maybe another 4 mm of depth - that makes about 8mm thickness. Ok let's completely exaggerate and say the first square coat was 4mm thick, the second added - AN EXTRA 6MM - in thickness and the ridging takes the high points up ANOTHER 6MM - that makes a total of 16mm.

So now the bad news... in 1/16th scale that would make this exaggerated instance only 1mm thick from the base to the highest ridges! So based on the info above if we desire accurately scaled zimmerit on our Tamiya Tigers it should be less than 1mm thick with ridges! and probably only about .5mm! Amazing? When you think about it they wouldn't make it thick enough to obscure or hinder the fittings used to hold the tools etc. and the tools/cables etc from being able to be attached to the fittings. For instance the square nuts welded to the hull sides used to bolt the side mud guards to are 25mm thick in 1:1 scale (measured on the Bovington Tiger.) If zimm were of a great thickness it would prevent the side guards from being attached. Of course the scale thickness of zimm only really comes into account if you wish to show the thickness, like in battle damaged areas, and shouldn't matter (tooooooooo) much as long as you can still attach tools etc. If you think this a problem in 1/16th scale... what about in 1/35th? Yikes!

Ok, now some combat pics to try and support the zimm thickness/thinness theory...

Here's a couple of pics (from Tigers on the Eastern Front p.55 and p.56) showing some damaged/chipped zimmerit and from this we can hopefully get an idea of the thickness of the zimmerit with the help of a few handy indications of scale - the towing cable we know is 32mm diameter, the track cable at bottom right, we know to be 14mm diameter, next we have the driver in the first pic (maybe he has chunky hands) but his ring is likely to be a 3-5mm band? So how thick is the zimmerit? Is it as thick as one of the cables or even one of his fingers? http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm6.jpg

OK some more nicely damaged zimmerit on the second pic with our "scale gauge" the cables again and also a handy scale marker are the bolt heads that attach the side guards - these bolt heads are 10mm deep or thick (measured from the Bovington Tiger)... http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm5.jpg

What do you think?

I think we are all under the impression that it was a lot thicker than it actually was. My guess is that it was most likely about 8-10mm thick at maximum on the Tiger 1. What we often see is harsh shadows under the ridging that gives the impression of real depth. I think we are often fooled because we see what we want to believe...

I've seen, felt and measured a little of what I firmly believe to be unaltered zimmerit on the Jadgtiger at the UK Tank Museum at Bovington http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/jagdtiger.jpg and the Jagdpanther (square pattern) at London's Imperial War museum http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/jagdpanther1.jpg Both times I was actually surprised at the lack of thickness. I always thought it would be about 25mm thick but it was more like an average of... wait for it... 4 mm thick on the Jagdpanther with its square pattern and recessed lines, and (from memory - I didn't take notes of my quick measurements of the Jagdtiger) about 6mm to the highest point of the ridges on the Jagdtiger, the width of "columns" varied enormously. You may think this thickness to be the result of heavy weathering from years and years of neglect. Initially I may have agreed with you instantly but... with pondering the possibilities... now I think the weathering issue somewhat overplayed. From what I have seen there is still quite a bit of detail in some areas of zimm that you would normally have expected to be eroded with weathering, specially on the Jagdpanther, the Jagdtiger's zimm is quite weathered. With the Jagdpanther I measured the thickness in areas that were chipped/broken and the metal base exposed or better still - seemingly recently chipped/exposed (somewhat worrying) and which showed little or no weathering - yep 4mm on average. I plan on re-visting Bovington soonish to check and measure the Jagd's zimm properly. I can't promise exactly when. (Diversion: The Jagd is massive!!! Best I can describe it is... like a apartment block on tracks! Photos cannot begin to explain it... I found myself thinking "They were joking, weren't they? This is far too big to be practicable!" The Tiger 1 is seriously big, the King bigger, but the Jagdtiger is ridiculously big... I can't imagine a Maus! If you ever have the chance to visit a decent tank museum... don't hesitate... it'll blow your mind!)



Now some general observations for the Tiger 1 zimm...

In what I call the "standard" pattern there quite often seems to be a marked difference between the appearance on the turret sides compared to the hull front/back/sides pattern ridge spacing. Here's a pic that shows the two roughly in the same plane for comparison. http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm8.jpg (TATF p.148) It seems that way in a lot - maybe 80% of pics that show the turret zimmerit on Tiger 1s. It seems to have less ridges - roughly half the amount? of ridges compared to an area on the sides or front. Looking through a number of pics there seems no consistency or pattern in this as far as model is concerned - there are zimmed Mid versions with tight ridges on the turret and also others with the spaced out ridges, and Late model Tiger 1s with tight ridges and others with the spaced out ridges.

But... just when I thought that the zimm had only widely spaced ridges on the turret along comes another pic that shows wide ridging on the hull, lol! http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm10.jpg (TATF p.95) keen eyes will have spotted this in one of the pics above... http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/verticalzimm.jpg

Another observation of the "standard" patterns is that the vertical lines between columns are generally not recessed lines to define the columns but seem to be ridges - likely just slight build up or excess of zimmerit at the edges of the "putty knife" used. Also the individual horizontal ridges don't seem to be perfectly straight - the tool used to apply it must have had a great deal of flex - they quite often seem "wavy" in appearance.

And from what I've seen the zimm doesn't appear to have been a very smooth paste when it was applied. Maybe it just wasn't mixed very well. It often appears somewhat lumpy and gritty in parts

One strange thing to me is that there are few pics that show the rear turret bins freshly blown off (supports still intact) and damaged zimm underneath them, indicating that it is likely the turrets were zimmed before the bins were attached. I need to investigate this one further.

And let us not forget that zimmerit was applied by humans with all the problems that go with that. It wasn't perfectly applied by machines and actually often appears quite messy, uneven and varies enormously when viewed close up. See earlier pics and these too (from Tigers on the Eastern Front p.55 and p.56) http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm7small.jpg http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm7.jpg The first pic shows it small and it looks relatively neat, the second shows it in close-up and you can see it wasn't always as neat as we think. I imagine the average modeller would think this a poor job on a model because of it being messy, nowhere near parallel columns and generally uneven... but... it is real!

I believe the only 1/1 scale Tiger 1 with zimmerit is the Saumur Tiger 1 (now on loan to Munster) but I seem to recall reading somewhere that this was... "kindly re-zimmed" by the owners. I don't know if this was in selected areas or the whole Tiger. An indication of it's enthusiastic re-zimming is that there is zimmerit applied to some areas where it just shouldn't be... on top of the completely inaccurate remains of rear mud guards (I assume post war addition like the front ones) and other areas - but at least they didn't zimm over the battle damage! Oh well, what's done is done.

Good luck with the roller idea WW. It's always worth experimenting and you may get great results. Keep us informed. I think it doesn't matter what method you use as long as you are happy with the results. And of course it's always worthwhile practising over and over again on scrap until you are confident and can do it almost without thinking. Jeff, the "new material" sounds fab! And it could be easily tinted with acrylic paint (ochre) to make it an authentic colour, which will be great for us guys who are going to run them about and no doubt get a little battle damage in the process!

I haven't checked the King's zimm specifics (I'll do so in future) but I suggest that whatever you do on the Tiger 1 (if you are doing it), use the same application method and probably the same scale on your Porsche/Henschel King and check references for the individual turret zimm idiosyncrasies.

This is probably good advice to all who are trying to do their zimm accurately... check all the reference material you can of the model, and then specifically check the unit and company that you are trying to represent and base your decisions on those references. All the books the pics were scanned from are great and well worth buying!

I firmly believe (I'm no expert) that more than 80%? of Tiger 1 zimmerit roughly adhered to the style shown earlier at this link http://www.btinternet.com/~wladyslaw/tiger/zimm8.jpg so if in doubt I recommend you base it on this "standard" pattern. I've highlighted the oddities throughout this post but that just proves that human beings with something malleable under their control... will be human... And please bear in mind that these are oddities, the vast majority seem to be like the last link.

I hope all of this hasn't confused you all but explains a little about the idiosyncrasies of zimmerit that I have discovered and how much it varied, and how much it was similar. I've enjoyed the process and will try to add to it to clear up any mistakes I've made through rushing the post. Please feel free to totally ignore my post entirely, and to disagree with it entirely or in part, and to post replies to my ramblings.

Regards,

Wlad.
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:18 PM
John is great people. I've gotten the late TIger conversion kit from him last week.

Jeff
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: S.C. Beach
Posted by roowalker on Thursday, September 15, 2005 4:23 PM
Hey all!!
Could anyone give me some feedback on recent
transactions with BYA? Getting ready to order some
more goodies & I'd like to give 'em a try,based on what
y'all may have to comment...
Thanks,
Roowalker
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:34 AM
Ok, here's the secret...well, maybe it's not a secret to someone else...

It's Liquitex Modeling paste...it's basically a polymer emulsion gel with marble dust mixed in.

I've used clear gel medium for years to simulate water on ship models, and noticed this stuff when I went to pick up some gel for a ship project.

I applied it to the turret of my King Tiger and spread it out. I typically use a small screwdriver to do Zimmerit, and I found out that you have to wait a few minutes before starting to imprint the putty, otherwise, it's too soft and you don't get a clean imprint from the zim tool.

I typically apply the putty in about 1/8 inch thickness, and let it set for 2-3 minutes before I start working it. Fortunately, you have about 15 minutes to completely remove it if you mess it up. Unlike a hot knife or Squadron putty, it doesn't attack the plastic underneath. Once it's dry, you can sand the zimmerit to smooth down the contrast, or...add more to build it up.

Here's a link to the stuff:

http://www.liquitex.com/Products/gelmedmodelingpaste.cfm

I'll post a photo of my Tiger II turret tonight.

Jeff
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:50 PM
Fortunately for me...I'm zimmerit-ing both Tigers so my weld fillets will be a moot point, however, I typically make thin strands of Milliput and squish them, then as they set I'll texture them with a putty knife.

As for the bottom of my Tiger II, I hadn't given it any thought to be honest, since I'm hoping to display the model either half-buried in debris or in semi-tall grass...either way, I intend to make sure you can't see much underneath.

I've considered countersinking the screws and then simply filling them in. By the time I weather and muddy up the underside, you won't be able to see them.

Track tensioners will be the same...once I get everything together, I'll solder the tensioner to the inside of the hull and then grind the heads off the underside. I've replaced the upper engine deck screws with flush-heads, and I'll fill those with putty and sand smooth just before I paint. Until I finish blanking off the engine compartment, I still need access to the hull interior.

BTW, I've stumbled onto a new material for Zimmerit. I'll share the secret after I get home tonight to see how it's dried. I'm actually pretty excited if this comes out like I hope.

Jeff
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: S.C. Beach
Posted by roowalker on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 3:31 PM
[sound of brush being parted,stumble into clearing].....
Hey Jeff !
Know you mentioned that you're building your Tigers for display,& I
was interested in a couple of areas & how you will approach 'em...
Weld fillets: I've used .030 -.040 quarter round & home made
"hot tool" to sculpt mine on both TI & KT.. Thinking on possibly
using multiple pieces of .010 /.015 laid in parallel to the direction
of the seam...may simulate prototype practice better???
How are you going to tackle the bottom of the hull on your TI?
I'm warming up to start on mine,& I'm thinking of "plating" over
with .030 sheet after either counter-sinking what screws have to
be there or possibly a soldering technique to secure stuff before
the cover up...But what about the track tensioners? Preset & solder?
or maybe cover 'em up with the access hatches as a last step ?
Regards,
Roowalker in the Wilderness
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, September 10, 2005 1:35 AM
Hey, I'm here... Thumbs Up [tup]

I think... Confused [%-)]

Somewhere... Whistling [:-^]

Just don't go counting my marbles... I already know I'm a few short. Sigh [sigh]

Anyway we can 'ping' all the former members and tell 'em we're still in business? Just a randon thou... whoops, gone. Zzz [zzz]
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, September 7, 2005 4:45 PM
(Cricket's chirping...slight breeze blowing)

Anyone here??? Confused [%-)]

JH
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: S.C. Beach
Posted by roowalker on Monday, September 5, 2005 9:14 AM
Hey W.W.!!
This debate,to my knowledge,has gone on for at least 30 yrs.
Kind of like,"Who Killed The Red Baron?"
Quite possible that we will never know for sure.
However Wittmann will always be an exemplary Leader & Tanker
for me,& he helped immortalize the Tiger I as we all know .
Roowalker
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, September 4, 2005 12:57 PM
Dilemma : Who killed Wittman's Tiger?

I've searched the net, and gotten a few possible answers. But who's right?

One says it was a Hawker 'Typhoon' that put an HE rocket through the engine deck and caused an ammo explosion that blew the turret off. Some discount this as there are no records of kills that day from that area.

Another says the 4th Canadian Armoured Division had surrounded the Tiger and destroyed it with a platoon of Shermans. This claim can be doubted in that their main thrust had taken place through the town of Rocquancourt.

Yet another claim has the Polish 1st Armoured division taking credit, but the line taken by the Poles actually took them east of St. Aignan-de-Cramesnil. Moreover, they did not cross their start line until 13:55, more than an hour after Wittmann had been reported missing.

Finally there is the 'Firefly Ambush" which has the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry (RAC) and the Sherbrooke Fusiliers (27th CAR) shooting it up.

Records for the Sherbrookes were lost later that day when their RHQ was destroyed, but they claim the Tiger was facing the orchard where the 1st NY were deployed (hence the Sherbrookes had the rear shot...)

The 1st NY claim records that say a Sherman VC "Firefly" commanded by Sergeant Gordon (gunner - Trooper Joe Ekins) from 3rd Platoon, "A" Squadron, 33rd Armored Brigade of 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry got the 'kill'.

The Sherman VC "Firefly" armed with 17 pounder gun was fully capable of penetrating Tiger's armor at range of 800m, and they claimed three Tigers on that hill (12:40, 12:47 & 12:52 - supposedly Wittman's was #2) Tiger #2 took two shots to the right rear quarter before blowing, say the 1st NY records.

But at 12:55 hours, SS-Hauptschführer Hans Höflinger of 2nd Kompanie (LSSAH) claims to have seen Wittmann's Tiger in a stationary position but still intact.... The 1NY say they got #3 ~AFTER~ the 2nd Tiger had returned fire, been hit and blown.

Is it possible that 1st NY saw a primary explosion between :47 & :52, Höflinger saw it at :55, and a short time later an internal explosion blew the turret off? Did 1st NY log Wittmann's Tiger wrong and it was #3? Was it actually killed by a shot from the Sherbrookes? Did a Typhoon kill an already dead 007, causing the deck damage later and blowing the turret off?

Mr.Serge Varin claims the only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine deck... but that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. Could he have missed the shelll holes?

Who's the best authority on this?
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:58 PM
Mike,

I had thought about that myself, but after talking with John from Backyard Armor (I'm getting his late Tiger I conversion) he tells me the stuff to get is Aves putty. I'm told it's easy to work with, is forgiving, and dries rock-hard and adheres well...

Since I've done lots of Zim in 1/35 scale, this should be fairly easy for both of my Kitties.

PS: I think I'm going to start scratchbuilding a JS-2 in 1/16 scale...just for kicks. I know it doesn't have anything to do with Tigers, other than it was the only tank capable of going nose-to-nose until the Pershing showed up.

Jeff
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: S.C. Beach
Posted by roowalker on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:02 PM
Another idea,although I am not planning on "Zimming " any of my Tiger
group... Why not take some Evergreen sheet, .020 for example,& do the
Zimmerit # with a "hot Knife " set up,& then cut out & glue the sheet to your
existing kit components? I use a wood burning kit with homemade tips
& a homemade temp control to do "welding" for detail on my Hogs,
& I'm certain the same technique would work ,with practice, if
one wants Zimmerit.
Regards,
Mike
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 3:50 AM
Jeff:

I have the Tamiya KT Sticky-Zimm, I was going to use photo-copies of that for cutting templates after I rolled and marked my 'Zimm-Sheets'. I've read the PanzerWorld & Track-Link articles, and from descriptions both T1 and KT used the ridged method, so no hassles there... but... Sign - Off Topic!! [#offtopic]

The Tankograd images show a MUCH finer and less apparent 'ridge-pattern' on the turret & hull of the Porsche KT turret... odd. This may cause me a few problems as I'd hoped to dual-use my KT hull (interchanging Porsche & Henschel turrets) Mebbe I can use the Sticky-Zimm for the Porsche? But that is not a T1 problem... (though it ~is~ a Tiger, eh?) Whistling [:-^]

I anticipated that by the time I have made 'sheets' for most of the regular flat surfaces that I'd be confident enough to begin doing it directly on the hull surface in the odd areas: around the turret pistol ports, mantlet surface & escape hatch and the hull MG port. After seeing the Tankograd method, I ~may~ start small, possibly practicing with plasticine (modelling clay) to get my method smooth... and doing smaller areas (like the transom plates)

As for my 'calibrated roller', its just a variation of the WW2MM idea of using styrene strips to regulate the thickness. His 'calibrator' is loose on the deck, mine is part of the roller. I still think my wax paper is better... no talcum contamination or hand-oils when you handle it to place it on the model. Or better yet, use the odd 'no-stick' sheets used for latex, vinyl and fibreglas patch application (much like adhesive sticker backing)

For spacing on the vertical lines and now many ridges per cm, I can either go through all my images, measure and take a median, or use the spacing on the Sticker-Zimm. I know a bunch of guys that have done it over on the ArmorHut... I'll ask them about accuracy of the pattern of the stickers, even if the pattern is too blunt.

Anyone else have some input? Wlad? (who-all is still here?)
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Monday, August 29, 2005 11:00 AM
The thickness on the hull shouldn't be more than 2-3mm deep. The spacing depends on the pattern you choose, since the Tiger did carry several types of patterns. Here's a few links to sites that helped me out. Without having my hull in front of me with calipers, I can't really tell you the dimensions. However, the King Tiger has the plastic adhesive Zim panels, I'll measure those dimensions tonight and post them here. JH

http://tankomania.com/data/e/27b.html
http://www.panzerworld.net/zimmerit.html
http://www.track-link.net/articles/15
http://www.ww2modelmaker.com/articlepub/zimmmb.htm
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Monday, August 29, 2005 1:08 AM
Zimmerit: To Take the Risk or Not...

Ok... I know some of you have done this, and its looks great, but I've ~never~ modelled Zimmerit before, but have read all the articles I can get my connection to copy. Here is my dilemma:

Tamiya parts are not cheap, we all know that. Especially the parts for the 1/16 monsters. I don't want to take the risk and start just to mess up and have to start over with a new hull. Paying someone isn't a good option either, as I doubt I can afford the job I want done.

Now I have thought of a way to take a limited risk, and want to run it past you all, with need for some input on details. The idea is home-made Zimmerit sheets (yep, its that simple)

Here is the method, simply put: (I may add pics once I try it)
- you apply your putty to wax-paper or onion-skin, like making cookies...
- you get uniform thickness by making a calibrated roller: bolt some washers of X diameter on either end of a roller, making the middle of the roller stand off Y mm.
- you roll out the putty like cookie dough, cut a straight edge, and work from there.
- if you mess up, you've got time to correct before it dries without risking the hull.
- if your sheet is to be applied to a curve (like the T1 or KT turret) let the putty begin to set up, then lay the sheet on the curved surface to dry.
- carefully trim your 'sheet' to fit the relevant panel. Scraps, if planned right, can be used for mud guards and other small areas.
- then glue in place, and all you have to do is tweak the seams where panels meet.

Simple enough? I want to use the gear-roller method, so my main problems are these:
- how thick should the covering be on a 1/16 hull?
- whats the width & spacing of the grooves?

Once I know those things I can assemble my roller and begin (and mebbe show off the images of it)
  • Member since
    January 2003
Posted by Jeff Herne on Friday, August 26, 2005 8:23 AM
Started working on my Tiger I hull last night. I figured I might just as well do both the Tiger I and Tiger II at the same time, since I have to mix about a gallon of paint for each.

I started adding zimmerit to the hull of the Tiger I...since it'll be converted into a late-war version with steel wheels and second version commander's cupola.

Tiger II is the Henschel version, added the kit-provided zimmerit to one side of the hull, but it looks terrible, so I'll be removing that this weekend and going with the putty method.

Let's see if we can get this thread back on track...no pun intended. Tigers, Tigers, Tigers!

Jeff
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, August 20, 2005 10:47 PM
Carib:

ETO is not the only supplier. BackYard Armor is the other major North American one. And quite often, they may ship cheaper than Bob will. If you're going to make a big order, get a hard quote first.

As for idlers... Ask the battlers at Danville. Many of these mechanism mods have come about because of battle-events, or to make the tanks as realistic as possible for the events. As I noted, many of them hang in the ArmorHut... you want their opinions, just ask.

It all depends on if you want a glitzy static hanger queen, or a battle-worthy battle-tank. What good are small metal handles (or any other small metal replacement item) that get knocked off on a large battlefield, and wasting your $? As I said before, ask the guys... they ~know~ what falls off...
  • Member since
    February 2004
Posted by tomzag on Friday, August 19, 2005 8:56 AM
CaribMar,
go to etoarmor.com, check the list against your budget. put everything in if you have the money. personally, I do not worry about motors and gear reduction that much if you do not run that tank in Danville. but it is nice to have if you have the budget.
but Daryl's gearbox brace is a must have first, I do not know if modify it to work with the suspension upgrade, ask him. i remember that the brace and suspension did not work together in my last king tiger.
good luck.
http://tomsrctanks.com
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 19, 2005 12:40 AM
Thank you Tomzag & Whitewolf for your replies you have set me on the right track!!
- Will the metal barrel interfere with the recoil?
- Do I need anything else besides the gear reduction? I've read a lot about the black long motors, do I need a new motor in addition to the gear reduction?
Thanks for your expertise gentleman.

P.S. I'll work on my profile
  • Member since
    February 2004
Posted by tomzag on Thursday, August 18, 2005 7:08 AM
I have built over 30 tigers for customer. 60% were with metal track without gear reduction and idler upgrade. I have not been told even one case that some thing break.
the King tiger, you may need ideler upgrade, for tiger1, you do not have to.
I wish I had courage to tell people how to build tank even I had not built a single one yet 5 years back.
http://tomsrctanks.com
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