ARMOR - Panther (PzKpfw V) Group Build (any scale)

Eric,
the thread was:
http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15168
and the link it referred to was:
http://www.gjames.com.au/chris/t34/t34-service-7.html

you might be overstating it when you say "there shouldn't be any sag"
the 'manual' says : "2. Check the track tension"
but gives no reference to how tight or loose it should be.
it also mentions lubing the 'track adjustment mechanism'

but that is about it.

well, i was allowed to borrow the obsolete photo table.
but i have not been able to get it set up to my liking yet.
close, maybe.
the fact that the bulb in one side is twice as bright as the one on the other side does not help much.
nor does the fact that it was designed to shoot pictures from directly overhead.
i rotated it 90 degrees, and build a new (cardboard) platform, using the old one
as a back drop.
but there are still lighting issues.
sigh.

ed.

ed.

Too bad I couldn't remember the thread that stated how Russian tank crews were supposed to check on their tracks and so on. In other words, there shouldn't be any sag on their tanks.

I certainly didn't mean to maline indy tracks or to disuade anyone from trying them. If I did, even temporarily, I appologize. I enjoy, for the most part, the indy's I've just been having a lot of trouble with the ones for the Panther. I think they are misengineered, but I'm only talking about the Panther! For my next one, I'll get a set of Friuls. I didn't mind having to "clean the holes" up. I put a drill in my pin vice, held it up to see that the drill was long enough go go to the last link, but not through it, clamped down the pin vice and went to it. It really wasn't much more work than not doing it. In fact, since I held the two links together, it made sure the holes in the links were all lined up. Then I took the coil of supplied wire and pushed in into the two mated links 'til it reached the end. Then I cut off the wire (using fine tipped wire cutters, not sprue cutters) off about a quarter of an inch from the link. and put a small drop of thick (do not use thin) super glue on the join for the wire and the link. I'd do about 10 links or more, then let them set for a while. Over night, usually, but that was because I did them late at night. Next day, I'd go back and trim of the wire as close as I could to the link. Watch for flying wire!! Use eye protection for this one! I tried thin super glue on a couple of links thinking it would set up faster and I wouldn't have to wait for the glue to set up. Well, that part was right, but the thin glue wicked down the wire and froze the link. Next set, I will probably use thin brass rod instead of the supplied wire, though. Sometime the wire catches and kinks up a little going through the links. I think the rod will go through a little easier.

I was going to put a plastic ring on the bottom of the turret, after putting the turret in the hull, to hold the turret to the hull. But I think I've changed my mind. The turret is so heavy (being an almost solid block of resin) that I think it will make it more difficult to transport it if it's attached. So I'm just going to set the turret in the hole in the hull. I didn't get much of anything else done last night, as about half of my family, including me, is sick. Mostly I just worked on repinning the tracks. I think I'm gaining on them!! lol

Have fun.

Nick, Yep the Russian iron just don't look right with nice tight tracks... That would be a good tester... Good luck...

kenneth thanks man...i think i might just give 'em a go! i've got a is-2 and isu-152 awaiting construction, and i guess that russian armour probably benefits the most from the "saggy" look that only indie tracks can give.
just needed that reassurance!
regards,
nick

NIck, I perfectly understand about not wanting to do the manufacturers job for them. No doubt. I have built two sets of fruils (one for a Styer tractor and one just the other day for a King Tiger) Both had to have at least a quarter of the links poked through with a needle. It seems common though some sets have more than others. I like the fruils because there is just a bit over zero concentration required to build them. I built this last set while watching movies in the evenings. I don't mess with trying to cut the wire to length or any of that. I did that on the first set and it about drove me nutz. I just lop the wire into lengths a little long, pin them in an go back with a set of flush cutting clippers and dress'em up. Bottome line is just give them a go some time. Yes they are pricey, but they are not always needed. (on the KT they were very needed) If you build as slow as I do it isn't really a problem. Those guys who are superbuilders and knock out a kit in a couple of weeks might have a problem.
I think I can speak for everyone in that we didn't mean or want to "open up a can of worms" but at the same time I / we didn't want to discourage anyone from trying anything new.... Point of the hobby it to have fun... if it ain't fun or at least gratifying in the end don't do it....But do try it for yourself.. don't take our rumblings to heart...

Later Friend

Petbat,
i agree w/ you abt natural sunlight.
but it is winter here, so it is dark when i leave for work at 6:30 am,
and darkening hen i return home around 5:00pm
and today is very cloudy & overcast.
maybe on the weekend.
or maybe i will be able to borrow the lights.
i appreciate the tip on the light blue.
i have been using a tan/cream (manilla folder) background.

ed.

oops! seem to have opened a real can of worms with my comments on indie track links![:0]
i do appreciate the comments you guys made, really. it's just that when i see what i assume to be modellers far more experienced than i having problems, i just think, "what chance do i have?"
i actually bought a set of fruil indies for my churchill tank a while back, and really liked the look of them...in the bag!! i was shocked (naive) to find that i had to find the ultra thin yet strong wire myself with which to thread them all together, AND the fact that i would have had to re-drill most of the holes where this wire was supposed to go!! i think it was that bit that got me the most!!
is this common place? i have nothing against them in principle, and though the time taken in construction is a bit of an issue for me, i kind of draw the line at doing the manufacturer's job for him...bit like buying a dog and barking yourself!!
am i missing something here? or did i just pick a bum set from a bum manufacturer??
i'm open to persuasion....honest!!
regards,
nick

Thanks gents, I painted the cammo right over them, so it would look natural.

The fruilmodel tracks are tough as hell when finished ( if you put too many together when attaching them to the tank , you better have a jackhammer to unattach them ! You could even use them for tire chains for your car in a bad snowstorm ! The MK's I have no experience with at all yet , that is going to change soon as I am a glutton for punishment !

WW. I used natural daylight for all the pics I have posted in the armour forum. I put the model on a table that is reasonably close to a window, but not where the sunlight actually comes in as this washes out the pics.

I take the shot with the light coming in from say 7-8 o'oclock (as I stand looking at the model at a 12 o'clock position). I also find that taking the shot on a light blue sheet helps give better colour definition. Taking the pic down low (almost side on) negates a lot of shadow and gives more of a dramatic pose (in my opinion anyway ).

Nick. All indy tracks are different and one set by one manufacturer may be great, the next set by them not so. I have heard some guys in my club comment on how they had more cleaning out of holes on one set of Fruil tracks than another set of the same track. They are like everything else in modelling, you need practice to make perfect. I hated PE when I first tried using it, now I am more comfortable. I have used the dragon indy tracks on a BMP3, the old separatly boxed Panzer IV early tracks and the 38T and the Panther. They take a lot of care to keep straight; the BMP ones ended up curling when left to cure, and I had to break and redo them. The Panzer IV and 38t went on without a hitch. The Panther, whilst not yet glued into runs, fitted together nicely just on masking tape, as I posted for a pic a while back.

Give indy tracks a go before dismissing them. Despite the few breaks Bill and Kenneth have experienced, think about the breakages you have caused to parts on a kit during painting. Breakages is all part of the fun of modelling.

Spent the night drilling out the tow cable and clevis mounting posts for the home made retaining pins and also wrestling with tool clamps. Hey Bill, I bought a fret of clamps from a company called Voyager out of the PRC. Just as fidelly as the Aber ones we had so much 'fun' with, but these Chinese ones are a lot more fragile. I broke 2 of the U handle bits at the joins just trying to maneuvre them into the correct position. After getting 2 others right, I got a bit frustrated with them, so I went back to the Eduard Zoom one piece ones I had originally intended to use. Not as pretty, but as effective after painting I should think. Have to buy a higher magnification glass as my eyes aren't what they used to be, and the old magnifying glass is not as much help anymore.

I forgot to mention that i re-routed the cables on my Panther.
not sure if the solution is better than the orignal problem or not!

no pics as yet, as i was fighting w/ the camera & lighting.
trying to borrow our old photo table from work.
it has two strong lights on it & has been in a closet for years.
but i have to get permission.

ed.

Nick, yes, it is I having all the troubles. But these are the first ones I've had this kind of trouble with (I've done two other sets). I think it's just the way they made the Panther links. Next Panther will hve Friul links, I think. What I should have done was to lay the tracks down over a piece of masking tape. That would have taken a lot of the stress off the pins until I got them mounted on the tank. I had very little trouble with the Fruil's I did for my Pkzw II.

Going to mount the turret today, and hopefully get at least the first camo color done. I still have the single exhaust clamp to modify. (I really wish I had a small pe set for this guy! It would really help!)

Have a great day.

Nick,

QUOTE: firstly, i'm never going to buy aftermarket indie tack-links as kenneth's post scared me off!! no way i'm going to invest all that time (and money) when the stuff just falls apart!

...huh what did I say? I only had 2 break... Bill (wipw) is the one who is haveing all the trouble. I don't want to steer anyone away. I love the indi links. True they are a bit more of a headache and somewhat fragile when done but no more than the rest of them model. I was discussing the Fruilmodel tracks the other day on here (forgive me I forget who with) anyway... we were commenting on how tough those were... If durability is an issue then Fruils are the way to go no doubt but the MKs are finer... Like I said I don't want to scare anyone... and if I did say something along those lines then please disregard it.

Eric, Yeah... I painted them just like the surrounding camo. They are air Inlets so not much to soot up unless like claymore said there had been a fire.

Nick,
sounds like you are coming along nicely.

Bill,
keep plugging! you will beat those tracks into submission!
sounds like the turret is almost there, so the hull join can't be far behind.

Eric,
glad you are back at it, and i wish i had some advice on the grilles.
i just painted over mine so they looked (kind of) part of the camo.
i did not think to do much w/ them, as i assumed (ho, ho!)
that they were on the intake side.
i figured they would not be darkened unless there had been a fire in the engine bay!

ed.

firstly, i'm never going to buy aftermarket indie tack-links as kenneth's post scared me off[:0]!! no way i'm going to invest all that time (and money) when the stuff just falls apart!
anyway, dull-coated my panther g and dry-brushed some silver (can't remember exact colour) over the edges like handles on the turret etc, and the raised bits of the tracks. i was quite pleased with the result but have yet to see it in proper daylight (the only true test).
only the pastels to add tonight if i get time, then maybe some mud, but will have to get advice from you guys about that first..
i also put some SS troops milling about on the engine deck (some sittin, some standing), to give the whole affair a bit more of a scale effect.
regards,
nick

Sheesh, finally made some progress. I got my ambush leaves painted on. Tomorrow i hope to start weathering. Dumb question, but what would be the ideal way to weather the grilles.

Kenneth, my thoughts have been running along exactly those lines!! lol

Bill

Bill, man that sucks you had so much trouble with the MKs... I hate that for you because they are really good. I had thought at one time about glueing them all together once they were on the tank and lock them down... May not be a horrible idea? Take it easy...

Yeah, Ed, I did. Just not as much as I was hoping. I got the turret pretty much finished and primed. I glued up the cleaning tool case and the ugly seam lines cleaned up and got it glued on. I got a headlight from the Tamiya PZ IV On Vehicle Equipment Set. Boy does it look better than the kit headlight. I think I'm going to use the machine gun mount for the commanders cupola from that set, too. I got the driver figure painted and glued in. (Should have gone with an AM figure for this.) And I got the turret rings I made glued onto the bottom of the turret. Then I got the upper hull and turret painted dunkelgelb. I was going to put the green camo color on today, but decided to wait until I have the turret mounted and the upper and lower hulls glued together. Getting to the hulls being glued together was my goal, so I almost made it. I had to add another layer of turret ring and let the glue totally dry before mounting the turret, which has to happen before gluing the hulls together!

My big disappointment (seems there's always at least one) has been the stupid MK tracks. If they would have just manufactured them with the pins even 1 mm longer, they would have been SO much stronger! Every time I touch them, I break at least one more link! At one point, I had it down to two breaks. Now, I've got at least 4 (the other two have been fixed, so these are new ones!), and 6 broken (with 2 of them being lost) guide teeth. That from my fat thumbs when drilling out the link and gluing in a piece of brass rod in place of the weak plastic pins. I know what to watch for on the next set, though. I'll garantee the metal pins won't break out!

I guess Rons site is still down. I was going to post some pics, but can't get to the upload page.

Kenneth,
you had me cracking up!
no figures w/ my kit. there was one in the box,
but i quickly determined he would not fit through the top turret hatch,
so i put him in 'spares'.
the figures tend to drive me nuts anyway.

Peter,
detail looks very good.
you are an ambitious fellow!
glad you like the paint on mine.
i will agree it is 'unusual'.
it is not what i was trying to do, but it is what i ended up w/ !
another learning experience.

Larry,
glad to hear the paint sorted out.
i know the feeling!

Bill,
get any work done over the weekend?

ed.

QUOTE: I'm just going to use pure isopropyl from now on as the major component of my thinner. I always add some tamiya thinner, as tamiya's paints react not quite perfectly to pure isopropyl, IMHO. (YMMV.)

I like to use half water half isopropyl and some flowaid for good luck when I thin acrylics... You can get flow aid at Hobby Lobby in the art painting supplies...it retards the acrylics drying time a bit (few seconds) to make it run through an airbrush better.

Glad you got that all worked out... Shew... Sounds like your right on track... I can't wait to see it...

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kennethc Larry, Stay calm now... What do you think the problem is? Of course this is a few days later so you are probably way past this point but as a heads up to the rest of us... did you figure it out...

Yeah, it settled down. You know how it is when you put a lot of time into a model and then you first put paint in it. "Oh no, ruined!" The coat tightened up fine when it dried.

In fact, about an hour ago I went over it with the first highlight coat, this one of 50% Tamiya Dark Yellow and 50% flat earth. I diluted it to 25% -- the diluting agent was 1/3 Tamiya thinner and 2/3 windshield wiper fluid. The wiper fluid made me feel a little tight chested, as I was working in an an area that just couldn't be completely ventilated (I had an open window, but it was fairly far from where I was working). I'm not gonna use it any more -- assuming I don't die in the interim, that is! [:0]

I'm just going to use pure isopropyl from now on as the major component of my thinner. I always add some tamiya thinner, as tamiya's paints react not quite perfectly to pure isopropyl, IMHO. (YMMV.)

Next comes the straight dark yellow (basically the same as the previous coat, just slightly lighter), followed by dark yellow + buff (lighter still than the pervious spray), and finally pure buff (extremely light). I may spray a very light coat of heavily diluted black/brown around the edges (90% thinner, 10% black/brown). I'll finish up painting with a series of oil washes on the decks, and then I'll try pastel chalks for the first time!

And then there are all the things I've forgotten about! Like the wheels, the schurtzen, the tools, the treads. I think I have to paint them too.

Very impressive Peter, you have patience. Looking forward to more.

Petbat, Its looking awsome pal... Everything looks great...

Larry, Stay calm now... What do you think the problem is? Of course this is a few days later so you are probably way past this point but as a heads up to the rest of us... did you figure it out...

All, I worked on figures all weekend. I have about got them all built. I spent most of saturday sorting out my figure parts to see what I had and what I didn't have.... At about midnight after many hours of sorting body parts I was going a bit mental... I caught myself chanting...."It puts the lotion on its skin" so I decided to stop and go to bed...

It will take some time to get them painted so wish me luck...

Pete,

My wife requested me to build her a ship with masts/sails. I think I'll be busy with that for a while.

Thanks Dwight. It is reasonably detailed for what you can actually see, but don't use it as a basis for a top off viewing. He. He. It is pretty dark inside the joined kit, but in daylight you still can see a lot. The weathering doesn't need to be as subtle as the outside, simply due to gradiant shading being lost in the dark, so it is probably a little heavy to make the detail stand out - I didn't want to waste the effort..

So now the Shermie build is finished for you...what are you up to model wise.

Looks incredibly detailed, Pete. Can't wait till she's completed.

WW. Finally got to see your pics. You picked an unusual scheme for painting, but it looks quite effective - I like it.

Ron's site is not working at present, so I have posted some pics of the painted interior of my Ausf D on my web site. Can't link pics, so page is:
http://www.geocities.com/petbat1961/panther03.html?1076900959000

Forgot to paint the brass shell cases up to the projectile head before I took the pics . I scratched the paint off whilst sticking them into the completed rack, so had to touch up the black and brass. Was going to put stencilling on them, but you can barely see the projectiles with the hull roof on.

Theme for the dio is to be of a newly commisioned Ausf D broken down on the side of the road, so minimal wear and tear would be visible on the interior - hence very little chipping.

As I said in a past post, I had to redo the Driver's panel as the original I made ended up being wrong for the D.

Tried some stuff called Humbrol 'Clear fix' on the gauge faces. The label says to use it to fix clear parts to kits and for making windows in airliners.....yeah right. It shrinks like blazes and dries uneven. The light reflects badly off the face in the pic, but is much better when viewed inside the model when the roof is on. Guess I'll just use it to glue lenses in headlights in future.

The routing of the cabling for the radios to the right was a guess on my part , based on pics of the command radios, which have the extra reciever on top. I figured the junction boxes would be down there with the aerial connection box, away from the hatch area to prevent damage by the operator going in and out. You can't see that end of the radios through the hatch, so it doesn't really matter.

Roof is now glued on. Have thinned all the kit track and tool racks ready for assembly. I agree with (?) that the PE ones look good, but do seem a little thin. The DML ones are not bad aside from ejector pin marks on the face.

Tool clasps are being shaved off in prep for the eduard replacements today.

Woo Hoo, light at the end of the tunnel; this will be the first kit I have actually finished since I started modelling again just over a year ago.

Your models are looking great, keep it up!