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Resurrected WIP.... M60A1 w/M9 Dozer....Call'n it DONE

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  • Member since
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  • From: NE Massachusetts
Resurrected WIP.... M60A1 w/M9 Dozer....Call'n it DONE
Posted by 1SG Davis on Friday, June 12, 2009 7:41 PM

Just scored an Italeri M60A1 in my LHS 50% off sectionSmile.  I'd like to build this up as an early M60A1 with a solid OD paint scheme.  I've got a few questions that I need some help with.

#1 the O/D paint from Tamiya (XF-62) and Model Master (34087) both seem to be a little too "green" when compared to some color pictures of early O/D M-60A1's I've found, the picture's seem to show a darker more brownish O/D.  Is there a different color that matches better?

#2 Could the later T142 octagonal be found on a O/D M60A1 or would I need to use the earlier "chevron" style track?

#3 Would Academy's M9 Dozer Blade set be appropriate to add to an early O/D M60A1?

#4 Does anyone know of some good pictures?  I've found just a few  (Toadmans & Prime Portal pictures seem to be mostly MERDC & Europe 1)

Hope to be able to post some WIP pictures soon.

Thanks,

Gary / 1SG

  • Member since
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  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Friday, June 12, 2009 8:48 PM

Top - For that VN and post VN all green I use XF 13 JA Green, it is closed to what was used then. You can also lighten up the XF62 OD wit about 15 - 20% XF 60 Dark Yellow though that will be closer to early OD.

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

ASA
  • Member since
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Posted by ASA on Friday, June 12, 2009 8:50 PM

In the 1971 to 1973 timeframe I worked at a Army NG Consite with numerous M60 and M48 tanks.  These tanks were painted in OD (sorry, dont know the shade) with white stars and USA numbers.  Sometime during that period we started to replace directional tracks (chevron) with the new non-directional (block).  I beleive either tracks will work for the paint scheme you desire.

Billy/1SG

  • Member since
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  • From: Central Wisconsin
Posted by Spamicus on Friday, June 12, 2009 9:03 PM
Model Master acryl line has two viable start points for the dark OD. One is called US Army Helo Drab and the other is called Green Drab. You may need to mix some black in to get exactly what you're looking for. The solid rubber chevron track would be more appropriate for an early M60A1, but both would be acceptable if the vehicle being modelled is an old girl still hanging around. AFV club makes decent sets of both tracks as AM parts. I think the M9 blade is okay on an early, but if my memory serves me the old ones had an armored oil tank on the port side replacing the rear sponson box. There were also hydraullic lines (big armored ones) running from the rear of the tank along the bottom of the hull. I haven't been able to find any photos of these features online and didn't take any when I was in the service. Then again my memory may be fooling me, it was a long time agoTongue [:P]. M60A1's have been heavily photographed over the years and there are many on the web. Try a google or ask search, something will most likely turn up.

Steve

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  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:12 AM
I ike using MM Green Drab w/some Black added for the 60s/70s dark OD. The old Pactra Dark Olive Drab was a great match for that color.

 

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  • From: NE Massachusetts
Posted by 1SG Davis on Sunday, June 14, 2009 10:16 PM

Mike, Steve, Billy/1SG, Stikpusher,

Great information guys,  especially with my paint question.  I made a trip back to my LHS this afternoon to get some of the above mentioned paint and a set of the AFV chevron tracks (I figured I'd go old school) I plan on doing a few test mixes with all the suggestions to see what looks best. 

BTW, I do remember 25 years ago or so using that Pactra Dark Olive Drab.  I'm sure if I dusted off some old boxes in the back of my closet I find a dried up bottle or two.  Too bad Pactra paints seem to have disappeared.

Thanks again for the advice, I'll be sure & post my progress.

Gary/1SG

  • Member since
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  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Monday, June 15, 2009 4:12 AM

Hello,

for OD I matched a paint using an old ammo can, and what I use since then is Humbrol 66 with a coat of future on top of that. The result looks like that:

M151

By the way, it's unbelievable how different the color looks before the future coat, it's very close to gray.

I also heard stories about the soldiers washing their vehicles with diesel fuel (this is actually forbidden by the TM's). After that the color gets rich and shiny, but fades quite fast after several repetitions. That could be an excuse for a not-very-exact matchwhen it happens Cool [8D]

Have a nice day

Pawel

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
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  • From: Nebraska, USA
Posted by binder001 on Monday, June 15, 2009 7:29 AM

a few comments;

1) for late 50's early 60's OD, the color "from the can" was close to the model railroad color "Pullman Green" - a very dark, rich color.  Back then, my dad was in the military and brought home a surplus can of OD enamel that he used to paint some tools and other odds and ends in the garage.  A very dark color.  That paint did weather to a bit of a brownish tone. 

2) the finish was officially a semi-gloss.  As mentioned some troopers, prior to inspections or parades, might rub the vehicle down with diesel fuel to get a sheen.

3) The T142 track with the removable octagonal pads didn't come in until the mid-70's.

4) There used to be a great M60 spotter's guide at the AFV News site but it doesn't seem to be there now.  Maybe somebody has a copy they can get to you.  Just remember - original aluminum side-loading air cleaners, no grenade launchers.  If a searchlight was fitted it was the older AN/VSS-2. 

5) I'm not sure when the dozers started being applied to A1's, but the M9 dozer was a direct descendant of the M8 kit used on the M48s so I think the dozer came pretty early.  In the mid 70's (at least) there was a dozer tank in each company, usually the XO's tank (carrying a "65" after the company letter on the bumper codes - the company CO was "66").

6) For more photos see the Squadron M60 in action.

Gary

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, June 15, 2009 10:51 AM

We had the old M9 blades on the M60A3TTS. It used a hydraulic reservoir mounted in place of the left rear sponson box and had two pipes that entered thru the left rear engine access plate. One pipe snaked underneath the suspension to the blade mount. I doubt I ever saw a blade fully operational. Most blade kits available do not contain the characteristic plumbing, but it could probably be scratched with some decent photos and styrene tubing.

I may have some reference photos, but will have to search for them.

  • Member since
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  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Monday, June 15, 2009 10:55 AM

All right, here are some of my old TM scans for the blade's hydralics.


  • Member since
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  • From: Nebraska, USA
Posted by binder001 on Monday, June 15, 2009 12:18 PM

Rob,

those are nice drawings. 

For photos, see; http://picasaweb.google.com/gebinder01/M60S#

Page down to the M60 at the Heartland Museum of Military Vehicles.  They have an M60 with an M9 dozer kit in their collection.

Gary

  • Member since
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  • From: NE Massachusetts
Posted by 1SG Davis on Monday, June 15, 2009 6:52 PM

Once again, fantastic information from all.

Pawel: very nice M151, great detail for such a small 1/35 scale kit.  The color you have there is very close to what I'm looking for. 

Washing the vehicles w/dieselShock [:O]     Now it all starts to make sense why former Army installations chronically turn into EPA superfund sites.Whistling [:-^]

Gary: Great info on the particular vehicle I'm looking to build.  I just got a set of the older cheveron tracks (AFV Club)  The Italeri M60A1 comes with the older side load air cleaners.  I'm going to use the search light from Legend prod. M48A3 acc. kit that I had stashed away. 

The link you posted to your site has one of the best collections of M60 detail shots I've seen yet.  THANKS!!   May hit up the LHS for the M60 in action book next week

Rob: Once again great information.  The drawings are exactly what I need to get the plumbing right.  Between you and Gary I now have no excuse to not get the M9 dozer blade on with all the correct detail.

Time to start cutting off a left rear sponson box

Thanks again, all

Gary/1SG

  • Member since
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  • From: NE Massachusetts
Posted by 1SG Davis on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:33 PM

Its not much, but I've got it started.  Between the kids spring sports finals/playoffs and a new Army assignment I haven't had much time at the bench.

The first thing I did was cut off the L/R sponson box with an xacto knife and smoothed the surface w/extra fine steel wool. 

Next, to make the hydraulic reservoir I cannibalized two air cleaners off an old Tamiya M60A1 that serves as my test rig for paint.  I cut both air cleaners in two and joined the pieces I wanted,  sanded and filled and then added the fill and vent plugs from a verlinden  nut & bolt resin acc.  The bolts around the top cover were made with cut round stock. Two straps on the bottom w/four bolt heads finished it off.

The first picture here shows the L/R sponson cleared off the upper hull, the built hydraulic reservoir along with the remains of the two air cleaners, the resin search light, and some copper wire that I'm going to use for the hoses.

DSCN0402.jpg picture by 1SGDavis

The next picture here is a close up of the reservoir

DSCN0405.jpg picture by 1SGDavis

The last shot is the reservoir sitting on the upper hull

DSCN0407.jpg picture by 1SGDavis

Like I said, not much, but its started. 

I also have a question about the hydraulic lines as run under the tank.  They must have been protected somehow.  Does anyone know what was done?  Did the run the lines through a steel tube welded to the bottom of the hull?

Thanks for looking in, comments & advice always welome

Gary / 1SG

 

  • Member since
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  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:51 AM

Top - The first step is always the hardest. This time of year always bring numerous other things to do.

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
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  • From: Nebraska, USA
Posted by binder001 on Wednesday, June 17, 2009 2:56 PM
 1SG Davis wrote:
I also have a question about the hydraulic lines as run under the tank.  They must have been protected somehow.  Does anyone know what was done?  Did they run the lines through a steel tube welded to the bottom of the hull?

Gary / 1SG

Gary,

I don't recall seeing any other support tubes for them when I shot photos of that M60.  The lines ARE steel tubes.  I just don't recall if they were welded or on brackets (which would seem more likely for repairs).

Gary 

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Thursday, June 18, 2009 8:15 AM
The tubes were steel and they mounted to brackets that fit onto where existing suspension bolts were. A few bolts along the underside of the suspension were removed, replaced by slightly longer bolts and that held the brackets in place.
  • Member since
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  • From: On my kitchen counter top somewhere in central North Carolina.
Posted by disastermaster on Friday, June 19, 2009 2:25 AM

While 'ya working on it, listen to Elvis and have some fun here and here.

What a big kid......

http://www.innovationbyinstinct.com/services/hosting/clients/accountyp/status/DisasterMaster/%23t1-4.jpg

 https://i.imgur.com/LjRRaV1.png

 

 

 
  • Member since
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  • From: NE Massachusetts
Posted by 1SG Davis on Sunday, June 21, 2009 10:01 PM

Gary & Rob, thanks for the info on the plumbing on the underside of the hull for the dozer blade.  That was the last piece of the puzzle I needed to complete that part of the build. 

Agentg, I had originally considered using solder but could only find very thin solder for electronic work and very thick solder for plumbing, nothing in between.  In hindsight however your right, I should have looked harder.  The sold copper wire was a little bit of a bear to shape when things got tight.  On the plus side though my tank will be environmentally friendly

Disastermaster, nice video links.  You can never go wrong with Elvis.  May consider a build like that after I retire.  By then my rotator cuff will be completely shot and I'll need the tennis ball cannon to play fetch with the dog.   To sell the idea to my wife I'll put a mower deck on the bottom.

And now the plumbing

I started off raiding the spare parts box looking for things to use for the fittings.  I stumbled upon road wheel hubs from an Italeri M109 that I had never complete 20+ years ago.  I drilled out the center and shaved off the hat part of the hub. 

DSCN0413.jpg picture by 1SGDavis

To make the 90deg elbows coming out the engine comp.  plate I used exhaust manifolds from Tamiya M113 engine

DSCN0416.jpg picture by 1SGDavis

Now came the copper for the lines.  This shot shows my first mistake with the plumbing, notice the final drive hub is not in mounted and the rubber sprocket splash shield is not on either.  This would come back to haunt me later.

DSCN0417.jpg picture by 1SGDavis

 The hose shield on the fender behind the reservoir  was the most challenging thing to make so far.  I started off trying to use the exhaust snorkel and putty to make the shape I wanted.  That didn't work out too well & I ended up carving the part out of a solid piece resin.  For now it looks okay but it still needs some work

DSCN0421.jpg picture by 1SGDavis

It was about now, as I was almost done with the plumbing that I realized my mistake with the final drive hub & splash shield.  I ended up having to rework two of the three copper lines. (this is where it would have been way easier with solder vs. copper) In the end it came out okay

DSCN0427.jpg picture by 1SGDavis

For the last part of the plumbing I mounted the blade frame and valve box from the Academy kit and connected the lines to the valve box.  I then put the retaining straps onto the pipes over where suspension bolts would be

DSCN0428.jpg picture by 1SGDavis

That's all how she sits now.  Thank you all for the help with details, pictures and links!!!

Thanks for stopping in and looking, comments and insight are always welcome

 

Gary / 1SG

  • Member since
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  • From: I am at play in the fields of the Lord. (Texas)
Posted by m60a3 on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 8:35 PM

 

 Happily subscribing to the thread! Looks cool, First Shirt!

                                                           60

"I lay like a small idea in a vacant mind" - Wm. Least Heat Moon "I am at the center of the earth." - Black Elk My FSM friends are the best.
  • Member since
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  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 5:52 AM

Top - Do you have a union card for that much plumbing????

Looks great, nice progress

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
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  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:37 AM

I'm going to copy this one.......

Nice work!

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: NE Massachusetts
Posted by 1SG Davis on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:23 PM

60: glad to have you drop in & check out the build, should have more this weekend.  I've got an A3 in the stash along w/verlindens engine detail set too.  I hope to get that on deck soon

Mike: Union card.....ah.......nopeDisapprove [V], don't have one.   Hope that doesn't mean I'll need to rip this all out and hire some guy with a card & way too much butt cleavage that charges me $80.00 per hour to reinstall while a police detail @ $45.00 per hr stands by my door sipping coffee talking on a cell phone.  If thats the case I just went way over budget on this buildBig Smile [:D]

Rbaer: Most of the detail on the lower hull is done, just need to finish filling & sanding.  I'm going to try & rough up the road wheels a bit on this one.  I cut & pasted part of a thread a while back on how to do it & wanted to give it a shot here.

Gary / 1SG

  • Member since
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  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:45 AM

I'm actually going to print this one and keep it at the bench (no internet at home). I have a mostly-completed -A3 that needs the plumbing.

Did I miss it or is there a later dozer kit that has the hydraulics all up front?

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: NE Massachusetts
Posted by 1SG Davis on Thursday, June 25, 2009 2:43 PM

RBaer,                                                                                                                         I think all the M9 dozer blades on M60A0 thru M60A3 run the same plumbing.  Rob G or Gary B would know for sure.  The link Gary B put in this thread to his site has some great shots of the plumbing.  It looks like the M9 blade was mounted on a M60A0in those shots.  I just scored Verlinden publications "WARMACHINES N*3 M60A3"  off of E-bay.  It arrived the other day and has three pages dedicated to the M9 dozer blade with 4 great pictures.  The plumbing on that A3 matched the drawing Rob posted and the pictures Gary linked to. 

I would be suprised if there was a dozer blade that had all the plumbing up front.  The hydraulic pump would need to be electrically driven or need a stand alone gas engine to work with everything up front. 

I assume the way it is set up now, in the back the pump is driven off a PTO on the side of the transmission.  Having the pump & reservior in the back probably helps with balance too offsetting the weight of the blade up front

Hope this helps with your project,

Gary /1SG

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Thursday, June 25, 2009 3:59 PM

The only one of the 60 series was the M728 CEV. It had internal hydraulics where a tank would store hull ammunition adjacent to the driver. Most people think it was a modified M60A1, but it was actually a purpose-built combat engineer vehicle based on the M60 chassis and a turret based on the M60A1 turret.

The blade tanks were normally the -65 tank assigned to the tank company XO. The blade weight gave the A3 a better, stable platform to fire the extremely powerful "wiffle ball" sabot rounds.

  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by M60Tanker on Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:40 PM

Good stuff here!  One of these days I hope to build a model of each tank I was assigned to, so I'm interested in y'alls experiences/expertise in building these models.  I had a "blade tank" M60A1 (RISE) the last year I spent with 3/77 Armor (5ID) at Ft Polk LA 1976-77.  We never had a problem with the blade working, where the problem was was the extra weight on the front end.  The extra weight caused the tank to be depressed in the front since the suspension was not modified and higher than normal in the rear.  As a result, I think we spent as much time getting pulled out of the Ft Polk muck (high water table!), as digging emplacements.  I don't recall the hydraulic lines going under the tank, but that was a long time ago, and probably of not much importance to me at the time.  There seemed to be a push to add a blade tank to each Company starting in the mid-70s as I had never seen one before they starting modifying our tanks in '76.  We didn't have them in Europe, which one would think would have priority at that time.  Previously the only blades I had seen were on the M88s recovery vehicles (which, if I remember correctly, were mainly for stability when recovering tanks) and the M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle (a modified M60). 

My first assignment was with the 4/64 Armor (3ID) in Aschaffensburg Germany (1972).  At that time the BN was a mix of M60s and A1s - all in OD with white and yellow lettering.  The bore evacuators were painted Red (A Company), White (B CO) & Blue (C CO), with a tank name.  I don't recall if anybody else did this.  In Fall 1973, I understood, we were the first Armor BN (maybe the first unit) in Europe to camouflage our tanks.  This was not the [later] common forest green pattern, but supposedly a modified desert pattern of sand, blacks, grays, etc.  I never saw this pattern again.  By the mid-70s all M60A1s would have been in green camouflage.

As for the track, the first time I saw the removable octagonal track was at Ft Polk where, as a re-activating unit, we were getting our vehicles straight off the assembly line about 5 at a time.  Thus, I'd say the T142 wouldn't be appropriate for an O/D A1. 

As for the paint, it really depends on what you want to portray.  A tank just off the assembly line is going to have a darker O/D.  One that's been in the field is going to be affected by it's specific environment.  At Grafenwoehr Germany, where we'd go twice a year to fire, there was a fine dust/mud that covered the tanks in a dusty film we could never get off [and thus a lighter color].  At Ft Polk, the sandy soil wore out sprockets and wore off paint. 

Bottom line is I believe an O/D A1 would have the old style track, and would not have a dozer blade.  However, there are always exceptions to the rule - some tanks at Ft Knox, Aberdeen PG, with the National Guard, or with the Marines might have been different from what I experienced.

Now all I need is somebody to come out with parts for an AVLB.  I sure don't look forward to scratchbuilding the bridge, launcher and other modifcations to the hull!

Well, I seem to have rambled a bit, but hopefully there's some useful info here

Andy

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Friday, June 26, 2009 7:36 AM

There is a resin/plastic kit of the M48 AVLB available from Hobby Fan (the resin side of AFV Club). http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/hobbyfan/hf018.htm 

My old unit was 5-77 Armor (8th ID) stationed in Mannheim. Our sister battalion was 5-68 Armor who reflagged to become 3-77 Armor in 1989 (we had been 3-68 Armor prior to reflagging in 1987). We had one blade tank per company, four per battalion and 8 total in the brigade. Our M60A3TTS tanks were relatively young tanks, maybe 4-5 years old. I remember one blade tank becoming fully operational, as in the hydraulics raised and lowered the blade during my time in the unit while we had M60s (we tranisitioned to M1A1s in mid 1989). It was quite a big deal at the time, since many had not worked in quite some time. Blades were routinely raised by the two cables that hooked to the end connectors and then the tank backed up a few feet to raise the blade.

The lack of operational blades was attributed to damage the hydraulics took as the tank traversed through rough terrain. I have never seen blades on the Slick 60 or M60A2, but that does not mean they never had them, just that I'd never seen them.

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: UK
Posted by Jon_a_its on Friday, June 26, 2009 9:40 AM
Haven't Revell re-released the M48 AVLB under the History Makers' tag? 
it's approx 1/40th-ish

East Mids Model Club 32nd Annual Show 2nd April 2023

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Don't feed the CM!

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Friday, June 26, 2009 10:25 AM
 Jon_a_its wrote:
Haven't Revell re-released the M48 AVLB under the History Makers' tag? 
it's approx 1/40th-ish
Yes, but it is not the standard version that went into production.
  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by 7377Tanker on Friday, June 26, 2009 3:29 PM

Just wanted to add a note on my experience with M60-A1 Camo scheme, track config etc. from the 70,s. I was station in Kitizgen Germany with the 1-64 Armor from 1973 to 1977. Our tanks went through a number of changes upgrades and replacements. The first group of tanks consisted of a mix of M60 A1 and a few M60's. Each company had a dozer tank, C Companies was one of the few that the blade actually worked. All tanks were OD green. In 1974 all the M60's were replaced by M60 A1's. In 1975/76 all of the M60 A1's were replaced by M60 A1 AOS (add on Stabilization) and non- flammable hydraulic fluid. There was no replacement for the Blade tanks. They did not have the AOS kits. The hydraulic lines did run under the bottom of tank, great replication job All of the new tanks had immediate problems due to the Yellow hydraulic fluid. Turrets would not work. All hydraulics was drained and old version was used. In early 1976 all of the tank treads (chevron style) were replaced by the new replaceable pad type tract. Painting schemes: 1973-1974 basic OD green color. 1974-1975 the desert camo scheme came into the 1/64. I guess we were slated to rescue Israel if needed. Always found it weird that in the middle of the European forest we had these tanks all painted in desert Camo. Anyway, all of the tanks were hand painted with five gallon buckets of paint and paint brushes. We were given a handout with the basic pattern. The colors were Desert Sand, OD green? a little Brown, and Black. I have a number of faded pictures with the colors which clearly show the colors and patterns. No two tanks were painted quite the same. The Unit markings (C-1-64) (C-26) were in black on front of tank and on rear access panels a small black star on the fender. We did name tanks and it was on Bore evacuators. My tank was call the CDACC Cruiser then California Cannabis (don't ask how we got away with that). In 1976 the camo was changed to a forest camo which was dark greens and black. OD green M60A1 Blade would have the old style track. I had 7 trips to Graf and same number to Hoelensfeld for gunnery practice. In 1975 I was Top Gunner AOS competition Graf for the 3ID.

 

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