Oh yer whats this about?

Love that groundwork. Interesting idea for a dio. That isn't accurate is it?

OK...here is my opinion....

Model shows are like dog shows. There is no cut and dry on what is best. It is opinion and like politics many times opinion can be swayed. I personally think the Sheman in the workshop and the ME262 scenes are fantastic. But...thats my opinion.

If you are going to go to a model show, if it is a local hobby shop show or an international major competition, go in with the thought that you know you did your best, you like the way your model turned out, you will proudly display it at home, and odds are the people judging it will think it $uck$ for some reason that you will never understand and you will go home empty handed. If the stars and moon are aligned and you do win...it is that much better.

I will be at a regional show this weekend and will have two entries. If I win nothing, I will have had a great time with my fellow modelers and come back pumped. If I do win...even better.

There is no way to explain or answer your question.....it is one of the great riddles of life

• Is there a god?
• Who am I??
• Who built the pyrimids?
• Why did they judge the models the way they did???????

We now return you to our regularly scheduled rant

Rounds Complete!!

 I'm just plain lovin' that unpainted Me-262, plus it has armor in the scene too. Thus that makes it even better.

I judge at the state show where I live and there is always a first, second and third awarded. If there are only two models in a chosen category then the third place is dropped.

I do not or will ever understand why judges believe that a first should ot be awarded to any cateory entry as there ought to one of those entries better than the others.

I am not sure as to why this was the case but rest assured will be asking a fellow club member (who went to Euromilitaire to judge) this very question.

madmike wrote:

I am not sure as to why this was the case but rest assured will be asking a fellow club member (who went to Euromilitaire to judge) this very question.

Make sure when you speak to him, you tell him that at least one modeler here thinks the judging was completely F.o.S.!!!!

What an insult to these fine dioramas and their creators! I can see absolutely NO reason why at least two or three of these would qualify for "Gold"!

Andy, do the judges "turn over" every year? Or are they the same members, fairly consistently? I simply cannot fathom their snobby, ridiculous judging! Maybe they're jaded? IN that case, they need to be replaced!

WHAT AN INSULT!

I would be a horrible judge.  Every model would get a gold.

Ditto  I'm with the doog on this one. What would have qualified for gold?

Well, I don't know about you guys, but the reason is obvious to me.  I mean, c'mon, go back and really take a critical look at those dios and I think it will be just as obvious to you as well...

 

Those judges were all idiots??

How does that U-boat dio not rate a gold??  Heck, how do any of them not rate SOMETHING (you did say that, with the exception of the first, none of those dios placed?)  Insanity...

I agree!

Here's something for the judges.

WHAT AN INSULT!

Gaaa

 It's spectacular builds like these (particularly the 262 dio) that put me in my place and remind me of how crude & amateurish I really am............  I would be a liar to say I'm not jealous, these are totally "OFF THE CHART".

 These works are deserving of PLATINUM awards. The clown judges should get lead plaques to reward their blindness to such works of magnificence.

 These  "judges" are arrogant victims of their own insecurities,  and do nothing to promote the hobby and reward the brilliant and diligent works displayed here.  Obviously, their decisions  directly reflect their own abilities.

 While all being VERY well done, the only one that has the least "WoW factor" for me is the tank and landing craft.

I missed all the others the first time thru. Wow, and boy do mine suck compared to those.

Wow, now that's some amazing dios, and what makes them really good isn't just the work and detail, but the story is clearly told by just looking at it.

Reminds me of IPMS in Atlanta last Spring when my Panther didn't place because of the seam on the metal barrel, and the same Panther took Silver at the AMPS show a month earlier...

One thing about that 262 dio though, it seems the plane is larger in scale than the AFV's and figs---maybe 1/24th???

Sounds like the judges spent all their gold on the figures 'cause they like figures. They were broke when they got to Dio's..............I like Dio's myself, and I'll tell ya, those are worthy! If you don't know what to do, giving them ALL Gold is better than NONE! Yeah, there should be a gold in every catagory, every day---a show is based on what's brought--isn't it? I've never heard of ANY show being judged like this. This will have a poor effect on Euro's future, talk about not being encouraging. Suppose you go to an IPMS show and the judges decide they'd rather get rid of everyone'    "Ok, no awards today at all......'cause you ALL $uck"             Great. Thanks. Way to help kill it for people.

 

 WOW!!!!!!!! I award PLATINUM to them all too!!!

  Beautiful Work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

                                    60

??? wow some of those are extremely NICE. I wonder what he/she used for the water in most of the clear water dios.

Okay, here’s my take. Most of the individual elements of these dios are all very good, even excellent. But a dio is more than a bunch of good elements put on a base. Composition in many of these with multiple heights is also very visuallyinteresting. However, the story is essential to how well it will do. Also, several of these appear to have very similar style and may be the work of one person. Think of a dio as a novel. It doesn't matter that there are hundreds of beautifully crafted sentences and some very evocative words, if hte final story doesn't flow, it's not a great novel.

Me 262: This would have been a much better story either without the Americans or without the Germans driving their vehicles through the scene. Had the Germans been being marched past the jet, the story would have been more cohesive.

Landing craft; Nice elements but no drama at all. The figures neither interact among themselves nor engage the viewer.

Sherman workshop: Is this supposed to be the Tank Workshop TV show? If so, it may be the best of the bunch, but again, not much story or drama. 

Sub. Nice use of different elevations and great groundwork, but the boat and diver in the foreground may be one internal scene too many. Also, the figures seem not to be interacting with the rest of the scene

Twin Shermans: It looks like the second Sherman has had its driver’s vision severely compromised by the sandbags. The front one has floating tracks over the ground. There’s stuff on the back of the first that will fall off at the first bump. The two Americans with the German prisoner looks like a mob hit in the making.

Two guys and broken bridge: What was the bridge supposed to have been attached to? It looks like it goes straight out from the two guys’ perch but there’s no damage to the ground work near them. Visually, it looks like a two figure vignette was almost randomly placed on a different scene.

Broken stern: Lots of nice rust elements here, but what’s the story? Is that hole supposed to be a shell hole? If so, how did it get so rusty so quick? Is the guy in he middle level supposed to be dead and half hanging out of the hatch? If the ship is sinking fast, suggested by the clothing of the guys in the water, why is the guy on top taking so much time with the guy he’s cradling?

Maybe they ain't perfect,but they deserve something for the phenominal workmanship.Screw the judges,those dios are getting the props they deserve right here from fellow modelers.

 Mike said,

redleg12 wrote:

OK...here is my opinion.... Model shows are like dog shows. There is no cut and dry on what is best. It is opinion and like politics many times opinion can be swayed. I personally think the Sheman in the workshop and the ME262 scenes are fantastic. But...thats my opinion. If you are going to go to a model show, if it is a local hobby shop show or an international major competition, go in with the thought that you know you did your best, you like the way your model turned out, you will proudly display it at home, and odds are the people judging it will think it $uck$ for some reason that you will never understand and you will go home empty handed. If the stars and moon are aligned and you do win...it is that much better. I will be at a regional show this weekend and will have two entries. If I win nothing, I will have had a great time with my fellow modelers and come back pumped. If I do win...even better. There is no way to explain or answer your question.....it is one of the great riddles of life Is there a god? Who am I?? Who built the pyrimids? Why did they judge the models the way they did??????? We now return you to our regularly scheduled rant Rounds Complete!!

 Totally agree, but this was trully injustice.

TD4438 wrote:

Screw the judges,those dios are getting the props they deserve right here from fellow modelers.

Isn't that what's really important? It only seems to be an injustice to me if one places the emphasis on actually winning. If this thread is an indication of the general consensus, I'm sure those amazing pieces got their fair share of ooohs & ahhhhs from those attending.

I've won my share of awards in the past, and to be honest, when I look at the awards themselves I have no idea what piece they are attached to. I do, however, remember a rave I got concerning one of my pieces from Steve Zaloga at one of our club meetings about 14 years ago, and it's as clear as if it happened yesterday. Those are the things that stay with me.

Al - Your reply is outstanding and coming from someone who is a great dio and figure modeler and judge, it helps. Many of us, including me, who are not dio or figure people but more model people look at the individual items and the general view.

As a dio judge you showed what we should consider. The example is the ME262, I lover the look and the models, but after your comment on the Germans and their vehicle, I went back and said....yep...I see that.

Thanks for the great breakdown.

Rounds Complete!!

TD4438 wrote:

Maybe they ain't perfect,but they deserve something for the phenominal workmanship.

Again, a dio's workmanship is only PART of the criteria a judge uses in evaluating, judging' it. For the most part, I agree, there is great workmanship in the individual parts,  but the whole is weak, and if I can find issues from 1 or 2 images, I'm sure a judge, tasked with making a determination of what gets rewarded and what doesn't is goig to look much more closely. Yeah, they're big and have a lot of stuff in htem. Awards don't go to the biggest footprint or the dio with the most stuff in it. In my experience, bigger is rarely better. Dios are like  weathering, when you think you need to one step further (add one more element), stop. You've probably gone far enough. The more stuff you put in, the more likely some portion is going to, in the words of the Talking Heads, stop making sense.

Screw the judges,those dios are getting the props they deserve right here from fellow modelers.

With that attitude, I'd make two suggestions.

First, keep your stuff home and never post it anywhere.

Second, if you ever do go to a show, offer to help with judging. You will see and hear from the front lines exactly why and wherefore something gets props or not.

Oh, and for the record, the judges on which you heap disdain ARE your fellow modelers. They are the ones without whom no one would get anything and there'd be no shows. They're the ones who are slogging through the hard work of choosing what is award-worthy that day while others are busy socializing over lunch and bing about how biased, blind and boneheaded the judges are.

ajlafleche wrote:

TD4438 wrote: Maybe they ain't perfect,but they deserve something for the phenominal workmanship. Again, a dio's workmanship is only PART of the criteria a judge uses in evaluating, judging' it. For the most part, I agree, there is great workmanship in the individual parts,  but the whole is weak, and if I can find issues from 1 or 2 images, I'm sure a judge, tasked with making a determination of what gets rewarded and what doesn't is goig to look much more closely. Yeah, they're big and have a lot of stuff in htem. Awards don't go to the biggest footprint or the dio with the most stuff in it. In my experience, bigger is rarely better. Dios are like  weathering, when you think you need to one step further (add one more element), stop. You've probably gone far enough. The more stuff you put in, the more likely some portion is going to, in the words of the Talking Heads, stop making sense. Screw the judges,those dios are getting the props they deserve right here from fellow modelers. With that attitude, I'd make two suggestions. First, keep your stuff home and never post it anywhere. Second, if you ever do go to a show, offer to help with judging. You will see and hear from the front lines exactly why and wherefore something gets props or not. Oh, and for the record, the judges on which you heap disdain ARE your fellow modelers. They are the ones without whom no one would get anything and there'd be no shows. They're the ones who are slogging through the hard work of choosing what is award-worthy that day while others are busy socializing over lunch and bing about how biased, blind and boneheaded the judges are.

Al,

Like Redleg, I appreciate your commentary on the dios.  I disagree with some of your points (I don't think the diver detracts from the U-boat dio, for example), but overall, your analysis definately brings things into a different perspective.  The source of my criticism, however, is that, if these were the ONLY dios at this show, or the were the BEST at this show, don't they deserve medals?  Like a couple of people mentioned, when we judge, are we judging what is 'in front of us' or are we comparing it to everything that exists in the modeling 'universe'?  I guess it just shocked my that the judges decided against awarding ANY gold medals, and NONE of those dios earned even a silver.

Maybe it is just my ignorance of alternate judging systems (I only have experience with the system used at AMPSEast).

Be interested in your perspective.

Thanks, Al

Al you brought up some great points, but I believe that--like Boyd mentioned--the judges should have voted for the best dio's at that show.

I've been a judge several times at different shows, and while I"ve never judged an "AMPs"-style show, I recognize that people have traveled sometimes long distances to present their efforts and to receive their deserved accolades, and trifling over "Well, I woulda done this differently..." has no place when people have put forth the effort and time to travel there and expect to be fairly recognized.

Anyway, that's just my opinionated opinion ......--but perhaps the best reason to have given at least one lousy "gold" is that it just plain makes the judging look bad --and could potentially sour people from coming back.And let's face it--it's not like they're giving out free MRI's or cancer screenings. It's just a modeling contest in the end, that relies upon entrants and modelers to make it work.

I still say that the decision was arrogant. It says to everyone there "Well, there was none deserving here today." That's not a good taste to leave in the mouths of anybody.

I agree with Karl , it should be the best on the day that recieves gold . It doesnt matter what mistakes it has AJ that was not the issue here, and to put the record straight i think there was a couple of silvers in this lot and this was not all of the dio,s there. As far as AJ,s remarks i think you are not getting the point at all. If you are pulling all these issues out on the builds as to why you dont like them or think they are worthy of golds then answer me this, Why was there about three or four golds handed out in the junior classes out of about six dios, they certainly didnt look wortrhy . Yes i know they are starting out and they havnt got the knowledge and skills yet and they were ok as builds ,but why give nearly all of them gold and none to the adults.The judging is all a bit suspect up there thats all im saying on the matter. Once again its the best on the day that gets gold in my opinion and not the attitude oh well there was a better one last year. That is what i was trying to say on this thread, i certainly didnt want nor think its right to pick all of the builds to pieces.

As a dio builder, I'm going to concurr with Al on his observations, plus I'll add that the cropped U-boat looks ridiculous... Nothing wrong with the workmanship and detail, but it lacks any real story, and it also looks exactly like what it is, a section of a U-boat...  You can crop buildings, treelines, roads, and other terrain features and infrastructure without any problems, but NEVER crop the subject or it's supporting structures... That brings up the bridge... It's the focal point of the story, and it's cropped... No-Go.. I won't even begin to talk about lack of balance... Landing craft, no story at all, even though it fills the requirement of the LC doing it's thing...

The "1&1/2 Shermans".. Again, cropped... He'd have been better off just building the one complete tank... Tanks don't bunch up like that in hostlie territory...  The ship dio, again.. Cropped... Stop doing that, people! Anytime your dio depends on a large object as a SUPPORTING factor, you're going to blow it...

That said, there still should have been awards...

 

Karl and Andy - I am not sure of the judging rules used but if it is like AMPS style judging, it is possible to not have a gold medal. Now why...unlike IPMS style judging which compares all the dios to each other and awards a 1st, 2nd and 3rd....AMPS style judging is each model is compared to a set of judging standard rules....it is purly a judgement of that model. That is what Al is talking about.

If you have question about how it works or why, read this first

http://www.amps-armor.org/ampssite/contestRules.aspx

Then hopefully you understand. I am sure they are using a similar set of rules. These are not perfect but less subject to judging problems than the IPMS style...IMO.

If all the entries in one class do not meet the standard then yes you can go without a gold. But as I said before, the judging is still opinion.

Rounds Complete!!

ajlafleche wrote:

Awards don't go to the biggest footprint or the dio with the most stuff in it. In my experience, bigger is rarely better.

That is true but in most shows they do get the higher awards regardless of story and/or quality...

redleg12 wrote:

If all the entries in one class do not meet the standard then yes you can go without a gold. But as I said before, the judging is still opinion. Rounds Complete!!

Mike, point taken, and I already kinda knew that.

My point is, if I were in that judging group, I would have spoken up and said "Hey guys, look--ok, so maybe there's nothing that compares to (insert awesome dio name here), but I think we should at least make the gesture and award at least ONE 'Gold' so that people don't go home grumbling." I would have pressed that point vigorously.

Look--rules are rules, yes, but rules be darned, here! I can just see guys walking away, driving home and saying "Ya know, screw that! If nothin' there was 'worthy' of a Gold, then what could be?--I won't be comin' back!"

It would have been wiser, IMO, to award at least one Gold. I guarantee you that if you polled the people in that room, more people wnet home feeling pretty disappointed in not seeing "the money shot" (if you'll excuse the term?) than not. I recognize and understand the rules 110%--but the bottom line is that this was a bad decision for the contest, and for the hobby.

redleg12 wrote:

Karl and Andy - I am not sure of the judging rules used but if it is like AMPS style judging, it is possible to not have a gold medal. Now why...unlike IPMS style judging which compares all the dios to each other and awards a 1st, 2nd and 3rd....AMPS style judging is each model is compared to a set of judging standard rules....it is purly a judgement of that model. That is what Al is talking about. If you have question about how it works or why, read this first http://www.amps-armor.org/ampssite/contestRules.aspx Then hopefully you understand. I am sure they are using a similar set of rules. These are not perfect but less subject to judging problems than the IPMS style...IMO. If all the entries in one class do not meet the standard then yes you can go without a gold. But as I said before, the judging is still opinion. Rounds Complete!!

Oh then at least i can see some logic in that, Thats all i wanted was a logical exsplanation.