Oh yer whats this about?

Seen that as well... Bigger is better, which is a total fallacy... "Bigger" just means Bigger... What I've seen in large dioramas, that is, those with multiple vehicles, 15+ figures, multiple buildings and structures, and each area having it's own little story & sub-plot, is really a bunch of confusion to the viewer...  Large dioramas are better done as separate dioramas when it comes to competition... Museum-quality dioramas are best left for museums in the telling of an overall time & place, like a large Normandy Invasion beach dio, or those of the "Bob Letterman-style" dios... 

In competions, quiet little scenes, like mail-call, vehicle/aircraft maintenence, and action (i.e. combat) scenes are best, since the key component of a great dio is the ease of which the viewer can assertain what's going on... The story and main subject has to be, not just recognizable, but instantly recognizable to the viewer, and that's impossible for the large, multi-scene, multi-story diorama, IMNSHO... 

Every component, from groundwork & foliage to vehicles, and everything in between, is a part of the overall "model"... The entire diorama is the model, not just the things sitting on it. "Perfect" vehicles, figures, and whatnot are not going to make up for poor groundwork, foliage, and overall lack of story, balance, and layout...

the doog wrote:

redleg12 wrote: If all the entries in one class do not meet the standard then yes you can go without a gold. But as I said before, the judging is still opinion. Rounds Complete!! Mike, point taken, and I already kinda knew that. My point is, if I were in that judging group, I would have spoken up and said "Hey guys, look--ok, so maybe there's nothing that compares to (insert awesome dio name here), but I think we should at least make the gesture and award at least ONE 'Gold' so that people don't go home grumbling." I would have pressed that point vigorously. Look--rules are rules, yes, but rules be darned, here! I can just see guys walking away, driving home and saying "Ya know, screw that! If nothin' there was 'worthy' of a Gold, then what could be?--I won't be comin' back!" It would have been wiser, IMO, to award at least one Gold. I guarantee you that if you polled the people in that room, more people wnet home feeling pretty disappointed in not seeing "the money shot" (if you'll excuse the term?) than not. I recognize and understand the rules 110%--but the bottom line is that this was a bad decision for the contest, and for the hobby.

Karl, the whole concept of open judging is that if there are no gold standard entries, gold should not be given regardless of what does show up. (the proverbial) you know that going in. This is something I have complained about for a long time with traditoinal IPMS style 1-2-3 judging. I've been part of judging teams that have had to give a first to some pretty awful pieces of work, so you can imagine what 2 and 3 looked like. 1-2-3 guarantees a first, open doesn't guarantee anything.

The good thing about the former is somebody gets bragging rights in every class, but the guy who wants to know how to improve in a very tough class can't really be told by doing the following, you will have a better chance of moving from also ran to a trophy. In an open system, a builder/painter can be told by improving this or that technique, he/she would be moe likely to get a bronze or move from bronze to silver, silver to gold. You can look at a gold and a bronze and pretty much understand why the different award. With 1-2-3, look at a first in a weak class and a "thanks for coming" in a tough class and the latter may very well be significantly better than the former.

Am I saying all of those were deserving of nothing? No, I'd guess at least bronze, maybe silver for a couple, but a couple I'd have passed on for medals. If they were stand alone models, most would have scored better. As stories, they are wanting. The stuff is impressive at first glance, but judges have to go beyond that. Even if there were photographic corroboration for those, most would suffer from compostion and most of those photographs would end up on the dark room floor.

Funny thing is, there are people on another forum who decry spreading the wealth with "no sweeps" rules but will not consider a system thaty does not automatically give a first to the only model to show up, no matter how bad it might be.

Andy - Oh no...am I becoming the Mr. Spock of the group!!! I may not agree how each was judged but that is the logic. Glad it cleared up some things.

Karl - I understand your point. I will just say this, when judging in the AMPS style, they have judging teams. One team does not normally judge all the models in one class so they would not know. Each model is judged on at a time.

As for dios, they are usaully judged in place by an experienced dio judging team. Since they judge each model individually and score it individually then move to the next, they may not realize that they have a level with no golds. 

There are two sides to the argument for sure. You should someday attend an AMPS show and see how it works....that always helps. From my stand point I feel better being judged against a standard then what was entered. That becomes more of a beauty contest!!

As far as coming away with something, if you have 25 entries in a class, under AMPS all 25 can come away with something, under IPMS only 3 get something and everyone else gets skunked.

There are pluses and minuses, I prefer the everyone to just 3.

At AMPS International there were over 500 armor models and dios. They were judged over a day and a half by 6 teams of 4 judges each in 1 1/2 hour shifts. On average a judging team reviewed and scored an individual model for about 7 minutes. The judging is a bit more intensive on the AMPS level. 

This week end at AMPS East I would expect at least 250 armor models and all day judging team from 8 am to 4 pm.

Rounds Complete!!

ajlafleche wrote:

the doog wrote:  redleg12 wrote: If all the entries in one class do not meet the standard then yes you can go without a gold. But as I said before, the judging is still opinion. Rounds Complete!! Mike, point taken, and I already kinda knew that. My point is, if I were in that judging group, I would have spoken up and said "Hey guys, look--ok, so maybe there's nothing that compares to (insert awesome dio name here), but I think we should at least make the gesture and award at least ONE 'Gold' so that people don't go home grumbling." I would have pressed that point vigorously. Look--rules are rules, yes, but rules be darned, here! I can just see guys walking away, driving home and saying "Ya know, screw that! If nothin' there was 'worthy' of a Gold, then what could be?--I won't be comin' back!" It would have been wiser, IMO, to award at least one Gold. I guarantee you that if you polled the people in that room, more people wnet home feeling pretty disappointed in not seeing "the money shot" (if you'll excuse the term?) than not. I recognize and understand the rules 110%--but the bottom line is that this was a bad decision for the contest, and for the hobby. Karl, the whole concept of open judging is that if there are no gold standard entries, gold should not be given regardless of what does show up. (the proverbial) you know that going in. This is something I have complained about for a long time with traditoinal IPMS style 1-2-3 judging. I've been part of judging teams that have had to give a first to some pretty awful pieces of work, so you can imagine what 2 and 3 looked like. 1-2-3 guarantees a first, open doesn't guarantee anything. The good thing about the former is somebody gets bragging rights in every class, but the guy who wants to know how to improve in a very tough class can't really be told by doing the following, you will have a better chance of moving from also ran to a trophy. In an open system, a builder/painter can be told by improving this or that technique, he/she would be moe likely to get a bronze or move from bronze to silver, silver to gold. You can look at a gold and a bronze and pretty much understand why the different award. With 1-2-3, look at a first in a weak class and a "thanks for coming" in a tough class and the latter may very well be significantly better than the former. Am I saying all of those were deserving of nothing? No, I'd guess at least bronze, maybe silver for a couple, but a couple I'd have passed on for medals. If they were stand alone models, most would have scored better. As stories, they are wanting. The stuff is impressive at first glance, but judges have to go beyond that. Even if there were photographic corroboration for those, most would suffer from compostion and most of those photographs would end up on the dark room floor. Funny thing is, there are people on another forum who decry spreading the wealth with "no sweeps" rules but will not consider a system thaty does not automatically give a first to the only model to show up, no matter how bad it might be.

) award. I say that purely from a "knowing what I know about human nature" perspective--whether that would carry any weight at all in actual real judging.

It makes me think of the father (no, this is not some unconscious recollection from my own childhood!!) whose son sits on the bench most of the season, and then when he gets his one  chance to play, the dad still criticizes him for not reaching the endzone when he got 50 yards to the three-yard line where the quarterback sneaked it in the next play. LIke, "Lighten UP! GIVE A LITTLE CREDIT!" a little, ya know?

The rules make total sense, I see their intent, and I agree that only a few of those up there would have been in the running at all for the Gold. But certainly, at least ONE would have left everyone going home with at least the feeling that on that day, someone "got the girl", someone got "the brass ring" and rose above all others--"...and dagnabit; next year it might be ME!" 

I just feel like I felt when I watched the movie "No Country for Old Men", where the credits started to roll and I looked at Jenn and said --no, just about screamed--"THAT'S IT?!?! ". Ya know--no resolution, no sense of satisfaction. I wonder how many guys there felt that way?

I promise to never use "dagnabit" in a post again here..... lol!

Mike, I understand now--maybe the judges DIDN'T know that there was no Gold winner?

Well, that would certainly remove any issue of "intent" to purposely "snub" or harshly judge people then,...?

PLease disregard everything that I have previosuly posted, in that case....lol....

................................................

Too bad about the judging. Sometimes you win sometmes you don't.

But that sinking ship dio really stands out. Looks like it should have placed to me.

Hans von Hammer wrote:

As a dio builder, I'm going to concurr with Al on his observations, plus I'll add that the cropped U-boat looks ridiculous... Nothing wrong with the workmanship and detail, but it lacks any real story, and it also looks exactly like what it is, a section of a U-boat...  You can crop buildings, treelines, roads, and other terrain features and infrastructure without any problems, but NEVER crop the subject or it's supporting structures... That brings up the bridge... It's the focal point of the story, and it's cropped... No-Go.. I won't even begin to talk about lack of balance... Landing craft, no story at all, even though it fills the requirement of the LC doing it's thing... The "1&1/2 Shermans".. Again, cropped... He'd have been better off just building the one complete tank... Tanks don't bunch up like that in hostlie territory...  The ship dio, again.. Cropped... Stop doing that, people! Anytime your dio depends on a large object as a SUPPORTING factor, you're going to blow it... That said, there still should have been awards...

Couldn't disagree with you more on the U-Boat dio, Hans.  I see a very clear and interesting story being told there...  And I don't think the entire U-boat needs to be there for it to serve as the focal point (I mean, in 1/35th tht would be darn near impossible....).  Just my opinion.... I could be wrong... 

Jut kind of interesting how different people's perception can be...

redleg12 wrote:

Karl and Andy - I am not sure of the judging rules used but if it is like AMPS style judging, it is possible to not have a gold medal. Now why...unlike IPMS style judging which compares all the dios to each other and awards a 1st, 2nd and 3rd....AMPS style judging is each model is compared to a set of judging standard rules....it is purly a judgement of that model. That is what Al is talking about. If you have question about how it works or why, read this first http://www.amps-armor.org/ampssite/contestRules.aspx Then hopefully you understand. I am sure they are using a similar set of rules. These are not perfect but less subject to judging problems than the IPMS style...IMO. If all the entries in one class do not meet the standard then yes you can go without a gold. But as I said before, the judging is still opinion. Rounds Complete!!

Redleg

I see your point, but isn't it usually just the opposite?  What I mean is, don't people tend to praise the AMPS style judging because it is NOT limited to a 1 - 2 - 3 in each category, thus usually resulting in multiple gold medals?

I realize that you are technically correct (and I guess I should have thought of that when I first responded to AJ), but I guess I am surprised because it is my understanding that rather than NOT awarding a gold, AMPS style usually awards multiple golds (or silvers or bronzes...).

bbrowniii wrote:

[ Redleg I see your point, but isn't it usually just the opposite?  What I mean is, don't people tend to praise the AMPS style judging because it is NOT limited to a 1 - 2 - 3 in each category, thus usually resulting in multiple gold medals? I realize that you are technically correct (and I guess I should have thought of that when I first responded to AJ), but I guess I am surprised because it is my understanding that rather than NOT awarding a gold, AMPS style usually awards multiple golds (or silvers or bronzes...).

It depends on your perspective...either your cup is half empty or half full.....as I chemical engineer I always say the cup is twice as big as it needs to be!!

Rounds Complete!!

I understand where you're coming from on the psychological perspective Karl but in this case, if no golds were awarded because no work in that class measured up to the "gold" standard, then no golds should've been handed out. Not even one symbolic gesture gold. Why? Because in doing that, it would actually lower the "gold" standard unfairly for past gold winners as well as for future winners. Think of it like grade inflation...at some point if there aren't any golds in the competition that round but you still had out a gold, you're cheapening things by doing that. I personally think the judges did the right thing if that is indeed the case of why there weren't any golds handed out.

I too have served as a contest judge and encourage anyone who's interested in doing contests to serve as a judge if you get the chance. It will do wonders for "opening your eyes" to all the little things that matter in that arena that can separate a gold from a no medal in a single fell swoop. Even though the "wow" factor is one that's easy to fall victim to as a casual observer based on photos...the judging process is designed to brush that immediately aside and start picking things apart with the type of criteria that Al mentions. Some is subjective, sure, but the intent is there to arrive at a critical and fair evaluation of the entries. If the critical evaluation is that a category has only silvers on the table that year, then so be it. Just my

Mansteins revenge wrote:

In my experience, ther is one gold, one silver and one bronze awarded at AMPS...the models are "supposedly" judged on their own merits but multiple medals have not been given out at the shows I attended---one of each...

Manny - It sounds like you have been at IPMS shows or combination shows where they use the AMPS style judging but award like IPMS. At a true AMPS regional or the AMPS international that is not the case.

I know you had on bad experience but if we threw out every item in the house we ever stubbed our toe on....the house would be empty.

Go to the AMPS site to find the AMPS show in your area

Rounds Complete!!

redleg12 wrote:

Mansteins revenge wrote: In my experience, ther is one gold, one silver and one bronze awarded at AMPS...the models are "supposedly" judged on their own merits but multiple medals have not been given out at the shows I attended---one of each... Manny - It sounds like you have been at IPMS shows or combination shows where they use the AMPS style judging but award like IPMS. At a true AMPS regional or the AMPS international that is not the case. I know you had on bad experience but if we threw out every item in the house we ever stubbed our toe on....the house would be empty. Go to the AMPS site to find the AMPS show in your area Rounds Complete!!

Manny - All I can say then is go to the AMPS website and go to contacts and let someone know. As I remember Roy was going to pass the word on.

I still would go back this year and see if they improved!!

OK....I will take the dredge into port

Rounds Complete!!

Bodge,

Those DIO's are excellent and I cannot believe that they didn't win any awards.

Those judge's must have been jealous with envy knowing that they were incapable of doing such fine pieces.

Thanks for sharing. How did you do in the show?

IBuild148 wrote:

Those judge's must have been jealous with envy knowing that they were incapable of doing such fine pieces.

Utterly dumfounded at this comment. Anything else I were to say would be exceptionally insulting.

Here are some examples of what gets medals at Euromilitaire and an album from last year.

ajlafleche wrote:

IBuild148 wrote: Those judge's must have been jealous with envy knowing that they were incapable of doing such fine pieces. Utterly dumfounded at this comment. Anything else I were to say would be exceptionally insulting. Here are some examples of what gets medals at Euromilitaire and an album from last year.

 For the record..... Euro-Militaire judges are to score on the following:

Class 8. VIGNETTES

Class 9. DIORAMAS  

Class 10. BOXED DIORAMAS

Class 15. MILITARY VEHICLE DIORAMAS

Class 16. MILITARY VEHICLE VIGNETTES                                                              

 % of marks

Message                                              20

Composition                                        30

Painting                                               30

Presentation , Groundwork                20

& Realism

Last year a Gold went to this in Vignettes : "Dates by Bruno Maurizo

One other Gold went to the Cannone Brothers for The forgotten Land. Two Slivers were givin in this catagory, one to Andre Tessareni, one to Calvin Tan

In Dio's last year, there was two Golds & one Silver.

 one gold to Douglas Lee   

and one Gold to Bill Horan

It would seem to get a gold at Euro, you would have to be an absolute Master, doing the best possible Dio work ever presented, and that is the gold standard to be met. To be the premier event, and world class authority is to labeled as snobbery,  by many. To get a Gold there is like getting an Oscar, and appearently, a good deal more rare.

Personally, i find it a bit troubling that the Dio's Bodge showed as examples took home nothing at all. I would prefer that if such a high gold standard was to be retained, if only to honor the previous emormous achievements of it's winners, other awards could(and should IMO) be made to those doing what is by all accounts commedable work.  I suppose  the Euro officals have very difficult responsibilities, and I don't envy them thier jobs, as in upholding the established standards, they must dispense much dissappointment.

Couldn't disagree with you more on the U-Boat dio, Hans.  I see a very clear and interesting story being told there...  And I don't think the entire U-boat needs to be there for it to serve as the focal point (I mean, in 1/35th tht would be darn near impossible....).

The U-Boat (along with the "1.5 Shermans", and the bridge)  should have been in a shadow boxe... That's the best way to crop a model... When you crop a model and leave it viewable from all directions, it looks like what it is... A section of an object... Were I judging that particular dio, and another person did one the same way, but put it in a shadow box, the box-dio would have won...

Hans von Hammer wrote:

Couldn't disagree with you more on the U-Boat dio, Hans.  I see a very clear and interesting story being told there...  And I don't think the entire U-boat needs to be there for it to serve as the focal point (I mean, in 1/35th tht would be darn near impossible....).  The U-Boat (along with the "1.5 Shermans", and the bridge)  should have been in a shadow boxe... That's the best way to crop a model... When you crop a model and leave it viewable from all directions, it looks like what it is... A section of an object... Were I judging that particular dio, and another person did one the same way, but put it in a shadow box, the box-dio would have won...

Fair enough - I can see your point about a shadow box.  Perhaps that would have made the presentation better, perhaps not.  For me, I don't think the shadow box was necessary.  I think it is fine the way it is.  Just a difference of opinions...

ajlafleche wrote:

IBuild148 wrote: Those judge's must have been jealous with envy knowing that they were incapable of doing such fine pieces. Utterly dumfounded at this comment. Anything else I were to say would be exceptionally insulting. Here are some examples of what gets medals at Euromilitaire and an album from last year.

Al,

I agree with you on the comment about the judges, and thanks for the link to the show album.  One thing jumps out at me in the list of awards - in that year, in the dio category, there were three golds, a silver and a 'c' (Commendable?).  In vignettes, four gold, two silver, a bronze, an 'HC',  and three 'Cs'

Looking at those results, it does strike me as odd that NONE of those dios on the first page earned awards?

bbrowniii wrote:

Looking at those results, it does strike me as odd that NONE of those dios on the first page earned awards?

Boyd,

Andy clarified in his later posts that some of them did in fact win Silver, so they weren't all deemed as "unworthy" of any type of recognition.

INDY wrote:

It would seem to get a gold at Euro, you would have to be an absolute Master, doing the best possible Dio work ever presented, and that is the gold standard to be met. To get a Gold there is like getting an Oscar, and appearently, a good deal more rare.

I noticed Calvin Tan was awarded Silver in some fig categories...he does the Alpine figure paint-ups for their line and I consider him to perhaps be the finest 35th scale figure painter in the world... 

wbill76 wrote:

bbrowniii wrote: Looking at those results, it does strike me as odd that NONE of those dios on the first page earned awards? Boyd, Andy clarified in his later posts that some of them did in fact win Silver, so they weren't all deemed as "unworthy" of any type of recognition.

Ahh, I guess I missed that.  Alright, perhaps it is not as bad as I first perceived it to be.

bbrowniii wrote:

Hans von Hammer wrote: Couldn't disagree with you more on the U-Boat dio, Hans.  I see a very clear and interesting story being told there...  And I don't think the entire U-boat needs to be there for it to serve as the focal point (I mean, in 1/35th tht would be darn near impossible....).  The U-Boat (along with the "1.5 Shermans", and the bridge)  should have been in a shadow boxe... That's the best way to crop a model... When you crop a model and leave it viewable from all directions, it looks like what it is... A section of an object... Were I judging that particular dio, and another person did one the same way, but put it in a shadow box, the box-dio would have won... Fair enough - I can see your point about a shadow box.  Perhaps that would have made the presentation better, perhaps not.  For me, I don't think the shadow box was necessary.  I think it is fine the way it is.  Just a difference of opinions...

 I would have to agree here. I could understand if there were one main subject and it were cropped but what I see in these dios is what I, for lack of a better term, would call snapshot dios. Just like snapping a photo with a camera, you may only photograph a part of the scene you are filming. In these dios, just like viewing a photo, the viewer has to fill in the rest.

Well, I came up from the Shep Paine School of Dioramas, lol... Cropping models is a no-no... In fact, he talks about the "snapshot" diorama... Basically, he says don't do it if the subject of the photograph isn't in the shot in it's entirety.    I'll paraphrase him from his diorama book with: "A photograph of two pilots in conversation  next to the nose of their B-24 is an interesting scene, because we recognize enough of the bomber to tell what it is, but a diorama of the two and just the nose of the bomber, the effect would be ludicrous.  It would look like just what it is, a section of an airplane on it's nosewheel."  He goes on to say that, "If you build the entire aircraft however, the two crewmen are reduced to a sub-plot", and then, "if you are depending on a large vehicle or aircraft as a supporting factor, you can anticipate trouble with size."      

Now, I know I'm going t' change anyone's mind here (and vice versa, btw), but I still feel that if one wants that diorama to look right, it needs to be complete, in a smaller scale if necessary, or in a shadow box... Same-same with the bridge and the 1.5 Shermans... Some folks will, in fact, "fill in" what's missing automatically, but you can't depend on that. Rationalize it any way you want to..  It works with scenery, like structures, roads, and treelines, but not subjects... 

Don't get me wrong though... A cropped model will NOT make me give an automatic "Thumbs Down", but it WOULD effect the scoring...  What someone builds for their own enjoyment is one thing, but in competitions, we all knoow that the standards are higher... There's a million things you can get away with building dioramas, but there are a million things that you can't... In fact, I don't truly understand the resistance to shadow-boxing a dio like that... When a dio-builder can restrict the viewing angle, set the perspective, background,  and control the lighting, it's kinda like being God in there, knowwhutImean?  It's like a movie set and you're Steven Spielberg, man... You've created a "world" in there, one where you can turn 6 inches of real distance into miles...

Hans von Hammer wrote:

Couldn't disagree with you more on the U-Boat dio, Hans.  I see a very clear and interesting story being told there...  And I don't think the entire U-boat needs to be there for it to serve as the focal point (I mean, in 1/35th tht would be darn near impossible....).  The U-Boat (along with the "1.5 Shermans", and the bridge)  should have been in a shadow boxe... That's the best way to crop a model... When you crop a model and leave it viewable from all directions, it looks like what it is... A section of an object... Were I judging that particular dio, and another person did one the same way, but put it in a shadow box, the box-dio would have won...

Hans, I've read some really on-the-money posts from you, but this IMO isn't one of them, or the the lengthy one that follows, thumping the Shep Paine book like it's scripture, apealling to the same limiting opinon, that a Dio would never be successful by chopping it's main element, or even a supporting one viewable from unfavorable sides. This aproach(like many) has it's own set of hurdles, but A Dio can be built that does what you are saying and be a success, even enough to take an award at Euro. If I had gone on just a few lines more with MY own lengthy post, relating last years highest medals at Euro, (for comparison to this years poor output) I would have credited the one Silver I mentioned to Aitor Askue, for " Hamburg 1945 " which was.... a dockside  scene featuring a U-boat(chopped off at both ends) along with lots of 'set dressing' and figures, which got that Silver in The 'Military Vehicle Diorama' catagory. It's quite a nice piece,  (I will attempt to locate an image of it I can post)

"Hamburg 1945 " Silver at 2008 Euro-Militaire (only photos I could find -unknown photographer)

 ~and while I like the Dio from this year myself (it's AWSOME, as we're several others no ones talking about in this thread, that while un-awarded, we're very well recieved by visitors), I would say that what left this sub dio  falling short was not chopping the sub, but the akward dimensions used, of being far 'deeper' than it was wide, allowing the builder to show a greater range of areas, but making life perhaps too easy on himself by showing such a brief 'clip' in the 'frame'.

(these photos by Michael McLaughlin )

 You can see that in a front veiw, it's wildly interesting & the same Dio, carried out wider than it was deep, would have had a bettter impact, allowing the veiwer to simply view, rather than constantly adjust himself to accept it as intended.  OR  { Perhaps you are right, it would be better inclosed, but that is just not the way Dio's are being built...BUT  maybe as you mention, it should more often be considered}

         Heres another great example of a chopped sub that works great. A popular, well-known model from Andrea Miniatures, done here by my friend on the MM site, Frederico

I read Sheperd Paines book as well, and as an overview to everything Diorama it is maybe the best. As far as delving into each process and technique goes, arguably enough - better ideas ( and alternate methods)have eclipsed much of it. In some respect Shep opens the doors for the modeler, in others he may limit the scope of possibility by putting a rule in place of a guidline, a guidline in place of a suggestion, but isn't that teaching ?- growth would have to sprout further branches to ever get toward world-class.   As Paine eludes to in his book, composition and balance is something one most get a 'feel' for through experience, he goes further than most in attempting to instill some basics.

  As  someone working at creating artwork  of one sort or another for over 30 years, I know the key is not to have NO rules. this creates unseemly chaos in most cases. Likewise one cannot create the finest works while operating inside rules of establishment in all cases.        The finest work comes from forming your own rules (for use within a given artpiece), and deciding yourself when its best to break them.