SEARCH FINESCALE.COM

Enter keywords or a search phrase below:

Saving Private Ryan - this has been bugging me

38149 views
143 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Friday, March 26, 2010 12:16 PM

stikpusher

Capt. Miller and Darby's Rangers. Now here we get in to some "rivet counting". Darby's Rangers were formed in 1942 in the UK, originally the 1st Ranger Battalion. 50 went ashore at Dieppe in August 1942 to get combat experience. After North Africa, the 3rd and later 4th Ranger Battalions were formed and added to the force. They were destroyed at Anzio early in the battle during late January and survivors transferred to the 1st Special Service Force. These Ranger units wore the black, white, and red Ranger scrolls like what is worn on todays Ranger Regiment soldiers (the scroll, not the tab from the school). 

Rudders Rangers, the 2nd and 5th Ranger Battalions, which would go ashore in Normandy were formed in the US and then sent to England as part of the force for Overlord. These Rangers originally wore the Blue and Gold diamond shaped Ranger patch and later adopted the scroll.

I have read of one Ranger officer in Rudder's Rangers that had previously served in Darby's but he was relieved before the invasion. These two battalions had seen no action prior to June 6 and would have had little to no need for replacements coming in to the unit prior to the landing. Except perhaps to replace men injured or killed in training accidents. So possible, yes, probable...? you decide.

As far as uniforms go, the researcher did a great job there. For Overlord, the Ranger Force wore impregnated (an anti gas treatment) HBT fatigues with M41 field jackets and assault vests. What the actors wore in the movie. Helmets were marked as shown with the standard NCO or officers white stripe on the rear of the helmet as an orange diamond with the number of the battalion on the diamond on the back of the helmet as well for all Rangers.

Tank Busters? I think that was due to what they had flyable for filming. P-47s would have been the best choice, but how many of those are still flying today? Plus I do believe that Spielberg has a "thing" for Mustangs. Just a hunch, but look at "Empire of the Sun". And if you watch the special features Disc with movies he made as kid with a home camera near a desert aircraft boneyard. In the ETO, the few US P-51As were recon photo birds. Most Allison engined US P-51s flew in the MTO or CBI.

Darby Ranger were the ones that scaled the cliffs. They wear a completely different uniform that regular Army did at the time. It closely resembles a Vietnam era jungle fatigue, but is grey in color. The shoulder patches they wore I don't really remember. There was no lower pockets on the pants as best I can remember. Somewhere I have a photo of what was said to be the last surviving Darby Ranger in uniform, so I'll have to start the hunt for it this  weekend. It's been years since I've seen it, but I know I didn't toss it.

as for the aircraft, I never felt that the P51D was the wise choice for the film. They were not as well suited for low level raids as the P51 / A36 were (as well as a P39/ Tempest were. But in reallity it would probably have been an A20 or a B26 Marauder out the busting tanks. Perhaps a Havoc with invasion stripes (I don't remember seeing them on the Mustangs by the way)

gary

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Friday, March 26, 2010 12:14 PM

oddmanrush

 in the movie the 51's aren't carrying rockets or bombs, especially if they had just been escorting bombers.

Well, we don't know that.  Perhaps the -51 had been carrying a rocket and used its last one on the Tiger....

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by oddmanrush on Friday, March 26, 2010 10:21 AM

I like the movie and thus I try not to pick it apart much. I was thinking, since you mentioned it, that though the P-51's primary mission was to escort bombers wouldn't it have been common place for the fighters to strafe targets of opportunity once the bombing mission had been completed? If that's the case, it could explain why several P-51's came to the rescue. This, however, would bring up another question. Can 6 .50 calibers do that much damage to a Tiger? The Tiger had (correct me if I'm wrong) 26 mm of armor on the turret top and engine deck. Could a .50 cal round penetrate that? Clearly rockets would have been the optimum choice, however, in the movie the 51's aren't carrying rockets or bombs, especially if they had just been escorting bombers.

......unless of course it was actually Capt. Miller's Colt 1911 that destroyed the Tiger and not the P-51's........

Jon

My Blog: The Combat Workshop 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Friday, March 26, 2010 9:17 AM

Hans von Hammer

Biggest issue I had with authenticity was the German haircuts...

If that was your biggest issue, I'd say you were a pretty big fan of the movie.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Friday, March 26, 2010 8:12 AM

Biggest issue I had with authenticity was the German haircuts... The German Heer and Waffen-SS hair regs were quite strict, and the buzz-cuts shown on "Steamboat Willie" and the SS soldier were pretty unlikely...  Most German haircuts were a kind of loose "High & Tight" with long hair on the top and "whitewalls" on the sides... I actually wore a WW2 German hairstyle during my reenactment days and, since I was still on Active Duty, a source of (good-natured) friction between me & my Sergeant Major on several occasions, even though I was still within the scope of AR 670-1...   Had to give it up when we got those stupid berets though...

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Friday, March 26, 2010 12:58 AM

I agree on terminology. But as far as the role of the aircraft itself. Mustang was the hottest fighter in the USAAF in the ETO. They were tasked with the air superiority mission by the time of D-Day, the P-47 and P-38 had the dual fighter bomber role by then, but not the P-51. Not a big deal, save for the aero historian.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Thursday, March 25, 2010 5:00 PM

stikpusher

Tank Busters? I think that was due to what they had flyable for filming. P-47s would have been the best choice, but how many of those are still flying today? Plus I do believe that Spielberg has a "thing" for Mustangs. Just a hunch, but look at "Empire of the Sun". And if you watch the special features Disc with movies he made as kid with a home camera near a desert aircraft boneyard. In the ETO, the few US P-51As were recon photo birds. Most Allison engined US P-51s flew in the MTO or CBI.

I think you can also write that off as 'grunt talk'.  The the lowly infantryman, every tank was a tiger, everytime they got shelled, it was by 88's, and every plane that killed a tank was a tankbuster.  I just don't think it is that big of a deal.

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:30 PM

Capt. Miller and Darby's Rangers. Now here we get in to some "rivet counting". Darby's Rangers were formed in 1942 in the UK, originally the 1st Ranger Battalion. 50 went ashore at Dieppe in August 1942 to get combat experience. After North Africa, the 3rd and later 4th Ranger Battalions were formed and added to the force. They were destroyed at Anzio early in the battle during late January and survivors transferred to the 1st Special Service Force. These Ranger units wore the black, white, and red Ranger scrolls like what is worn on todays Ranger Regiment soldiers (the scroll, not the tab from the school). 

Rudders Rangers, the 2nd and 5th Ranger Battalions, which would go ashore in Normandy were formed in the US and then sent to England as part of the force for Overlord. These Rangers originally wore the Blue and Gold diamond shaped Ranger patch and later adopted the scroll.

I have read of one Ranger officer in Rudder's Rangers that had previously served in Darby's but he was relieved before the invasion. These two battalions had seen no action prior to June 6 and would have had little to no need for replacements coming in to the unit prior to the landing. Except perhaps to replace men injured or killed in training accidents. So possible, yes, probable...? you decide.

As far as uniforms go, the researcher did a great job there. For Overlord, the Ranger Force wore impregnated (an anti gas treatment) HBT fatigues with M41 field jackets and assault vests. What the actors wore in the movie. Helmets were marked as shown with the standard NCO or officers white stripe on the rear of the helmet as an orange diamond with the number of the battalion on the diamond on the back of the helmet as well for all Rangers.

Tank Busters? I think that was due to what they had flyable for filming. P-47s would have been the best choice, but how many of those are still flying today? Plus I do believe that Spielberg has a "thing" for Mustangs. Just a hunch, but look at "Empire of the Sun". And if you watch the special features Disc with movies he made as kid with a home camera near a desert aircraft boneyard. In the ETO, the few US P-51As were recon photo birds. Most Allison engined US P-51s flew in the MTO or CBI.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:37 PM

NEXT:

* Capt. Miller is a Darby Ranger. Their uniforms are completely wrong

* has anyone noticed the complete absense of Browning 30 caliber machine guns with the shoulder stock? This was a weapon widely used by airborne units

* P51D's are tank busters? I think that the term was applied to Typhoons and medium bombers (A20, B26, and Invaders). The P51d was used as an air superiority fighter. Perhaps a P51A?

gary

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:01 AM

Hans, you are truly a man after my own heart.  I have a box full of GI Combat (The Haunted Tank), Sgt Rock, and Weird War comics.  I also have the first 12 (only 12 for that matter) of the Blitzkrieg comic from the German perspective.  Ah Nostalgia!

Well, I didn't pick m' screen name because I thought "Hans" sounded good, lol...  I too spent many hours in my "fort" with "The Combat Happy Joes of Easy Co.", "Jeb Stewart" and Rick, Slim , & Arch, and the rest, like "Enemy Ace", "Lt Steve Savage", and "Johnny Cloud"...

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Spring Branch, TX
Posted by satch_ip on Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:15 AM

Hans von Hammer

That was sarcasm about the moonlanding... Hence the little "devil" emoticon..

I was only talking about fuze arming, but since you brought up the primer issue, Brownie, is it possible that the primers were recessed far enough inside that there wouldn't be any actual strike on the primer?

 

...it was actually Miller, firing a .45 cal round that went down the tube of the main gun on the Tiger and detonated the round there,...

 

That guy read too many "Haunted Tank" comics... Rick (Jeb's gunner) could put a 37mm down the Tiger's tube, but would wait until the loader had the breech open in order for the 37mm round to go down the tube and detonate inside the turret...

Anyhow, the 88's fuze wouldn't be armed, hence a bullet-strike wouldn't set the round off..

Hans, you are truly a man after my own heart.  I have a box full of GI Combat (The Haunted Tank), Sgt Rock, and Weird War comics.  I also have the first 12 (only 12 for that matter) of the Blitzkrieg comic from the German perspective.  Ah Nostalgia!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:08 PM

Aaronw

Don't mortars have a variable charge to adjust range? If so shouldn't it be possible to remove the propellant completely? (assuming you can trick the fuse with the smack on the tail bit).

I kind of addressed this, but to review:  yes, mortars do have removable propellant charges (called increments).  However, even a round fired with charge zero (all increments removed) will travel quite a distance - I don't have firing tables in front of me, but it would be a couple hundred meters for a 60 (I assume).  And, yes, the arming and the firing (at least on modern rounds) are seperate, but that smacking part initiates the firing sequence (and perhaps on WWII rounds the arming as well).

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    September 2015
  • From: The Redwood Empire
Posted by Aaronw on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:04 PM

Some of you are assuming that arming the fuse and firing the propellant go hand in hand. At least on the PIAT this is not the case, the firing pin goes well into a cavity on the round (the PIAT is really more like a rifle grenade in a bazooka looking launcher) so it is not easy to trigger the propellant, but giving it a solid smackdown on the tail will trip the fuse.

Don't mortars have a variable charge to adjust range? If so shouldn't it be possible to remove the propellant completely? (assuming you can trick the fuse with the smack on the tail bit).

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:04 PM

Hans von Hammer

That was sarcasm about the moonlanding... Hence the little "devil" emoticon..

I was only talking about fuze arming, but since you brought up the primer issue, Brownie, is it possible that the primers were recessed far enough inside that there wouldn't be any actual strike on the primer?

Nope.  The primer is flush with the base of the tail.  Smack that puppy on the ground or a rock and you are dropping it directly on the primer.  HOWEVER, on an 81mm mortar round, when the primer goes off, it drives the floating firing pin into the ignition charge, which in term ignites the increments.  The ignition charge is located further up the tail assembly (by a couple of inches), BUT that is on the 81.  I think the ignition charge on the 60mm mortar rounds (because they are significantly shorter than the 81) are  located directly above the primer....

 

Hans von Hammer

...it was actually Miller, firing a .45 cal round that went down the tube of the main gun on the Tiger and detonated the round there,...

That guy read too many "Haunted Tank" comics... Rick (Jeb's gunner) could put a 37mm down the Tiger's tube, but would wait until the loader had the breech open in order for the 37mm round to go down the tube and detonate inside the turret...

Anyhow, the 88's fuze wouldn't be armed, hence a bullet-strike wouldn't set the round off..

Yup....  I just found that perspective a little.... moronic...  I mean, did the guy actually WATCH the movie, for cryin' out loud?

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Goffstown, NH
Posted by New Hampshire on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:48 PM

Killjoy

Wow, are we REALLY going to go there?  This thread will either hit 100 pages or get locked!

Chris

P.S. We did land on the moon.  Just saying......

As Hans said twas a joke.  My tounge was firmly planted in cheek with that statement. Wink

Brian

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:54 PM

That was sarcasm about the moonlanding... Hence the little "devil" emoticon..

I was only talking about fuze arming, but since you brought up the primer issue, Brownie, is it possible that the primers were recessed far enough inside that there wouldn't be any actual strike on the primer?

...it was actually Miller, firing a .45 cal round that went down the tube of the main gun on the Tiger and detonated the round there,...

That guy read too many "Haunted Tank" comics... Rick (Jeb's gunner) could put a 37mm down the Tiger's tube, but would wait until the loader had the breech open in order for the 37mm round to go down the tube and detonate inside the turret...

Anyhow, the 88's fuze wouldn't be armed, hence a bullet-strike wouldn't set the round off..

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Steilacoom, Washington
Posted by Killjoy on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:41 PM

Wow, are we REALLY going to go there?  This thread will either hit 100 pages or get locked!

Chris

P.S. We did land on the moon.  Just saying......

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Goffstown, NH
Posted by New Hampshire on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:32 PM

bbrowniii

By the way, speaking of SPR, I saw a thread on another forum where someone was claiming that, in the final scene, where Miller is shot up at the end of the bridge and the Tiger is coming towards him and he is plinking away at it with his .45, that it was actually Miller, firing a .45 cal round that went down the tube of the main gun on the Tiger and detonated the round there, that destroyed the tank and not the fighter that flew overhead a second later...Confused

Hey, in Hollywierd ANYTHING is possible!  I mean, look at the moon landings.  They made them so real people actually think we went to the moon when all along it was done on a sound stage! Devil

Brian

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 6:36 PM

That guy probably thinks "Steamboat Willie" is the one who knifes Fisch also...No

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 6:33 PM

Sounds like a job for

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 6:25 PM

Interesting page but it didn't answer the ultimate question about how those rounds are armed.  Still, based on the information I currently have available, I'm going to move this myth from the 'Busted' pile into the 'Plausible'....Geeked

By the way, speaking of SPR, I saw a thread on another forum where someone was claiming that, in the final scene, where Miller is shot up at the end of the bridge and the Tiger is coming towards him and he is plinking away at it with his .45, that it was actually Miller, firing a .45 cal round that went down the tube of the main gun on the Tiger and detonated the round there, that destroyed the tank and not the fighter that flew overhead a second later...Confused

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:37 PM

I just found this link to a table of comparison from an Army.mil webpage about comparison of old (presume WW2) and new (current) 60mm mortar rounds. look about 1/4 down the page. I could not get the images to transfer.

 

https://rdl.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/10575-1/ACCP/MM25987/lsn.htm#chart

 

 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:21 PM

I am right with you there. I am curious as to how plausible it is. Sounds like a great one for Mythbusters to examine. I can pretty much buy the banging to arm the fuse as long as the round is gripped midsection. Like a bang stick or zip gun it will let your hand know its there, but in that tight of combat bruising is low on priorties. Liek you said, "throw another one!" I can't find anything online to specificly say how they were armed. Much of what has been mentioned here are all modern (Vietnam and later) rounds and fuses. Obviously the launch method has not changed at all since first invented (a perfect example of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" ). Fusing I suspect were much simpler, timer or impact. VT was not allowed to be used in anything but AAA until the Battle of the Bulge due to its' secrecy. Only then was it released to FA as a nasty surprise to the Germans. I will say that i am learning for more about mortars here than I knew before. All I knew was call for fire...Stick out tongue You called, they delivered.

Here are the four types of 60mm rounds in service:training, HE, WP-Smoke, and Illum. Nice and simple.

File:60mm-Mortar-Rounds.jpg

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:00 PM

Stik,

Mayyyyyybe... but I'm still skeptical.  Granted, I've never been in a situation where I needed (or was inclinded) to try it, but there is still the issue of, in effect replacing the mortar tube with your hand and holding the round after the igniting and booster charges are fired...  seems a bit unlikely to me.  I mean, look at the size of the charge (I know it is an 81, but the 60 is not much smaller - definately larger, or about the same as the 12-gauge shell), on the site you linked to...  A lot of pressure is being released.  That is going to have some ooomph.  Granted, much of it will dissipate due to the absence of the tube, but...

Then there is the issue of throwing the round hard enough and far enough for the round to spin enough to arm the fuse (assuming as I am that WWII rounds armed through rotation as do modern rounds).

The fact of it is, when I see the scene in the movie, part of my mind says, "Hmmm, not so fast", but another part of my mind says, "Yeah, throw another one at those Kraut bastards!"

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:36 PM

Here is a link to a list of current 60mm mortar rounds and fuses. At least since the 1980s when the 60mm came back in to US Army service

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mortar/60mm.html

Now looking at the diagram of the round if one holds the forward portion of the round and not the tail assembly, it looks like the propellant gasses bbIII talks about would miss the hands... kind of like during the firing of  a revolver.

 

below are typical WW2 60mm US mortar rounds

and some info on WWII era rounds

http://www.inert-ord.net/usa03a/usa5/6081/60mm.html

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:10 PM

Hans von Hammer

Not all motars are spin-armed, some fuzes are armed by "Set-Back", meaning that the prop charge exploding and subsequent rapid acceleration (G-force) is what arms it.. Whacking the round's tail on the firing plate to arm it is quite plausable ... I don't how hard you have to hit it though, but I'd imagine it's a pretty good shock, more than can be generated by dropping it... I know that on some arty set-back fuzes, it takes a minimum of 25 Gs to arm it..  Some are dual or triple-arming, meaning they can be armed by set-back, spin, or time, or combinations thereof. 

VT (Variable Time) fuzes are time fuzes, but they aren't mechanical time fuzes... VT fuzes have a small radio transceiver in them that acts like a radar.. It detonates when the signal it sends out bounces off an object and back to it's receiver... The time is set  for safety (to prevent premature functioning), back-up functioning,  and for self-destruct if the transceiver fails...   In WW2, the VT fuze was a top-secret US weapon that was designed for AAA gun rounds and tube artillery, never had any VT-fuzed mortars...

I think your refering to the M119 (I think that's the right number). It does have a time setting dial on the botton of the fuse that's use to clear anything along it's path before going off 20 meters above ground. The housing is an O.D. plastic with the ring being anodized black. Expensive little boggers as well, and not well liked by the crews. Didn't work anybetter than a plain jane 565 or a 564. Mortars used time fuses mostly for illumination rounds, and once in a great while they'd do aerial burst WP.

gary

  • Member since
    June 2007
Posted by squeakie on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:00 PM

richs26

 44Mac:
Been awhile since I seen it but the ability to talk is rule number one otherwise you could catch those 14's. After all, they are aitrborne rangers. There is also a VT (Variable time) fuze that goes a preset time after the "smack". The first service to adopt the M16 as the AR15 was the USAF. Had a few in my Armory at one time that had that stamp on the receiver. Used to have a bunch of 20 rd mags with that stamp untill an officer who has no name saw them. Sqeakie, you remember the comic book PM to teach you to clean it?
                                                          Cheers, Mac

 

The Air Force bought the M-16 after Eugene Stoner showed the AR-15 to Gen Curtis LeMay at a dinner party, and they were shooting at watermelons.  Gen LeMay saw that it would be perfect for USAF SP's (the actual "rivet counters" guarding the B-52's and KC's on alert duty.  The original AF purchase M-16's didn'thave forward assist levers and the lower receivers were marked AR-15.  When I qualified with the M-16 at Lackland for AF basic in '87, we used original M-16's with no forward assist.  As of 2007, my old CE squadron at Eielson AFB had at least three M-16's with lower receivers serial numbered at 11,xxx with no letter prefix meaning they wre part of the original AF purchase.  They had new upper receivers with forward assist, new barrels, and the burst control which was engraved with an engraving tool on the selector switch as burst instead of auto.

forward assist showed up sometime in mid 1968. I never had a forward assist gun, but the newbies had them. What is really interesting was the short barreled version of the CAR15 never had the forward assist as well, and with that ten inch barrel it really needed it

gary

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 9:04 AM

Hans von Hammer

Not all motars are spin-armed, some fuzes are armed by "Set-Back", meaning that the prop charge exploding and subsequent rapid acceleration (G-force) is what arms it.. Whacking the round's tail on the firing plate to arm it is quite plausable ... I don't how hard you have to hit it though, but I'd imagine it's a pretty good shock, more than can be generated by dropping it...

Again, the problem is, you are ignoring the 'consequence' of whacking that mortar round on the tail.  When you fire a mortar, you drop the round down the tube.  The weight of the round dropping onto the firing pin fires the shell in the tail, which propels the round out of the tube.  So, if they are replicating that without the tube, as they are in SPR, what they are going to get is the same result - a round being fired, except that instead of it being enclosed (and directed) by the tube, it is being held in a hand.  Granted, one result of that is that much of the force that would have been channeled upward by the tube will be dissipated.  But there is still going to be a heck of a lot of force being released.  As I said, even mortar rounds fired with a charge of zero (no additional propellant bags, just the force of the propellant in the tail) will travel quite a distance - I don't have my firing tables in front of me, so I can't give you exact ranges.  But that doesn't matter - what matters is, when you whack that round on the ground, tail first, the primer will ignite, driving the firing pin (technically a 'floating firing pin') into the ignition charge, which will flash out the holes on the shaft of the round (that is how the increments - the propellant charges - are ignited).  The ignition charge also expels force back down the shaft tail of the round, 'firing it' (agian - the zero increment situation I mentioned).  So, our heros are replacing a 1/2" metal tube with their hands, and 'firing' a mortar round....

Here, I'll give you a way to simulate - go grab a shotgun shell, lets say 20-gauge, for arguments sake.  Now hold it in your had and smack the primer against something hard until it goes off.  Now, come back and report on how your hand feels.

Hans, you are correct about VT fuses - I was describing Mechanical Time (MT) fuses and in my haste, used the wrong nomenclature...

By the way, on the issue of fuses (and not to go all 0341 on you - that's the Marine Corps MOS designation for mortarman, by the way), but there are four basic types of fuses (five if you count dummy, but that is irrelevant to this discussion):

Point Detonating (PD) - rounds fused this way are called 'superquick' in that they will detonate when the fuze impacts on a hard surface

Proximity (VT) - as Hans said, these emit radio waves out the nose of the projectile and, depending on the setting on the fuse, detonates when the radio waves reach a certain 'intensity'

Mechanical Time (MT) - these fuzes work with a clockwork mechanism that delays their detonation to a specific time after firing - most commonly found on illumination rounds to set the height of the burst and effect the expanse of the illumination

Multioption (MO) - these have three settings: proximity, impact (aka superquick), and delay (round will penetrate to a certain depth, depending on how hard the surface is, before detonating)

If we are taking SPR as 'accurate', I'd guess they were using PD fuses...  I've still got issues with the firing thing, though....

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:38 AM

squeakie

     Onto the mortars rounds again. U.S. mortar tubes are rifled

Actually, they are not rifled.  The 81-mm (the M252) and the 60-mm (the M224) mortars are smooth bore weapons. 

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:59 AM

Not all motars are spin-armed, some fuzes are armed by "Set-Back", meaning that the prop charge exploding and subsequent rapid acceleration (G-force) is what arms it.. Whacking the round's tail on the firing plate to arm it is quite plausable ... I don't how hard you have to hit it though, but I'd imagine it's a pretty good shock, more than can be generated by dropping it... I know that on some arty set-back fuzes, it takes a minimum of 25 Gs to arm it..  Some are dual or triple-arming, meaning they can be armed by set-back, spin, or time, or combinations thereof. 

VT (Variable Time) fuzes are time fuzes, but they aren't mechanical time fuzes... VT fuzes have a small radio transceiver in them that acts like a radar.. It detonates when the signal it sends out bounces off an object and back to it's receiver... The time is set  for safety (to prevent premature functioning), back-up functioning,  and for self-destruct if the transceiver fails...   In WW2, the VT fuze was a top-secret US weapon that was designed for AAA gun rounds and tube artillery, never had any VT-fuzed mortars...

JOIN OUR COMMUNITY!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

SEARCH FORUMS
FREE NEWSLETTER
By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. View our Privacy Policy.