Saving Private Ryan - this has been bugging me

I don't know about US mortars but the British PIAT could have its rounds armed by wacking the tail down on a hard surface. The Para's in Arnhem lost many of their PIATs but were able to use the rounds as big grenades. I think they did show this in A Bridge to far so it is possible the SPR people saw this and thought it was cool, or maybe the US 60mm could also do this.

The Japanese 50mm mortar rounds could be fused for use as hand grenades which could be another source for the idea. 

44Mac

Been awhile since I seen it but the ability to talk is rule number one otherwise you could catch those 14's. After all, they are aitrborne rangers. There is also a VT (Variable time) fuze that goes a preset time after the "smack". The first service to adopt the M16 as the AR15 was the USAF. Had a few in my Armory at one time that had that stamp on the receiver. Used to have a bunch of 20 rd mags with that stamp untill an officer who has no name saw them. Sqeakie, you remember the comic book PM to teach you to clean it?

                                                          Cheers, Mac

44Mac

Been awhile since I seen it but the ability to talk is rule number one otherwise you could catch those 14's. After all, they are aitrborne rangers. There is also a VT (Variable time) fuze that goes a preset time after the "smack". The first service to adopt the M16 as the AR15 was the USAF. Had a few in my Armory at one time that had that stamp on the receiver. Used to have a bunch of 20 rd mags with that stamp untill an officer who has no name saw them. Sqeakie, you remember the comic book PM to teach you to clean it?

                                                          Cheers, Mac

when I was in basic training they had everybody goto a class on the new black rifle, and spend a couple days at the range with one (that is if you had a Combat At Arms MOS). We never cleaned them! But they did teach us how to break one down all the way for cleaning. When I went to AIT, everybody that got orders for the combat zone had to goto the class again. This time we all cleaned the rifles in a class. Stateside the only guys I saw with the M16 were the one brigade left behind at Campbell. Everybody there carried one. What was funny was that I qualified at about 3/4" with one that must have been shot ten thousand times. Then when I went overseas they gave me an AR15 that was on the recall list! The thing shot so fast that it sounded like buzz saw! We went to a range and zeroed them in (I was still in the replacement depot). Then the last night I was in the replacement depot we went to the same range again for a night shoot. We were the ones that got ambushed on the way back (nobody got hurt, but our egos and shorts sure took a beating!). When we left Charger Academy (that's the correct name) and got down to Gator they gave me 21 twenty round magazines. Back to the comic book; I have one! It came with my Bushmaster.

     Onto the mortars rounds again. U.S. mortar tubes are rifled (he was using a 60mm), but not sure about WWII stuff. But I do know that a normal PD fuse has to be centrifically activated. (clockwise by the way)

gary

44Mac

Been awhile since I seen it but the ability to talk is rule number one otherwise you could catch those 14's. After all, they are aitrborne rangers. There is also a VT (Variable time) fuze that goes a preset time after the "smack". The first service to adopt the M16 as the AR15 was the USAF. Had a few in my Armory at one time that had that stamp on the receiver. Used to have a bunch of 20 rd mags with that stamp untill an officer who has no name saw them. Sqeakie, you remember the comic book PM to teach you to clean it?

                                                          Cheers, Mac

when I was in basic training they had everybody goto a class on the new black rifle, and spend a couple days at the range with one (that is if you had a Combat At Arms MOS). We never cleaned them! But they did teach us how to break one down all the way for cleaning. When I went to AIT, everybody that got orders for the combat zone had to goto the class again. This time we all cleaned the rifles in a class. Stateside the only guys I saw with the M16 were the one brigade left behind at Campbell. Everybody there carried one. What was funny was that I qualified at about 3/4" with one that must have been shot ten thousand times. Then when I went overseas they gave me an AR15 that was on the recall list! The thing shot so fast that it sounded like buzz saw! We went to a range and zeroed them in (I was still in the replacement depot). Then the last night I was in the replacement depot we went to the same range again for a night shoot. We were the ones that got ambushed on the way back (nobody got hurt, but our egos and shorts sure took a beating!). When we left Charger Academy (that's the correct name) and got down to Gator they gave me 21 twenty round magazines. Back to the comic book; I have one! It came with my Bushmaster.

     Onto the mortars rounds again. U.S. mortar tubes are rifled (he was using a 60mm), but not sure about WWII stuff. But I do know that a normal PD fuse has to be centrifically activated. (clockwise by the way)

gary

44Mac

 There is also a VT (Variable time) fuze that goes a preset time after the "smack".

Yeah, but VT is usually something you are going to use for an airburst, and the time setting is going to be so long that they'd never keep it in the air that long (or they'd have to throw it where they thought the Germans would be in 45 seconds...)

Also, as I said, the ultimate problem is that initial 'smack'...

Hmmmm....  I've been thinking about that.

Modern fuses have a proximity and a point detonating setting (basically - there are a few variants, like the newer 'Multi-option fuses', but for the sake of this discussion, we'll ignore those).  Most rounds have a 'bursting charge' that is ignited by the booster in the fuse on impact.  So, the issue isn't so much the 'range', because arguably you can fire a mortar straight up, and the round will detonate even though it only 'travels' a few meters.  The issue is getting the round high enough for the impact to trigger the fuse and thus, set off the bursting charge (which detonates the round).

The real question is, how was the smacking on the rock supposed to work - basically what is inside the fin end of the mortar round is a shotgun shell which ignites and, along with propellant charges on the side of the round, give the round its 'ooomph'...  if they were being completely realistic, smacking the round on the rock, triggering the shotgun round should have resulted in the rounds ripping out of their hands (even with no propellant charges, the round will stil travel quite a ways), but since there was no tube to direct them, the rounds, along with the fingers of the guys who held it and smacked it on the rock, would have gone all over the place...

Any 18Bs or 11Cs around? In the film they bang the round against a hard surface to replicate the firing and supposedly activate the fuse. Is that possible? I only know mortars from watching them fire and watching them impact. And the sound of them going overhead.... Are mortars rifled and the spins activate the fuse, or smoothe bored and does time after launch or launch itself activate the fuse for impact?

44Mac

I was thinking the Texas and 14". I just guesed somebody had a radio and they had comm. But then just because you have a radio does not mean you have comm...

                                                                           Cheers, Mac

If you recall, when Capt Miller and the boys arrive at the Para's pos, and Miller and the para Platoon Sergeant are talking about their tactical situation, he (the para) makes the point that they have been out of contact since they landed... 

squeakie

    Now back to Pvt. Ryan. How does one make a mortar round explode without activating the fuse? All fuses used by the U.S. activate via centrifical force

gary

I have always been curious about that too, but realize that most movies take liberties when the plot needs it.

I believe Hollywood explosive experts use an item called a squib...

Oh wait, you were asking about real life, weren't you?

44Mac

.222 Rem Mag is the civilian version of the .224 Springfield wich was also a candidate with the .223 Rem. The .223 is a .222 with a longer case and shorter neck. The .223 ended the career of the military .224 and the civilian .222 Mag. The .223 became the M193 Ball round with a 55 grain bullet. When we began replacing our M16A1s with A2s they used the M855 Ball wich had a steel cored 62 grain bullet and as the A2 had a 1 in 7 twist for the 855 and the A1 a 1 in 12 twist for the 193 we wern't allowed to interchange weapons and ammo. As for church bell towers they were usually the first thing to go in any town the allies came to starting with Vierville sur Mer and the USS Harding. That brings up another question. If the town was so important where was the naval gunfire support? 

                                                                                   Cheers, Mac

The .222 case family was Mike Waker's brain child, and it predates the M16 by over ten years. The next round after the .222 was the .222 magnum (note the same neck & taper). Next came the .223 and the .221 Fireball with different necks and similar tapers. The first AR15's were actually chambered in .222 Remington, and then .223 for the production run. The title of M16 didn't come around till the Army adopted them for good (a lot of military M16's were actually labled AR15's [I was issued one]) The first AR15/M16's were chambered in .223 with a 1:13 twist barrel. Had the short buffer and light weight spring. No chrome inside. Later they went with a heavy buffer and the light spring, and a few weeks later a heavy spring with the heavy buffer. A couple months later they came out with the chrome lined barrel, bolt carrier, and firing pin (I was caught up in that evolution. And finally the did away with the three pronged flash supressor and went with the bird cage. The .222 Remington was the first true target round after the 38-55, and was the bench rest king for years.

    Now back to Pvt. Ryan. How does one make a mortar round explode without activating the fuse? All fuses used by the U.S. activate via centrifical force

gary

I was thinking the Texas and 14". I just guesed somebody had a radio and they had comm. But then just because you have a radio does not mean you have comm...

                                                                           Cheers, Mac

44Mac

That brings up another question. If the town was so important where was the naval gunfire support? 

                                                                                   Cheers, Mac

Well, there are probably a lot of reasons, but the most significant: Lack of COMM...  Can't just go winging 5", 8" and bigger shells all willy-nilly without someone to tell you what to shoot at...

.222 Rem Mag is the civilian version of the .224 Springfield wich was also a candidate with the .223 Rem. The .223 is a .222 with a longer case and shorter neck. The .223 ended the career of the military .224 and the civilian .222 Mag. The .223 became the M193 Ball round with a 55 grain bullet. When we began replacing our M16A1s with A2s they used the M855 Ball wich had a steel cored 62 grain bullet and as the A2 had a 1 in 7 twist for the 855 and the A1 a 1 in 12 twist for the 193 we wern't allowed to interchange weapons and ammo. As for church bell towers they were usually the first thing to go in any town the allies came to starting with Vierville sur Mer and the USS Harding. That brings up another question. If the town was so important where was the naval gunfire support? 

                                                                                   Cheers, Mac

What I find funny is that you all complain about that sniper, and not the fact that one actually took out the driver by spraying with the Thompson trough the slit....

Panzerglass, as it is called, is a very thick, highly bulletproof piece of glas that was on every visionslit of German vehicles. If it now did get shattered, it can be swaped by a new piece in less than 5 seconds.

Also, the infantry would never get that close to the tank in the first place. The German infantry would mow them down, or the tank would. The hull MG seems to just "be there" for the looks in Hollywood movies. You also have the co-axial MG on the turret. Plus the holes here and there for the crew to use their MP40's trough.

HVH: You are very true. Few knows about the combat lock, and it sure existed! Very helpful piece of engineering.

And for those who don't know, the Tiger tanks in SPR aren't built on a T-34 chassis. They are built around a T-34/85....

And all Waffen SS being war criminals? Heh.. right...

SPR is a movie, true. Not everything can be true to reality. Granted...  But SPR isn't really a good movie neither. Studying film,  and hopefully one day make some myself, I don't really like SPR. It's just another movie, and there is nothing spectacular about it. Just the openingscene was spectacular, IMO. SPR, in my eyes, is just another movie..

-Lasse

 To the location of a sniper, I recall an episode of "Combat"... wish that would come back on...the Germans had snipers in the tress that were picking off the GI's pretty much at will.  A new guy in Saunder's platoon was a tree expert before the war and noticed there where clumps of branches/leaves that were a different species in some of the trees.  They would shoot into these areas and a sniper would fall to the ground and the Americans were able to advance.  I read somewhere that this was based on a true incident, but who knows.

If you guys had ever read "Our Army at War" comic books starring Sgt. Rock, you'd know that all it takes is one guy with a Thompson to take out any armored vehicle, combat locked or not,   JEESH!!

Yeah, and th' 37mm on "The Haunted Tank" can knock out a Tiger...

Hans von Hammer

Couple of things... One, Ryan was out of ammo, had dozens of bullets whacking into the wall he was using as cover and was totaly and completely pinned down...   About the only thing he had left to do was to crawl inside his helmet and use harsh language...  He was out of the fight, totally helpless, knew was about to die and there was nothing he could do about it...  How any of us would handle that situation is unkown until it actually you find yourself in it... Personally, I'd probably act the same way, but with the added issue of having to find some new trousers if I survived...

Another is the fact that Jackson didn't use the steeple as a sniper's nest.. It was an OP and a .30 cal MG position...  Jackson's job during the final battle was to observe & report, and then once the fight was on,  defend the .30 cal...  If he did anything "wrong", it was probably not grabbing an M1 instead of limiting himself to the 'Aught-three... He cut his volume of fire down by about half using it...  On the other hand, he probably hadn't handled an M1 since basic training, so his effectiveness with it is up for debate... 

As for him leaving the area and taking up a position farther away to take shots at the oncoming enemy, that just wasn't gonna happen in a situation like they were in...  It wouldn't have done any good at all, and Jackson would have effectively been out of the fight after a couple shots...

What I find hard to swallow is why 6-12 guys jumped on the tiger to kill the crew

It was more like 4, although I see your point... If the tank crew had their tank longer than a day or two, they'd know to have it combat locked and  no grunt is gonna be able to get a hatch open...   Also, being infantry, It's quite likely though that they didn't know about the combat locks on armored vehicles.. For those of you not familiar with 'em either,  some (or all) hatches have inside locks that cannot be operated from outside the tank or AFV... If the crew has them engaged, you ain't geting in without a cutting torch...

 

I'm y'all have seen the video of  the nutball that stole an M60 and went on a rampage with it in California... One of the cops was successful in shooting the guy after he opened a hatch.  If he'd had it combat locked. they would never have gotten him out...

If you guys had ever read "Our Army at War" comic books starring Sgt. Rock, you'd know that all it takes is one guy with a Thompson to take out any armored vehicle, combat locked or not,   JEESH!!

Couple of things... One, Ryan was out of ammo, had dozens of bullets whacking into the wall he was using as cover and was totaly and completely pinned down...   About the only thing he had left to do was to crawl inside his helmet and use harsh language...  He was out of the fight, totally helpless, knew was about to die and there was nothing he could do about it...  How any of us would handle that situation is unkown until it actually you find yourself in it... Personally, I'd probably act the same way, but with the added issue of having to find some new trousers if I survived...

Another is the fact that Jackson didn't use the steeple as a sniper's nest.. It was an OP and a .30 cal MG position...  Jackson's job during the final battle was to observe & report, and then once the fight was on,  defend the .30 cal...  If he did anything "wrong", it was probably not grabbing an M1 instead of limiting himself to the 'Aught-three... He cut his volume of fire down by about half using it...  On the other hand, he probably hadn't handled an M1 since basic training, so his effectiveness with it is up for debate... 

As for him leaving the area and taking up a position farther away to take shots at the oncoming enemy, that just wasn't gonna happen in a situation like they were in...  It wouldn't have done any good at all, and Jackson would have effectively been out of the fight after a couple shots...

What I find hard to swallow is why 6-12 guys jumped on the tiger to kill the crew

It was more like 4, although I see your point... If the tank crew had their tank longer than a day or two, they'd know to have it combat locked and  no grunt is gonna be able to get a hatch open...   Also, being infantry, It's quite likely though that they didn't know about the combat locks on armored vehicles.. For those of you not familiar with 'em either,  some (or all) hatches have inside locks that cannot be operated from outside the tank or AFV... If the crew has them engaged, you ain't geting in without a cutting torch...

I'm y'all have seen the video of  the nutball that stole an M60 and went on a rampage with it in California... One of the cops was successful in shooting the guy after he opened a hatch.  If he'd had it combat locked. they would never have gotten him out...

If I was a sniper I would not have cornered myself in a bell tower although it was good for relaying info on troop movemen and for the machine gun position. Intel could have been done by someone else other than the sniper. I believe my spot would have been on the other side of the river shooting at the enemy coming down the road head on.

What I find hard to swallow is why 6-12 guys jumped on the tiger to kill the crew when one or two could have. I doubt that would happen in real combat. 

One last thing, I would not let just one guy distribute all the 30 cal for the machine guns.

After looking at one of the pics it does seem plausible to hit that position or at least right below it.

New Hampshire

squeakie:

New Hampshire:

Hey Gary,

Again, I use the term "hollow point" carefully.  As I said, it is not a Hollow Point as we traditionally think (in that a hollow point for hunting purposes are inteded to expand to a larger size than their bore diameter.)  In the match bullet world the "hollow point" is really more just a cavity of dead air.  Here you can see what I mean (and I may be mistaken, but I believe Sierra provide the military with their match bullets):

http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=rifle&brandID=1

In that image you can see the cavity.  It is NOT meant to expand, merely place the center of gravity slightly more to the rear of the projectile.  But being that it is a cavity none the less it will still deforme more than ball (which as we know does not have that cavity) that is meant to penetrate more on softened targets.  I am pretty sure that the snipers (again, I don't quite know as much about the Army in this respect) have a designated person that handloads all their ammo, though this may have changed lately (since we have seen an abundance in high tech manufacturing processes.)

But I too have noticed the trend drifting more away from the standard .308/7.62 towards more efficient cartridges (.338 Lapua, .300 Win Mag, and I see that the .416 Barrett that he built as a way around the silly California regs is turning out to be quite the revolution).  It is hardly suprising though.  Every month the gun magazines are touting new collaborative offerings that are taking advantage of technological processes (much to the annoyance of the "old timers" )

Brian

 

If that bullet has anykind of an opening at the tip, it is in violation of the Geneva Convention.

Actually you are thinking of the Hauge Convention (which predates the Geneva Convention) of which the U.S. was never a signatory, but still abides to it regardless.  And no the Sierra Match bullets do not have an opening in them as they are, once again, not intended for use as an expanding bullet.

Brian

take a good look at a box of Sierra 69 and 53 grain match bullets (#1400 & #1380) I don't have any 30 caliber NM bullets to compair, but in other calibers most all are hollow points if they are NM bullets. The military NM bullet for 30 caliber is usually 175 grain full metal jacketed boat tail bullet. (#M118 current) . The older round used in the 30-06 was a full metal faceted boat tail weighing in at 173 grains and had a # M72. There is a competetive match round for the .308 that uses the 168 grain serirra BTHP national match bullet, but this is also listed as a non combat load.

gary

44Mac

Actually the 5.56 NATO is a necked up .222 Remington.

                                                               Cheers, Mac

the .222 Remington, and the .223 use the same bullet. The .223 case is a shortened .222 Remington magnum case, not the normal .222 (it's also too short). A few folks actually have tried to neck down the 30-06 case to .223, and the results were a complete disaster. Later they tried to do the samething with a 7x57 Mauser, and it wasn't a lot better (but it did work with a 6mm bullet quite well). So the next move was to neck down the .308 / .243 case to .223. Shot better but the barrels were done after about 600 rounds. Then somebody realized the answer had already been done for eons. We call that round the 22-250 now. Now they are taking the 250 case and necking it up again for the 6mm bullet. This is known as the 6XC, and is winning target matches everywhere. It's nothing but a merry go round

gary

Bgrigg

Snort! Snicker!!

I believe he is referring to Bill AB50 AKA the .50 Caliber BMG Regulation Act of 2004, which classifies all .50 cals as being 'assault weapons' in order to 'prevent their use as a terrorist weapon' and effectively outlaws their sale, except to California State Agency. Barrett has announced that they would no longer sell any weapons to California agencies, in retaliation (good for them!).

Interestingly, there are no reports of a .50 caliber weapon being used to murder anyone in the US, nor has it been used as a weapon during the committing of a criminal act. So, I guess the bill works, like my anti-Tiger talisman does. After all, it must work, as there ain't no tigers around me!

The .416 is a "necked down" .50 cartridge and sidesteps the bill's limits. It turns out the smaller size has a flatter trajectory, which is a decided benefit.

the 416 Cheytec will replace both of them in the end

gary

 I was just gonna say that. They showed a better perspective of sniper technique there than in most movies. Many flaws in that movie too, but overall a very watchable good show.

Aaronw

Of course its not just SPR, I can't think of one movie that hasn't placed the sniper 1/2 out the window of a tower or top floor of a building.

Which is why I love the sniper scenes from Enemy at the Gates!

Going back more to the original topic, I thought the snipers location in the tower alongside the 30 cal mg was a rather amatuer location for a sniper. I mean this guy was supposed to be a great sniper and he picks a spot that a person with nothing more than an interest in military history recognizes as a poor choice (me).

A sniper at the window sill in an obvious point is a poor spot, bell towerrs are specifically given as a bad spot in everything I've ever read, because the enemy will immediately assume that is the snipers location and obliterate it.

Ideally the sniper is located back into the gloom of a building interior, to hide the sniper and muzzle flash, with enough elevation to offer a good view of the approaching enemy without being the highest thing around to draw random fire.

Of course its not just SPR, I can't think of one movie that hasn't placed the sniper 1/2 out the window of a tower or top floor of a building.

squeakie

New Hampshire:

Hey Gary,

Again, I use the term "hollow point" carefully.  As I said, it is not a Hollow Point as we traditionally think (in that a hollow point for hunting purposes are inteded to expand to a larger size than their bore diameter.)  In the match bullet world the "hollow point" is really more just a cavity of dead air.  Here you can see what I mean (and I may be mistaken, but I believe Sierra provide the military with their match bullets):

http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=rifle&brandID=1

In that image you can see the cavity.  It is NOT meant to expand, merely place the center of gravity slightly more to the rear of the projectile.  But being that it is a cavity none the less it will still deforme more than ball (which as we know does not have that cavity) that is meant to penetrate more on softened targets.  I am pretty sure that the snipers (again, I don't quite know as much about the Army in this respect) have a designated person that handloads all their ammo, though this may have changed lately (since we have seen an abundance in high tech manufacturing processes.)

But I too have noticed the trend drifting more away from the standard .308/7.62 towards more efficient cartridges (.338 Lapua, .300 Win Mag, and I see that the .416 Barrett that he built as a way around the silly California regs is turning out to be quite the revolution).  It is hardly suprising though.  Every month the gun magazines are touting new collaborative offerings that are taking advantage of technological processes (much to the annoyance of the "old timers" )

Brian

 

If that bullet has anykind of an opening at the tip, it is in violation of the Geneva Convention.

Actually you are thinking of the Hauge Convention (which predates the Geneva Convention) of which the U.S. was never a signatory, but still abides to it regardless.  And no the Sierra Match bullets do not have an opening in them as they are, once again, not intended for use as an expanding bullet.

Brian

Hey, what do you expect from a state where EVERYTHING causes cancer!

Bgrigg

Snort! Snicker!!

I believe he is referring to Bill AB50 AKA the .50 Caliber BMG Regulation Act of 2004, which classifies all .50 cals as being 'assault weapons' in order to 'prevent their use as a terrorist weapon' and effectively outlaws their sale, except to California State Agency. Barrett has announced that they would no longer sell any weapons to California agencies, in retaliation (good for them!).

Interestingly, there are no reports of a .50 caliber weapon being used to murder anyone in the US, nor has it been used as a weapon during the committing of a criminal act. So, I guess the bill works, like my anti-Tiger talisman does. After all, it must work, as there ain't no tigers around me!

The .416 is a "necked down" .50 cartridge and sidesteps the bill's limits. It turns out the smaller size has a flatter trajectory, which is a decided benefit.