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Weathering Details Modelers Miss--in real photos (from AAF museum)

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  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:17 PM

Yup, it was 34079, and before the CARC/NATO Green, just about every new or refurbished bit of painted US Army gear was in that paint color during the 80's. From antennas, radios and fire extinguishers to AFVs.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

cb1
  • Member since
    December 2009
  • From: D/FW Texas
Posted by cb1 on Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:54 AM

Pawel, your right. When we painted the vehicle we were handed two 5 gallon buckets of paint and we had to thin and spray on with one of those electric paint guns. That is until the truck with the air compressor showed up and then we used the air paint gun.

It was a mess to paint. LOL I ruined a brand new set of coveralls painting that beast. But it looked good enough! LOL

If my memory serves, the paint was called NATO Forest Green and it had some NBC properties to help wash off any nasty chemicals that the Soviets may toss at us.  Pactra (sp?) used to make a paint called Forest Green which matched very well.

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:47 AM

Chris, that sure is a grat reference! Thanks for sharing! My observation is - even the brand new Bradley looks like it is pre-shaded - the color isn't uniform on the vehicle.

Thanks again, and have a nice day!

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

cb1
  • Member since
    December 2009
  • From: D/FW Texas
Posted by cb1 on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:34 PM

Thanks guys!

Now these pictures I didn't take, a close friend of mine took these at a demo at the old 50th AD in New Jersey back in1983 or 1984. Even though they are black and white, these vehicles saw a lot less "action" then in a active duty line battalion.

Enjoy!

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 10:06 PM

Holy cow, Chris! My jaw is STILL on the floor! What a great set of photos! There's nothing like personal photos with stories behind them! I love the ad hoc camo!!!

Thanks for a sincerely great post!!!

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 12:54 PM

I LOVE all the mud thrown by the 88 onto the towed Bradley... oh that would have been fun to clean... ;-) The white winter temporary camo is great stuff too!

Lots of nice photos. A great detail comparison is the shovel on the 3rd photo down (looks like it just came from Sears) compared to the one in the bottom photo (apparently GI repainted).

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

cb1
  • Member since
    December 2009
  • From: D/FW Texas
Posted by cb1 on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:26 AM

I'd like to share some photos I took while in active duty as a Bradley crewman. I was a driver for 2 years and a gunner for 1 year before I got out.

While the excellent photos of the AAVs show good wear, that wear is not typical of vehicles that do not operate in sand.

 

I have two sets of photos to share, the first set is of a vehicle that I received new from the factory in 1985. IT literally had zero hours on the meter when we started it up. The second set is of a older vehicle that I signed for when I went to Germany. From what I remember, this vehicle was already 2 years old when I got there in1986. What I am showing is how the vehicles fared during multiple field exercises.

The First set shows the new vehicles at delivery through the desert training in Ft Irwin CA. My unit was attached to an armor battalion who had a commander who loved the field. We deployed every other week for the whole year I was at Ft Hood. So these vehicles were constantly in use. Not to mention dirty and washed a lot.

During the three weeks in the Cali desert I lost the rubber off the rear-most two sets of road wheels twice. The track pads were pretty much gone and the paint on the inner surface of the road wheels was worn off.  

On to the pics!! Ft Hood and the new vehicles..

a brand new M3 Bradley

First ride in our brand new M2s, note the tape on the smoke grenade launchers and periscopes

on the move

The guy climbing on top is the Bradley instructor.

Swimming the vehicles

in the field

at the wash rack

Other vehicles -

in the rain

after being towed in by a M88 (transmission failure)

These are from Germany

in the CA desert, I only have one photo, I didn't take my camera with me.

What I'm trying to show is that I didn't see rust, I didn't see chipping, I saw paint worn off from rubbing brush and equipment. Tracks never rusted on active vehicles. And in Germany we painted our vehicles once a year because of the NBC properties in the paint.

Fresh paint in 1986

I hope this helps

Chris

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 6:58 PM

They look great, Pawel! Glad to see that this neat little thread and all the cool contributions is helping out with other's builds!

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:35 AM

Hello everybody!

Just wanted to thank Karl for posting this thread. But I also wanted to let you know, it came just at the right moment for me. Using tips from this thread, I just painted this:

More infos to the build: http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/3/p/146938/1639345.aspx

Thanks again for posting and good luck with your projects

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Monday, February 11, 2013 12:11 PM

Thanks again for starting this thread Karl, and thanks to everyone who's chipped (sorry) in here. I love reading stuff like this, it's a great learning experience and hearing different points of view is a major advantage over a one point perspective like a book or magazine article.

Cliff

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Monday, February 11, 2013 6:05 AM

Karl - NO umbrage.....no arguments...  Wink   just wanted to point out those points for modelers who don't know. I know where you come from my friend... you are the the ART!

We all also have to remember that our hobby is an art. As such it is entitle to interpretation. Some of us are realists and others into fantasy.

Rounds Complete!!

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Monday, February 11, 2013 5:48 AM

deattilo,

An excellent post! Thanks for going through your photos and adding these to this post! Nothing like first-hand photo evidence and recollections to add additional perspective!

It was really interesting to hear about how the spare tracks were protected by that film, and to see the nasty wear on the lower hulls! And the "non-standard" paint jobs too---coool!

Thanks for a valuable contribution to this thread! ToastYes

  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: New Port Richey
Posted by deattilio on Sunday, February 10, 2013 5:11 PM

I thumbed through couple of my photo-albums and clicked through several of my folders and found some AAVs to provide images of their wearing.  They faded, stained and chipped without receiving a second look as all the sweat and $$ went to keeping them functioning properly, appearance wasn’t even a factor.  The exterior was usually oil/fuel stained because 15/40 (oil) and JP8 (fuel) does not wipe away from CARC, the larger concern was to make sure none of the oil/fuel got or stayed on the deck – ramp, beach or dirt inland for fear of the repercussions should the EPA or OSHA happen across our path; the kitty-litter dance being a well and oft-practiced jig (oil soak looks like cat litter and you have to rub it into the cement to absorb the oil).

I have become less concerned with my finishes being precisely correct and prefer to make them look right; following more the artistic than authentic path I suppose.

 

This is brand new track- even after sitting for months in the ocean air the track hasn’t rusted yet.  They arrive with a thin layer of protectant that has a slightly tan/gold hue and can be scraped away with a finger nail similar to wax.

 

A couple runs up the beach and allowed to rest on the ramp for couple days and we have a much more familiar sight.

 

Unlike remainder of the AAV (save for UGWS) the RAM/RS road wheels are steel and rust rapidly given the AAV’s operating environment.  The “spokes” on the #1 road wheel are from an excess of anti-seize that was applied to the nuts when the road wheel was installed and the compound had been flung outward while the vehicle was speeding along – this was fairly common when the RAM/RS was first introduced.  You will also notice that almost all the paint has been worn away from all of the oil hubs, very common even with the older suspension.

 

After days in the field and driving along the beach the track still maintains a dull steel finish but the center guide teeth have been shined-up from the constant friction of steel on steel.

 

Once again the suspension will never compete for beauty prizes, and as can be seen the bow takes a lot of punishment scraping and rubbing away the paint.

 

The track shroud is frequently removed and as such rarely do the bolts have paint on them, normally being rusted and the areas around their mounting chips away the paint.  The hull behind the suspension also gets much of the paint chipped and wore away.  The white rims on the road wheels are the primer being exposed from the green CARC being worn away.  The inner rim of the road wheels, where the holes for the hub bolts are located, typically do not get painted from new and almost immediately rust once mounted.  When new though, they are bare steel, same practice was followed on the older suspension except they were aluminum.

 

Extreme examples of disregard for the overall finish, but both of these AAVs had been painted with their EAAK mounted and once the armor was removed the previous camouflage was exposed.  There were quite a few of these mix/match paint jobs on the ramp after OIF I and none received a new paint job until they were sent for rebuild.

 

I included these simply because it is rare to find an AAV in this pose.  This occurred at 29 Palms, while driving down hill on the recently completed cement path in the rain the track slid off the pad just enough to catch the ditch and wind up on her side.  There were no injuries and once righted a couple of the road wheel hubs were replaced and off she went.  This was actually the second vehicle to accomplish this pose within the span of about a week, and both were fairly new and looked no worse for wear after the incidents.

 

 

WIP:
Trying to get my hobby stuff sorted - just moved and still unpacking.

 

"Gator, Green Catskill....Charlie On Time"
 

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Sunday, February 10, 2013 1:07 PM

Ixion

Here is something I have never seen depicted on a model; differential weathering on the paint scheme due to the effects of the tarpaulin cover being placed on the superstructure:

Ixion---yes, I've seen some one model that exact model in a magazine several years ago--I wish I ccould remember where? Also, it may be that wbill76 may have also done somethin like that? I can't remember exactly, but I DO remember seeing it! It's a great picture and reference though; thanks for pposting it! If I can find that model, I'll post a link to it!

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Sunday, February 10, 2013 12:56 PM

Mike.

I appreciate your input; of course, I know that the machines in museums are, in reality, a moderate example at best of what the "real" tank looks like. The thing I liked about the machines in THIS museum is that they are pretty much in the paint and finish that they came in from the field. But I wholeheartedly agree about "looking at vehicles in service" as valuable references.

I don't have the experience that so many on this site have, so I would never make assertions about wear and condition that you and your brothers-in-arms can make with integrity; I speak strictly from the artistic side. Therefore, as admittedly extreme as some of the conditions of some of these photos and examples are, I think that they nonetheless make good references for at least certain modeling possibilities--the ragged wheels as opposed to the pristine example; the non-rusting character of aluminum vehicles like the M113 series and the areas of where they might get chipped, and of course, the running condition of the tracks and wheels. It also doesn't hurt to consider the idea of leaky seals, etc, because my modeling philosophy has always been that the artistic license to show a model in what might be a technically "unrealistic"  condition is the right and domain of the individual artist, in order to convey a sense of use, abuse, or outright defiance in the face of adversity and certain doom---which is why  model so many of the German tanks as well-abused and beat-up. And to be honest, I never really "chip to death" modern vehicles--remember my M48 Patton? There was like, no chipping whatsoever, if I remember? I agree on that point--modern vehicles should be more restrained in many aspects of  weathering and wear! Yes

I didn't mean to resurrect the flogged-and-bloody "Realistic vs Artistic debate" here once again Bang Head...Confused..Whistling...but I guess I had to at least give it a nod as a reason for this thread's relevance, as I realize that some guys would prefer to dismiss it out-of-hand as "unrealistic", and some new guys or new modelers might inadvertently build unnecessary mental strictures on their possible artistic parameters due to the well-intentioned criticism and/or cautionary advice against modeling wear and abuse.

So, to state it clearly---absolutely no umbrage taken, and I thank you for what is an important "check" and perspective on this sometimes-volatile, and very subjective subject! Big Smile We really agree for the most part on just about everything you said. Smile

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by Ixion on Saturday, February 9, 2013 10:47 PM

Here is something I have never seen depicted on a model; differential weathering on the paint scheme due to the effects of the tarpaulin cover being placed on the superstructure:

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Dublin Rep Of Ireland
Posted by terry35 on Saturday, February 9, 2013 10:09 AM

Brilliant thread Karl, very interesting shots.

Terry.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: New Jersey
Posted by redleg12 on Saturday, February 9, 2013 8:36 AM

Karl - Nice pictures and more over looks like fun.

Being a realist I have to totally agree with Rob, then again we are biased based on what we have seen and many years of experience with the 1 to 1. The chipping on the M113 would not exist as seen in your pictures on an operational unit. Once any type of chipping begins it is usually touched up...even in a combat zone. Look at pictures of vehicles in VN, you would never see that level of paint peel. Looking at the seal leak on the M110, if it was that bad of a seal leak would deadline the equipment and would be repaired prior to any other operation.

I understand the artistic side Karl, it just ABSOLUTELY kills me when modelers want to chip US equipment like WWII German Tanks. Chipping is WAY overdone in my opinion as an artistic interpretation.

I say this for those who look in here at the museum items and think some of the pictures are how they would look when in service. Your pictures are GREAT start to research. Love the M4 road wheels...there are great points on the wear there. But always look at photos of the equipment in service if you are trying to be on the scale/realistic side.

Now if you are going totally artistic...have a ball.  Modeling is fun, enjoy

Rounds Complete!!    

"The Moral High Ground....A Great Place to Emplace Artillery."

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Thursday, February 7, 2013 8:20 PM

WOW, that's AMAZINGLY FILTHY!

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by Ixion on Thursday, February 7, 2013 11:29 AM

I thought this was an interesting photo, just about the most weathered artillery piece ever. A 17cm Kanone 18 with what looks like the remains of a dried mud camo job.

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Thursday, February 7, 2013 9:03 AM

I think you're right, Ixion and Tim--I'll have to ask the curator of the museum up in Danville the next time I"m up there. He's pretty knowledgable about details like that, and his sons are certified tank mechanics. If anyone would know, they would, between them.

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: England
Posted by P mitch on Thursday, February 7, 2013 2:38 AM

On the red seals, would it be possible these are modern replacements made from a form of plastic that are now coloured red when orginally they where a completely different matterial?

Just a thought

Phil

"If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: it's all balls." R J Mitchell


  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Philippines
Posted by constructor on Wednesday, February 6, 2013 4:36 PM

Thanks for the pictures Doog. It will come mighty helpful.

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Jefferson City, MO
Posted by iraqiwildman on Wednesday, February 6, 2013 4:16 PM

I think these are just red plastic or rubber seals. They are not painted red, but are manufactured red.

Tim Wilding

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by Ixion on Wednesday, February 6, 2013 3:25 PM

I'm beginning to believe there is some history behind these red grease fittings.

An SdKfz 10 from the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation. Mr Littlefield was not the kind of guy to use "artistic license" while restoring his vehicles.

M.V.T.F. 7.5cm  Pak 40;

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Wednesday, February 6, 2013 10:03 AM

Ixion,

I've noticed that too--and wondered the same thing about the red lubrication points. In fact, even modern day Leopards and Bundeswehr vehicles have that as well--look here: this Leopard 2A4 at Wolfhagen panzer base has red lube points on the wheels.

  • Member since
    March 2004
  • From: Spartanburg, SC
Posted by subfixer on Wednesday, February 6, 2013 9:49 AM

Ah! The plot thickens...  Might have to breakout the single bristle paint brush and some red paint.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by Ixion on Tuesday, February 5, 2013 10:51 PM

With regards to the red painted grease fittings, while I doubt these were S.O.P. during war-time production, many of the restored museum vehicles at Panzermuseum Munster, Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung Koblenz and the Auto and Technology Museum Sinshiem have red painted grease fittings. Now, I know how ridiculous paint schemes can be on restored vehicles the world over, but the Germans seem to have habit of doing this for some reason. The trick here is trying to find this on a unrestored vehicle or finding a vintage color shot to see if there is any historical basis for this practice. Maybe they only do this on the restored "runners" to aid them with maintaining the vehicle, for even the T-34/85 at Munster has red grease fittings, and I seriously doubt the Russians would have done this, they were lucky to have any paint at all.

[Edit] Then there are things like this unrestored 7.5cm leIG 18 at Koblenz;

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Tuesday, February 5, 2013 7:41 AM

Phil,

AWESOME site! Thanks for posting it here!

It's interesting that one of the Panther photos has the caption "Royal Tiger" on it--another mis-identification.

The ones of the Cologne Panther always thrill me as I've been to Cologne and the Dom numerous times.

Again, a very cool site--it'll take me hours to go through the pages!

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