Found this info on a general search today. Pictures taken at the time of knocked out Panthers etc which someone may find useful.

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=173857&start=930

Phil

Thanks for the great photos. I'm building a Sherman and as I usually build aircraft this will really help!

Cool story, Joe! Thanks for that little recollection! My own grandfather's name was "Adolf". I always thought that that was a weird name for an American?  But they we always called him "***"--a name he got after he "saved" a mule in the coal mines which had broken its leg. He was a "mule boy" in the coal mines.

Phil--thanks for that link! WOW, there's a lot of cool photos on your site there! I know where I"m going after I finish this reply!

stikpusher--wow, COOL photos! Nothing like the real thing! Thanks for posting them here, and for your added input! GREAT stuff!

Thanks for everyone adding to this thread! It's really a nice repository of valuable information and perspective!

Rob covered most of the points I would make. Museum vehicles are usually a mediocre reference for the condition of operational vehicles. While these ones are better than many museum pieces that I have seen, they are neglected in that each vehicles does not have a crew performing daily/weekly maintenance on it as an operational AFV in service does. There is usually far less rust on an active duty AFV. While the gouges of the road wheel tires is common, when it gets to the point of 1/4 or more of that being missing, the wheel is replaced as unserviceable.  Sprocket teeth wear will vary by type, as will any center or edge guide teeth. Compare the M113 family where the sprocket tooth goes into a hole in the track shoe vs. the M60 where the sprocket engages the end connectors.

That rubber you are referring to on the M113 drivers hatch is padding for the driver, to reduce the chance of injuries to the driver during operations on rough terrain (it does not eliminate it, I have a nice scar on my chin from REFORGER 84 involving the hatch rim) The seal is on the hatch itself, a circular 1/2" or so rubber gasket near the rim.

This M901 (one of my old tracks) sports a typical filed appearance with the lower surfaces and suspension covered in mud and dust

and this is how we cleaned them at the wash rack using the pioneer tools to get the caked on mud off prior to running them thru the "bird bath"

where they would be washed with high pressure water

this M901 from my old platoon in Germany shows a typical appearance from minimal off road driving. Light mud on the tracks and lower hull, but the rubber track pads exposed from road wear

and this shot shows typical maintenance activity at any halt that will be more than a few minutes during operations....

This Vulcan track shows a typical appearance- mud spattered, but overall well maintined

Doog

Yes the tiger at Bovington is a runner, it get run every week but two or three times a year they let people get really up close and personal, I was standing on the rear deck haveing a good look inside for 5 minutes or so earlier this year. I have something like 200 plus photos from the day.  There is a link in my previous post below

149789.aspx

Happy for anyone to have a look and use them for reference if they like

Phil

This is a little off topic but I'm gonna tie it in with the jerry can. I spent 10 days back in '03 with a Swiss family. The old man kept 3 jerry cans in his car that he'd fill for trips to and from Bavaria to visit relatives. I was a little surprised to see them. Anyway the interesting part of the story is the parents of the woman who invited me over were both refugees from WWII. The mother Adolfina "Fini" was Bavarian and the father Joseph escaped East Prussia with his grandmother in the last winter of the war. He was either 6 or 8 at the time. Their daughter explained to me that back in the day the NS party offered bonuses or tax incentives to people who named their children after party leaders.

Phil--cool shots! Thanks for posting them!! I think that Tiger 131 is a runner, isn't it? That would explain the burnished tracks!

Gamera--that would be great if you could find your photos too! What a great place! I wanted to go to one of those "open days" too, but I think they're putting them off right now because they cost so much money to put on? BUMMER!

the doog

Here's another I found for the WII German guys---this jerry can. I always kinda assumed they were plastic, like modern cans, but they're metal--and they rust.

Now THAT was something I actually knew; as we had one here on the farm that used into the '80's until it did rust out.

Karl: thanks for posting the photos! I've been to the AAF Tank Museum a couple of times on their big open day in the spring. I should visit some time on a slow day, after all they're only a little more than an hours drive for me. I do have some reference photos I took on a CD/DVD somewhere, I'll have to see if I can dig them up.

Below are a couple of photos from my trip to Bovington showing some of what we are talking about.

Below are wheels from a Stug G

Below are the tracks from Tiger 131. I find it interesting that the running tracks look very different from those stored as spares. I also find it strange that we all colour all tracks the same colour as if they are all the same age, which I'm sure would be rare

Below is the bogie from a Sherman where you can see the return roller looks like it had a leak to me

Just to keep the discussion going

Phil

Great photos of a wide range of armor.

I bet the red paint on the old German stuff might be some "Parade" painting done for a show or parade., kind like the Russians and Chinese paint their road wheels white in parades.

My last two builds of a soviet KV and SU-152, I installed the tracks before painting. I actually found it easier to paint and weather them, since I just did the parts that showed. Also these track would be hard to installed later, since the sprocket is locked on the hull by a mud remover thing. That being said, I probably will keep the tracks off until the finally assemby on future builds, if possible. I do like the guide horns to be shiny and this rubber shine on the inside of the tracks where the road wheels hit it.

I do think a lot of weathering on armor is way overdone, but it come down to artist license and what the modeler wants to add. I really like  the chipped, rusty look, but in reality you would never see that in active service.

I too like this thread and the civil discussions.

Thank you for this very informative post and for all of the contributions made.

Lee

novembergray

I wish to god I'd taken, or had known to have taken, better photos of live and dead vehicles when I was in the service

A great discussion though--I hope it continues. The information is great!

P mitch

This reminds me of a dicussion I had with the staff at the Tank museum in Bovington last year. A couple of the guys there are modelers so I asked what they thought about the level of chipping etc we often see on builds. The replies where the same, your not going to get a lot of paint wear in a few months but if you get a leak it can cause a stain which will take a while to wear away.

When you think about this if a piece of armour is only 3 weeks old, say the time it would take to get to the front then your not going to get through paint in that time, but if its 3 years old you could wear through paint then. You then have to ask would armour last for 3 years in combat??

Phil

Probably not, Phil--and if it would, it would be refurbished at some point.

I think that this kind of never-ending discussion always will boil down to the "reality" camp and the"artistic" camp. It seems that it comes up here every so often, and the discussion--while involving different players--always seems to bring up essentially the same points.

If anyone else has pictures or photos to contribute, lay 'em on! Here's another I found for the WII German guys---this jerry can. I always kinda assumed they were plastic, like modern cans, but they're metal--and they rust. Cool.

This reminds me of a dicussion I had with the staff at the Tank museum in Bovington last year. A couple of the guys there are modelers so I asked what they thought about the level of chipping etc we often see on builds. The replies where the same, your not going to get a lot of paint wear in a few months but if you get a leak it can cause a stain which will take a while to wear away.

When you think about this if a piece of armour is only 3 weeks old, say the time it would take to get to the front then your not going to get through paint in that time, but if its 3 years old you could wear through paint then. You then have to ask would armour last for 3 years in combat??

I agree about tracks that we often dont treat them in the right way as they would suffer a lot of use but in some cases you have to remember they use transport tracks on such as the Tiger II, which set would take more wear combat tracks or transport?

I like the thread and hope I've added a little to the discussion

Phil

Remember, a displayed model is just a moment in time, just like a photograph is.

Example:    a picture of Rommel in uniform

                      or in the shower.    

I wish to god I'd taken, or had known to have taken, better photos of live and dead vehicles when I was in the service

Now these are the type of forum discussions we need more of!!  Differing viewpoints on modeling related topics, one based on real life experiences and observatons, the other on artistic representation in regards to armor scale modeling!!  Everyone reading this thread can't help but gain a better understanding of how to realistically weather AFVs.  Kudos to you all and thanks so much for the compelling,educational, insightful and respectful discussion!  

Hey Joe,

A great post as well! Thanks for adding to the discussion, and the information base here! Good points and observations!

One issue I have with modelling is attention to realistic detail. That is one thing that has brought my modelling to a dead halt several times. One thing I do for a living is equipment maintenance with a power washer so I've spent many, many hours with nothing to do but go through the monotonous motions and looking at what is in front of me. Unlike light metal, heavy metal doesn't rust very fast. Also the more you keep your engine and equipment in motion the less you're going to see rust, especially on the underside and the muffler.

For authenticity in guide horn scuffs etc, etc I like the randomness of brushing. Those tracks move from side to side when they're in motion but the motion is kind of repeated each time around by all the minute details affecting it. Chunks of rubber will get gouged out of road wheels because big rocks will get kicked up inside the tracks, but that Sherman must have had some extremely heavy use followed by a long time sitting to look that bad. Most likely it was moved for repainting or something after the rubber had already dry-rotted and that would account for a lot of the deterioration on them, especially the parts that aren't sharply defined. Rubber gets crumbly when it rots.

Leaking wheel cylinders leave axle grease tracks that are spun out from the center by centrifugal force and then dust sticks to it along with chunks of other stuff and it also discolors the paint in other places where its flaked off or whatever. That leak on the T-55 all leaked out while the tank was sitting in one position. When they move it, the moving parts heat up the grease and then they park it and it all leaks out in one direction - down. You can also see that on the M48 Patton where it was moved. The rust spot in the rim was where water sat and rusted it, then they moved it and the seal leaked while the opposite face was down. Seals also deteriorate when a vehicle isn't moved. You can see in one of your photos where the wheel cylinder leaked a lot fast but it didn't really get hot enough to sling it out to the edges.

I'm surprised you don't already drybrush the edges of your tracks because they're always mushed into the sand or the ground. When we drybrush, the bristles simulate that scrubbing action that the ground does or traffic does or branches do or whatever to any surface which is one reason I hesitate to switch to airbrushing.

The inner track thing that was a minor discussion thing the other day is basically steel polished with rubber so.........

So far as the lube points on the Panzer, my guess would be when they were repainted the paint didn't stick and it flaked off Paint won't stick to any surface that has a petroleum based film. That might even be the original primer you see.

I'm not gonna say anything else except hardly any of our 113 variants had skirts. I think the FISTV we had in Kuwait had the front attachment but even most of those had long since been removed. Thanks for helping me become even more overwhelmed than I already was. I might just stick with making mine dusty and muddy  Thanks for helping me kill an hour.

After reading back through this I also agree with Bronco and Rob

Wow,thanks for some really great reference shots

Bronto, and Rob,

GREAT posts---thank you for weighing in! That's knowledgeable perspective from guys who have first-person experience, and that's priceless.

From a strictly-realistic point of view, I have no counter arguments. From an artistic viewpoint however, the artist in me says "At some point, any or all of those situations could potentially develop in the field--scratches, leaks, etc. Until they get repaired--perhaps a matter of hours?--they would "exist" in "reality".

From a strictly-artistic point of view, the inclusion of leaks, scratches, wear, etc, is akin to the fake "scars" that Hollywood puts on its heroes in movies like "Rambo" and such--they confer the idea that "This guy is tough; he can take it and keep going; he can't be stopped even though he's beat up" Though there will always be that argument about what is "too much" or "unrealistic", as an artistic choice, it appeals to me.

The input from you both gives reason to pause for consideration of "how much is too much" when beginning the weathering process. Cool beans!

I agree with Bronto. For instance, that M60 is really rough. When I was in an M60A3 platoon, our tanks were fully repainted several times a year. When I was on M1A1 and M1A2 tanks with the 1st Cav, they were repainted so frequently I truly couldn't keep track throughout the course of a year.

Likewise with the M110 road wheel; that leakage is considered a Class 1 leak. The military classifies leaks as Class 1, 2 or 3. Class 1 is the presence of moisture and it would be noted on the daily maintenance log (DA Form 2404) and would be monitored and repaired at the next service or probably more quickly if it developed into a Class 2 leak.

A Class 2 leak is when the fluid begins to form a drop when the vehicle sits for any length of time. That would be repaired as soon as possible, like at the next maintenance halt or when it got back to the motor pool.

A Class 3 leak is basically dripping or spewing of the fluids. It would be remedied immediately if possible.

The dinged up road wheels could be in multiple stages of disrepair. The rear ones tended to get more cracks than the front ones because of the rubbing of the center guides created vibrations in the metal that eventually would cause the separation of the rubber from the metal. A forward road wheel probably wasn't replaced as often as the rear so it would appear more beat up and "chunked" than the rear ones.

In active duty service, a tank probably had its track replaced annually. We used to road march along the autobahn from Grafenwohr to Hohenfels (a 3 hour tour, a 3 hour tour). It took its toll on the tracks and road wheels just because of the heat and vibrations. A National Guard tank of the same make may sit for years without moving more than a mile. We also tracked vehicle usage by miles AND hours. The engines ran constantly without the vehicles moving during gunnery, alerts, maintenance, etc.

The National Guard also kept a couple of tanks at their armory that stayed there. When they went on their two week annual training, they drew vehicles from a motor pool (MATES site or USAR ECS site) at whatever fort or camp they went to. Since they are using "rent-a-tanks", they don't treat them as well as they would vehicles the crew was permanently assigned to.

Much like the photos I took when I ran the maintenance school at Fort Devens, the details are good, but don't look too much into the weathering. My vehicles sat until needed for a class. Other than the recovery vehicles, the tactical vehicles didn't have a lot of operational wear and tear from being in the field or having men live on them. They did have a lot of wear from having engines removed, components replaced, and sitting on concrete in the sun, rain, snow and ice.

The pictures are very useful for general details.  I wouldn't, however, use them for weathering a model that is of an in-service vehicle.  The fading, chipping, staining, etc. show is the result of how many years of sitting and wear?  Vehicles during service are touched-up, cleaned, and in general in better condition than the ones shown.  

The red painted parts are not from German service.

Great pics!  Thanks for posting.

Mike

Great observations doog.  I too sand all the wheels straight away.  But a clean(ish) wheel with the seams intact would allude to a recent replacement.

On other thing, unless I missed in your text, is rolled steel surfaces, casting texture and torch marks on the edges of cut plates.  I have recently started doing the former and have been doing the later.   I'll be stepping up the rolled steel on the KT i am about to start. And there isn't a tank model yet, that I've built anyway, that does not need some (read that a crap load) welds.

Fellow-Doog!: Thanks for looking in! I don't believe that the Sherman wheels are painted over though; however, if you looked at many of the M60/M48 chassis vehicles the wheels DO have a lot of overspray on them. The owner even did point that out!

Tony--true, true, about that muffler. Keep in mind though, that that M44 SP Howitzer wouldn't have had the usage that, say, an M48 or M60 MBT might've had. On the card in front of the vehicle, it says that that particular vehicle had only 126 miles on the odometer, and was only used for testing. So, it might not be as beat-up as some.

Ernest-- One of the things that I genuinely love about this museum is the fact that almost every vehicle is exhibited with accurate on-vehicle tools and fittings intact, and the paint schemes are, for the most part, original. It's rare to see so many well-preserved vehicles SO well-preserved! And all stored indoors too, so they're not rusting out! Glad that you liked the post!

You too, Winetanker!

Thanks Karl...

Lot's of good info here...

Absolutley fantastic photos Karl and a great idea posting them with the intention of pointing out the wear, tear, damage, rust and general weathering AFVs of all types are subject to!  Its very hard to see these in archival photos and a lot of preserved vehicles in museums have been painted over and over, covering up the use and abuse.  Thanks for posting them!!

I noticed the muffler doesn't have that heavy rust scale a lot of people coat their models with.

Nice collect of photo Karl,Thanks

Tony lee

Nice!

I love the Sherman HVSS wheels.! That's one easy way to remove the mold seam! I'd also point out that the whole wheel is painted. Obviously masking wasn't the highest of priorities.