Pantherturm In Berlin Question

I'm sorry but I see no evidence that any of these pics is anything besides the purpose-built Pantherturm.  I see no features of Panther tank hulls -- only the smooth boxes that were typical of the Pantherturms.  Can you point out to me distinct Panther hull features?

I agree with Roy.  These are not buried Panther tanks.  The turrets are mounted on purpose built steel boxes.

In the last picture,  there appears to be the tow cable thingy in the lower left bottom.  All the engine deck vents seem to be plated over.  The feature I'm referring to is the two small vertical posts with a horizontal latch over them.  This was a feature of the Panther ausf G.  I also get an impression of the hull side, mostly on the right, but there is so much debris over it I can't be sure.  It could still be the box, I really am not sure.  Not really important.  Where is my father-in law in those pics when I really need him.  Well he doesn't like to talk about the "bad times" anyway.

Doug

Roy,

Thanks for your response.

However keep in mind my post was a request for clarity and information to a conundrum nothing more. So ,

let me clarify. The pics. I posted originate from various sites and blogs, of which the authors / contributors stated they were pics. of derelict buried panthers a minority of participants said otherwise.

This led to my original inquiry as posted above.

Again thanks for your input.

I agree with the other guys, nothing there except possably the last one, looks like a Panther hull. The first one seems to be the turret of a Panther, judging by the cupola. The second one seems to be the turret purpose built for these instalations.

Doug, i agree that feature bottom left does lok like the holder for the tow cable. But its welded directly to that piece of metal and those no sign of plates going over lourves. And that feature on the right looks like a periscope.

My thinking is that its an unfinished Panther hull thats been plated over. That feature rear right could be an access hatch, with the thing your on about being a handle.

Sorry,

I posted a duplicate pic. ,this is the opposite side to the second pic.

Here's a pic of a whole panther being prepared to be used as a panteherturm.  If you look at the handles in the rear engine deck area  they seem similar to the ones in the first pic .  that  I posted.

Ability to post pics not going well.  This is the pic.

Very cool post, and great photos. However, in my opinion, you're over-thinking the matter.

If you want to do a diorama of a Panther-turm in Berlin, who's to say that any ONE photo is "more correct" than the other? Who's to say that any TWO photos are "contradictory"? You seem to CLEARLY have shots of both the typical "box" under the turret, and yet clear evidence of a Panther being "buried".

I have come to the conclusion---and this after looking at probably thousands of reference photos of various German armored vehicles taken during WWII---that there were definitely so may variations and degrees of difference between any group of vehicles in a specific category that almost ANYTHING WITHIN REASON is possible to model or portray. Paint schemes, small details like tool placements, accessories, modifications, etc. Many times when someone says "this is how it was", there pops up a photo of a "one-off" or a previously-unseen version that shatters the conventional wisdom. ESPECIALLY in the case of late-war, when everything and anything that could be thrown into the cauldron or jimmied-up from parts was possible to be seen.

If you model a Pantherturm, you have, in my estimation, a wide variety of possible scenarios and options, from boxes to buried panthers, from "D" turrets to late G's. If someone says "Oh, they didn't use THAT!", I think you can ask with a degree of integrity "Were you there?".  ;)

Hmmm.... given how this old Panther hull was so radically altered, I can switch my vote about the turret in your fourth pic.  Especially given what appears to be sloped hull side armor at the right lower edge of the pic.