Dragon 1/35th Jagdpanther WiP

Thanks doog. I did think it looked much better, just wanted to see what other thought.

The stamp pattern I have used before does work quite well, and I do think the waffle pattern stamp will also work. But clearly this one is a no go. I tried it twice, so they can't say I didn't give it a go. There is a fourth pattern with quite large squares within the square of the stamp, no idea what that's for.

But its all a learning process right, and I will know next time. I'll get the rest of the zimm done tonight, its only really the other side and front I need to do. Will get some proper pics up later in the weekend as I have been working on the magic track and really impressed with that.

Looks good,  Bish.

I've read on another forum that the pattern you are replicating is actually the undercoat roughened up. The top layer was suppose to go on the following day with a proper pattern, but many vehicles left the factory without the finished layer?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1209024588

regards,

Jack

Bish, THAT is the ticket, man---whatever you're doing there, keep doing it. That looks entirely correct, no matter how you got it.

Those stamps are a mystery to me. I see what you mean about the pattern in them. I just don't know of any actual pattern in zimmerit that could be correctly or convincingly portrayed by that method? I've seen the "Waffle iron" stamps, and they are indeed a "negative" of what you have there. How strange, a real mystery..

Sorry for the cluttered background, but I just wanted to get a quick pic. I started to remove the zimm straight after my last post. But rather than remove it all, I thought I would take off the pattern and try scoring in the dry putty. Took me about 10 mins, but wanted to see what you think before I did the rest.

Barrett, to the best of my knowledge, all Zimm was factory applied. But as Karl says, only StuG's had a pattern that was stamped. The problem I am having is not the pattern I am trying to replicate but the tool I am using which creates the impression of a stamped pattern. I do try and replicate an actual vehicle but within reason. I think tying to replicate the exact zimm down to the last detail would drive anyone mad. But even though the second attempt looks better, I am still not happy.

Karl, you know I don't mind any input. But I can honestly say that the pattern I have used is not the StuG patterm. I know it looks like it because of the prominent marks left by the edges of the stamp and that's what leaves that square block impression. The small squares are not recessed as they are on the StuG pattern. If you look at the stamp and then think of it as a negative, you can see what I mean.

 The problem with the stamp is that it leaves to regular a pattern along with the prominent edges. Overall I am not very happy with this stamp. I have been thinking about re applying the putty and scoring that with a knife rather than the plastic.

And thanks again for the input. it is always appreciated.

Bish, please do not use "an exacto blade to scratch vertical and horizontal lines into your body" as the Doog suggests. It will hurt a lot and do nothing for your model. :-)

I'm wondering if part of the confusion comes from where the zim was applied. For example, if applied in the field, it might have been done using a knife to carve the indented lines like Doog's model and some of the pics we have seen. If applied in the factory, it might have been done with some kind of stamp like in some of the other pics. Maybe even different factories had different methods of application. So, you may be better off choosing a historical model and replicating that pattern rather than trying to produce a universal example. For me, though, trying to create a replica of one actual vehicle would drive me crazy. I would find it impossible to actually get it to look like the original. I'd simply say I'm reproducing the theme and be done with it.

Doog, so that's your work in 1984, eh? Looks about like what I do now, lol. So, if it wouldn't divulge some secret of the trade, can you tell us how much you sold that model for?

Bish, I think you're not going to be happy with this comment, but in keeping with my honesty in critiquing (which always gets me in trouble) I have to say: the method and style of zimmerit you're using is wrong for Jagdpanthers. You're using a stamped pattern which was was an ALKETT  exclusive, used ONLY on Stug IIIs.

Now, you can get a "square block" appearance on your model, but the Jagdpanther zimmerit pattern is NOT from stamping but from dragging the trowel through the paste, creating squares. If you notice, not all squares are equidistant or equal-sized. This is because it was not done with a stamp, but with a dragged trowel.

I know it sucks that you've already gone in for a second coat, but if you want to be more correct in your zimmerit, I would honestly suggest just roughing up the plastic with glue and then using an exacto blade to scratch vertical and horizontal lines into your body.

I did this Academy 1/25 Jagdpanther way back in 1984 or so in this manner. Of course, I was a younger modeler then, and wasn't as precise as I would be now. I also screwed up in that a Late models JP wouldn't have had this zimmerit. But you can see what it would look like. I just sold this model on eBay.

Good Bish, we'll keep following.

Terry, ye, I know what you mean there, and I think that's what's causing the problem with this one. Using the stamp for the most common pattern, I have not had this problem, but with this one it has caused issues. But with a softer touch when applying the stamp and thinner Milliput, it has come out much better.

Bish I have a couple sets of those same stamps, I picked them up because theres not many out there covering the different patterns. They look like they were made in a hurry of a softer metal. I wish the edges were sharper, that would speed up the process and give cleaner lines.

Yup, definitely not waffle pattern, but a cross-hatch? I agree that stugs only had the waffle pattern. I'm pretty sure that Panthers and Jagdpanthers had the cross-hatch pattern.

Thanks Tojo. Brave or mad, not sure which.

Well, I took the plunge and have re done the right side. Took about 3 attempts stamping and smoothing, but now I don't have the over laps and such pronounced ridges it looks a lot better. I have removed the putty from the left but will add the fresh coat tomorrow. I don't think my big thumb print in the zimm will quite be to scale.

Nice job on the zimm Bish,you are a braver man then me.MT's will lay in nice on this one also.

Johan, thanks, and ye, that is the pattern I am going for.

Bronto, I have been looking at it closer since reading what you and Karl have said and I think I can see the problem. As I mentioned earlier, this is the first time I have use this pattern of the stamp, and I don't think I am being precise enough. I have gone over some areas where the pattern didn't come out right and the edges of the stamp have caused larger lines which give the impression of the waffle pattern. There are also some over laps so the pattern is not as regular as it should be.

I think before I go much further, I will remove the zimm from the sides and front and try again, this time being more consistent in how I apply the stamp. If that don't work, then before its dry I can smooth it over and try something else. I think it might help if I can get the putty thinner as well, it would leave such deep impressions.

Thanks for the input guess, it is very much appreciated.

Hi Bish,
This looks mighty interesting!
Her is a picture of the example on display in the London IWM.





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Good luck with your build :)

Very Best Regards
Johan

Your description of the patterns is correct.  Maybe I'm seeing what you are applying wrong.

Bronto, if I understand it right, on the StuG's waffle pattern, it was the squares that were recessed with the lines between being raised. Like this one.

Where as on the Jagdpanther's square pattern, its the lines that are recessed, like this.

If that's right, then maybe its not coming across in the pics as the lines between the squares are recessed like the latter pic. There is a different stamp for the  pattern in the first pic. Or have I misunderstood.

There is some distortion with using the stamps which create an ridge each time its put into the putty and I need to sand these away a touch.

The zimmerit pattern in the picture you posted isn't the waffle pattern you are doing.  As Doog pointed out this was only used on Stug III's.   The picture shows closely spaced lines creating a "square" pattern.  With all the work you are puttig into this it would be a shame to keep the wrong zimmerit pattern on it.

No, those Fruls ain't cheap. I have promised myself that I will only get Fruils to replace the rubber band tracks. I have about 30 sets ready to use as it is, so replacing all the other kit tracks with them would just be going to far, as much as I like using them.

Thanks, I am hoping so. My biggest concern isn't the model but the base. I am planning on my first attempt at making my own trees, which should be interesting.

Just can't keep putting $45 tracks on all these. This will be a cool build.

Thanks terry. But on this one I am going with the magic tracks. Not used those before so should be fun.

Karl, from looking at all the pics, it does look like the style I have used, I do have some pretty good close up pics and it looks as if the pattern was made by just 'cutting' horizontal and vertical lines into the zimm. This pic is in the panzer Tracts book and is one of those I used, but I did find it online.

By checker box style, is that the pattern on the Saumer Jagdpanther. 

Love to see this one going. Nice choice Bish, looks like a real candidate for a set of Fruils. The track just lays in there so nice. Love the old school Zim and the PE looks great.  

Terry

Bish, is this an actual zimm pattern used on Jagdpanthers? I'm honestly curious, because you seem like you're putting a lot of research into this model, which is cool, but as far as I knew, this "waffle iron" pattern was only on Alkett (?) StuGs? I thought all Jagdpanthers had the vertical ridge style? Check that--I meant the "checkered box" style?

Well after that intro I had hoped to have an up date sooner, but wanted to get the zimm done first. But I finally have something to report. I am using Milliput white and to get the pattern I have a set of metal stamps from Airwaves I got years ago. The set comes with 4 pattern with ach pattern having 3 stamps. So far I have only used the most common zimm pattern I am sure many are familiar with. But this one gived me a chance to use a different one. These are the stamps

  started out with the front glacis plate. as I mengtione earlier,  I am building a vehicle of the 654. s Jag pz Abt. This unit made some changes to their vehicles when they first arrived. One was to remove one of the drivers periscopes and put a metal plate over the hole. The Voyager PE set I am using included that plate.

 Another change was to move most of the tools from the sides to the rear of the hull. From what I can see on the photo's I could fine, this left bare patches with no Zimm. So I pencilled those areas in before adding the putty

 I then add the putty and smooth it out. I find it works better when wet, but not to wet. Smoothing it out is easier if wearing a latex glove as a bare figure tends to grip on the putty

After I added this, I realised it would be better to add the PE track guards and side pieces before doing all the zimm

 Then did the other side to complete the upper hull

I only do one surface of each piece at a time and then leave 24 hours to drive, this avoids putting a thumb into wet zimmed putty. So the upper hull was done over 3 nights.

 Finally it I did the rear of the hull and the lower part of the front. Here you can see it half way through stamping the pattern

 And on the rear I have done some of the zimm and started on the PE. I'll add the rest of the zimm later as I can only surmise that some would have been removed to weld on tool brackets.  Both the kit and the PE set included the rear tool box brackets that were fitted to later vehicles. I added these and then realised they were wrong for this one, which should have brackets secured to the top of the hull and coming over the rear deck. Luckily I have some plastic one of these in the spares box, so removed the PE ones

 Many of the features on this kit are for vehicles produced after July 44, which, for those interested in those sorts of things, is not right for this vehicle. So I am double checking everything.

And finally, the lower hull with the suspension added

And that's your lot for now. All comments welcome as always. 

Thanks Eric, no, we haven't seen many of these.

This should be cool. Haven't seen many here lately. Good luck on the zim friend.

Karl, no, no resin in this one, just a small PE fret. I have the Dragon late kit as well, but I don't think there is any resin in there.

Ye Bill, where you been hiding.

Tojo, I add my own with Milliput white. I have done a pre Zimmed kit, which I liked, but this is my preferred method. I did the front last night and will get onto one of the sides tonight, I try not to do to much at once for fear of sticking a big thumb into wet zimm while handling.

GM 24th, now that must have been a site. This is actually my first ever Jagdpanther, I know, shocking isn't it. And about bloody time I built one.

Cool. I was actually thinking of doing a mid-late one next.

Is this the kit with the extra resin parts?