Tiger I.. Panther G.. or Pzkpfw IV Ausf H ??

I say type whatever you need to and not worr about the length! Knowledge is useless if not shared with others and I for one enjoyed the breakdown of your technique very much for its insight in how others tackle a problem.

Sorry, Kenneth, I do get verbose at times. I'll try to watch it.

Sounds like a plan man.. Welcome to the forum.

Bill, wow.... You type a lot... Good job explaining a difficult subject though... Maybe you should write out a pamphlet and mail it... It would certainly be quicker than typing that out...

QUOTE: Originally posted by tigerman QUOTE: Originally posted by panther18 Build the TIGER.. Build the TIGER.. Build the TIGER.. Build the TIGER.. ;) Isn't that kind of funny, Panther18 says build the Tiger, and I Tigerman recommend the Panther. Okay, not everyone got a chuckle out of that. Sorry

I actually thought it was pretty funny. All that would be needed to cap it off would be for ShermanFreak to suggest skipping the German stuff and build a T-34 instead!

Will,

The drive sprocket is USUALLY at the front of the tank, one on each side, of course, connected to the transmission. It has teeth on it and, again usually, is a bigger than the road wheels and mounted higher on the hull. The idler wheel is the last wheel, again usually bigger and mounted higher, and USUALLY has no teeth. Note that there are exceptions. There are a few tanks that have the toothed sprocket at the rear and the smooth idler at the front. And another few that have teeth on both the drive sprocket and the idler wheel.

The road wheels are the mid sized wheels that set "on the ground". Actually, of course, they sit on the track!! lol

The return wheels are the ones mounted high that the track sits on when moving from the front sprocket to the rear idler wheel.

Another exception for you is that on many of the German tanks, i.e. the Tiger and the Panther, their are large wheels that serve as both the road and return wheels. Take a look at my Pz II, below, and you'ss see all 4 types of wheels.

Any more questions, be sure to ask.

Have a great day;

One other tip in terms of "sag" that I didn't mention...you can build in an extra link or two and then once you've got the track on the wheels, use the end of a brush to depress the track around the return rollers to give the track that "heavy" look. Don't push too hard of course or the links may separate, but if you have a bit of slack in the track as a whole, it can make for a very convincing look. Plus it's easier to remove a link on the end of the track for connection as opposed to trying to add one in from my experience.

Be sure to tell us about your experience and of course, ask any questions, if you run into problems!

Good sound advice. I will make 20 link runs and wrap them around the sprocket wheel and across the top towards the idler and so on. Sometimes it works and other times they break apart. I just need to let them cure a bit sometimes before attaching. I also paint my links on the sprue and cut them like wbill.

you will be able to do it, Audiophile!
the first tank i completed (as opposed to started) was Tamiya's Panther G w/ Eduard PE.
convinced that i could handle that (ho, ho) i also got the Tamiya indy link set
for the G. (i figured if i could not do it, the vinyl set was still in the box!)

i used an appoach much like wipw's, and it went pretty well.
the only problem i ran into was that i was about 1/2 of a link short on one side.
(must have glued those links tighter together or something)
i tied the gap shut w/ fishing line and hid the gap w/ a glob of 'mud'.
i suppose if i were to do it again, i would find a better fix,
but it is pretty well hidden.

as you work w/ the runs of links, check against the model now and again,
so that you end up w/ runs that are close to what you need.

a plus w/ the liquid cements is that you can use it to unglue as well
w/ a few judiciously placed drops.
just don't get carried away and dissolve the link!

good luck and keep us posted!

Wow, guys, those are very detailed tips. How can I thank you? I'm also sure I'll come up with personalized ways of doing things as far as track assembly goes, but it's people like you who make it a much easier problem to tackle. I'm not familiar with tank terminology, so when I read about how many links should go between this wheel and that wheel I am a little bit at a loss, but again, I'm sure it will come to me.

I'm looking forward to my first Tiger I, and that project should get me familiar with basic tank mechanics and terminology, so it will make my oh-so-laborious Panther G with indy tracks a not-so-laborious project alongside the help which has been provided. Thanks so much!


lol -- Bring on the indies!

I use a set of fine sprue nippers and there is very little post build cleanup required depending on how the links were attached to the sprues (Dragon, thankfully, uses 2 point attachments on the sides generally).

I do the same thing as far as drybrushing but only after the links are on the kit...it saves a lot of drybrushing on areas that aren't visible on fixed tracks. Some people also use the pencil method but I've found that the washes I use are thin enough and after a little weathering, the contrast is ideal and requires very little extra work.

I too find one of the best things about this forum is seeing how other people have developed their different techniques! It shows both similarity in dealing with particular problems and also wide variances. One thing I've always found is that no one way works for everyone but there are a lot of options available for testing/experimentation.

Thanks, Bill. Interesting how you do it. I like the idea of "randomizing" the links. I'd like to try that, but I really don't want to have to "de-paint" all the attachment points. I wish I could think of a way to combine the two methods! That's one of the best things about these forums is seeing how others do things.

And one thing I forgot on my links is that I do a final drybrush of steel and or silver on the high points after the rust washes have dried. Duhhhh!

Lots of detail there wipw and an interesting peek into how others do indy tracks.

I do almost the reverse. All of the painting (basecoat of steel and follow on washes of rust and thinned gunmetal in alternating coats as needed) I do is while the links are still attached to the sprue. This has tow interesting effects I've found. 1) The painting process is easier being still attached to the sprue and 2) the tracks when assembled will have a varied/random pattern to them because of how I actually do the assembly. After painting, I will cut all the pieces from the sprue and clean them up as needed and they go into a small glass bowl. I then shake up the bowl and pull out 5 links at a time for the sections. As I mentioned above, the tracks are built in a linear strip and the random steel/wear/rust patterns are always unique. The tracks are usually the very last item I put on as a personal preference just before the overall weathering is applied.

Everyone devleops their own techniques and yours sounds highly developed from experience and practice! Your jig method in particular is something I will have to look into.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Audiophile121 While on the subject of indy tracks ... do they need to be assembled into the shape of the track circle (well, more of a trapezoid, I guess)? Or do you just assemble them one at a time in a flat line on the workbench, and then link one end to the other when you're done, or what ... how is that done? Track construction is the aspect of tank modeling that is really frightening me as I prepare for my first tank, and I want to go into it with all the knowledge I can get on the subject of tracks as I can possibly acquire... Guess it'd be smart to pull out my 1/35 mokey wrench and get down to the nitty-gritty, eh? lol.

wbill got his much shorter post in before I got mine done. Sorry for the duplication. (It takes a looong time to write a novel like I did!! lol)


okay, I was waiting for this one. Where to start?? lol

The first thing you will have to do is look at the links and decide on a couple of things. Are you going to fill the ejector pin marks. Many modelers do, many don't. Watch out for some of them being "outties". They will definately need to be cut off. I've filled them on a few links, and don't consider it worth the trouble. Then you will have to decide if you want to paint the links on the sprues then build or the other way around. With German tracks, I prefer to build in sections first (more later), then paint, then assemble the sections and touch up. If you paint first, you will either be doing a lot of cleaning off the paint to get a good glue joint or be assembling with superglue.

Make some sort of jig to keep the track runs straight. I got a thick (about .060, I think) piece of Evergreen styrene and a length of Plastruct 1/4-3/8" Plastruct angle. Then I set a metal straight edge on the base and glued the angle to it. I used Ambroid Plastic Weld, as regular plastic cement doesn't work too well with the ABS the angle is made from. Made sure the angle goes down straight and let it cure completely.
You can just build against a straight edge, if you want. But it's nice to be able to pick up the jig with the track lengths on it and move it aside while the cement is setting up. (Use metal, not a plastic ruler!)

Once you've painted or decided to go the other way, clip the links from the sprue and clean them up. I do about 10-15 at a time, or make sure I've got something to keep all the seperate links in.

(I'm going to assume you are going to paint after assembly for the rest of this.

I use Tamiya Extra Thin Cement (Green cap). Others have used Testors liquid cement, but it doesn't work as well for me.

Cement 5 to 10 links together and lay them on the jig, making sure the links are tight together, straight against the angle or straight edge, and laying flat. Put together other sets of 5-10 as you have room and time for. Make sure the end link doesn't "turn down". I've had to place an unglued link temporarily at the end of the runs on some of my tracks to make sure this doesn't happen.

After they've set up for a while, start cementing the lengths together. Make a run that goes from about 3 link widths behind the middle of the front road wheel axle (not the drive sprocket axle) to the middle of the rear drive wheel axle (not the idler wheel axle). Again, make sure everything stays inline and flat. Let this run cure completely. (In other words, this length should be about 3 links short of going from the middle of the first road wheel to the middle of the rear road wheel.

You will need a some short lengths to rise from the ground run under the wheels to the drive sprockets and idler wheels. I've found that it's about 5 links for most tanks. Let these set up completely, too. You will have to get the the wheels and sprockets on to tell for sure. Do not glue the sprockets on. It is much easier to put the tracks on if the sprockets turn. The tracks will hold the sprockets on when everything is finished. The same holds true for the idler wheels, if they have teeth on them.

Glue up another set of about 5 links. These will go around one of the sprockets. Let them sit for about 5 minutes, or so. Then, form it around the sprocket making sure the teeth fit in the holes. Let this set up completely. On occasion, I've used a rubber band to hold them tight on the sprocket. You want enough links to go about 1/3 of the way around the sprocket. You can hold the sprocket up to the tank and see if the length is about right. You want to have one end in a straight line with the first road wheel and the other end setting about at the top of the sprocket. You'll get the idea.

Make up one of these for each sprocket and idler wheel.



Cement a single link to the idler end of the bottom run, then one of the short lengths. Lay this under the road wheels and place the individual link right behind the last road wheel. Angle the short section up to the back of the idler. Add links as necessary, cement the section for the idler to it and place that around the idler. Now you should have a length of track that goes from under the first road wheel to the last road wheel, then up to the idler and around it. Cement the sprocket length to another of the short lengths. Place the sprocket in place on the tank and angle the short length so it goes down to the front of the front road wheel. Let all of this completely set up.

Now for the trickey part. Start cementing together length for the top run. This one all needs to be done in one sitting. You don't want the length to get too hard. Make a run long enough to go from the one on top of the sprocket to the one on top of the idler. Once you've got it long enough, let it sit for about 5-15 minutes. You want the links to hold together, but still be flexible. Slip the front link of this length under the link on top of the sprocket (don't glue it!). Holding it there, push the rest of the length down on the road wheels to achieve the amount of sag you want. Check the length to the idler. Add links to the idler end, if needed. You will be able to rock the sprocket back and forth a little to adjust this a little, if needed. Once you can get the top length to fit between the sprocket and idler lengths (again, do not glue it to the link on top of the idler) with the sag you desire, let it harden up completely. One way I've used to keep the say they way I want it is to take some pipe cleaners and bend them to fit between the sponson (lower hull side) and the top of the track. You should have a complete run except for 3 to 5 links at the bottom, front of the run.

Once everything has completely cured, carefully take all the links back off the tank (this is why you didn't glue the top run to the idler or sprocket runs).

Paint the runs and a few extra links as you desire. I paint mine flat black to start with and let that set at least over night. Then, I use Model Master Steel and dry brush the links, inside and outside. After that dries, i wash the tracks 2 - 4 times with a mixture of Humbrol #73 and burnt umber oil paint. (It would be best to either use acrylic for the black and enamels for the dry brushing and washes, or the other way around. Using all enamels strips off a lot of the black.) Others out here do all different kinds of painting methods for their tracks and I'm sure they'll let you know their favorite way.

Once they look the way you want them and the paint is dry, clean the paint off the attachment points (if you want to use CA glue on these last few attachments, you don't have to do this, but you'll get a stronger joint even with CA if you do). Place the track lengths back on the tank and cement them together. Use the individual links to fill in the bottom run. The reason for leaving these links off before is that you may need to slightly adjust their position. You can CA the runs to the road wheels, if you desire.

Well, that's about a chapter and a half on how I do them. If you get a set of after market, working links the method is somewhat different.

Sorry to be so long, but it's not an easy process to describe. You'll come up with your own modifications to the process that work better for you as you go along.

Good luck.

Audiophile,

My usual method is to assemble them in sections of about 5 links and then attach the sections to each other in a straight line using a meter/yard stick as a straightedge. Once the track is assembled, I let it set for a about 10-15 minutes to allow the later sections to set up a little but still be flexible and then fit the tracks around the running gear. Each set is a little bit different so the first track set I keep close tabs on the number of links required and if necessary add in a couple more if it comes out too short. When I do the second track, I know exactly how many links I need and it makes it smoother.

Unless I'm also building the second track right after the first one, I will build a short section out of the spare links just big enough to support a couple of wheels in the middle on the other side so that the finished track cures up in a mostly level position.

Indy links can seem daunting but once you get your hands dirty it's really not that difficult. A little careful planning up front (I always leave the drive sprockets loose to allow the track to "feed" onto the running gear and secure them when done) with painting and assembly and you won't go wrong.

Your list/plan looks good to me.

QUOTE: Originally posted by zokissima *snip* Personally, the Tiger is the crowning piece of German armor, and as such is a key item to have in your collection. *snip*

You tryin' to pick a fight?

While on the subject of indy tracks ... do they need to be assembled into the shape of the track circle (well, more of a trapezoid, I guess)? Or do you just assemble them one at a time in a flat line on the workbench, and then link one end to the other when you're done, or what ... how is that done? Track construction is the aspect of tank modeling that is really frightening me as I prepare for my first tank, and I want to go into it with all the knowledge I can get on the subject of tracks as I can possibly acquire...

Guess it'd be smart to pull out my 1/35 mokey wrench and get down to the nitty-gritty, eh? lol.

Go with what looks meanest. Tiger Tiger Tiger

Bills' correct. It's just time consuming work. Some modelers just spray the base over the rubber and then weather heavily with mud and whatnot. I boringly spray the base, then do the rubber with a brush. That is the admitted slow way. Like Bill said, you can use a circle template to mask the rim while you spray the rubber. I haven't tried that. Another way which several members swear by is the Sharpie pen method. So instead of painting, you're using the Sharpie like a brush. So to save time I bought the Tiger I Late, plus I got it at a great price. The Tamiya Tiger I Late has always been my personal favorite build, it went together without a hitch. The indy tracks were clean and easy to piece. Highly recommended.

Painting the rubber isn't the problem in general...it's all those interleaved road wheels on the Tiger suspension that make it a challenge...the wheel rims are very narrow and it's very easy to mess it up if you paint by hand. Drybrushing or using a circle template can help prevent these problems, but it's still a challenge. The Tiger 1 Late had all steel wheels so voila! no problem to deal with. Sooner or later you have to break down and do it though...just look at tigerman's Panther in his sig, it has rubber wheels and it's suspension is nearly as complex as a Tiger I Early-Mid.

QUOTE: Originally posted by tigerman Sounds like a nice list indeed. I wouldn't mind building the Tiger I Mid. Just all those wheels that have rubber to paint-Yuck! Other than that, I'd be all over it. That's the main reason I built the Tiger Late.

I do not know these kinds of details .. rubber on the mid and not on the late, things like that. What makes having to paint rubber such a repulsive thing to have to do?
What aspects of the Tiger I late kit did you enjoy while building it?

how can you go wrong with any of those kits , heck buy them all , like he rest of us do !

As long as you are doing armor..sound like a good plan to me. LOL.

Sounds like a nice list indeed. I wouldn't mind building the Tiger I Mid. Just all those wheels that have rubber to paint-Yuck! Other than that, I'd be all over it. That's the main reason I built the Tiger Late.

Sounds like a good plan to me! I personally prefer kits with indy links over the rubber band type because of the increased realism they usually offer and I like the greater intricacy/time they take to put together. German indy tracks are much easier to assemble and the 1/35 sizes used on the Panther and Tiger, won't present much problem at all.

Still waiting to see what the indy links going to be like for the Kettenkrad w/Pupchen kit I ordered by comparison though...

The Final Solution has been reached!
Here's what I'll do --

(1) Build the Tamiya Tiger I Early. Sounds like it's a pretty straightforward kit, so this should give me a good introduction into the world of tank modeling without confronting "indy" tracks. And it's a TIGER!! It should make a nice kit and a cool decoration with my other models.

(2) Build the Dragon Panther G Late. Having done the Tiger by then, I think I'll be able to make a really nice paint job on the hull and what not, and will also have a good learning experience with the tracks ... let's just hope I can retain my sanity through that.

(3) Build the Tamiya Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. H. (Unless there's a better kit out there just done by a different manufacturer - is there?) Having put myself through painting and tricky construction lessons for tank modeling, it should be a fun kit without challenge to the degree of discouragement.

(4) Build my dream tank - the Tiger I Mid!! My tanking skill should be of high enough quality by this time to produce a tank that will make me smile every time my eyes fall on it. lol - It won't be named Tony. I could name it Kampfmeister or something.

(5) Then I'll step into the light and build Allied armor! Shermans and Greyhounds and Pershings oh my!. Maybe I can even gather the courage to do figures with these kits, or a diorama!

Thanks everybody for all the input you have provided. Am quite satisfied with this planned course of action .. rate/critique it if you wish, I'm interested to see what responses I get to this!

Ok, here's my 2 cents!

Start with the Tamiya Tiger (look on e-bay, sometimes they have this one in the mid $20 range!). Get the PE grilles, as Eric (tigerman) said. It's a pretty straight forward build. Then get the Dragon Panther G with the night operations stuff. They give you three full sets of infared equipment molded in clear! You will have to build the indy (independent link) tracks, but they are pretty easy for German tanks. You will have to deal with ejector pin marks on them though. I've found that they really aren't that noticable if you base coat them in flat black before "metalizing" and rusting them.
Finally, go with the Pz IV. I don't know how accurate the Tamiya G is. Some of their IV's are older kits and are typical Tamiya kits of the day. The shurzen can be tricky, that's why I'd leave it to last.

Everyone has their own opinion, and this forum will certainly give them to you!! Good luck with your builds and school/work. Keep us posted as to how it's all going. And welcome to the darkside!

Tiger Tiger Tiger! It's a little bit bigger, a little bit meaner, and it has an 88mm. There's a half a dozen different varients available from Tamiya. I'm a big fan of the late "Steel Wheels" version. The Panther and Panzer IV are cool, but the Tiger would look most intimidating on your display stand.

Dunkelgelb is the German word for Dark Yellow. Standard base color from 1943 on.

Dwight was talking about indy tracks. They are standard in all Dragon kits. If they scare you off a bit, you may want to go with Tamiya. Do like me and give them a shot, they are much more realistic and appropriate for making that sag look on certain German vehicles.

Lastly, think of investing a few bucks in engine grilles. They are PE parts that really enhance the rear deck of any tank. Highly recommended.

Well, everybody, I will have you know that I am no stranger to the dark side. I know the power.
However, I do not rule any galaxies. Yet.
lol, maybe I can take one over with my Panzers, Tigers, and Panthers. But it would kinda suck to rule over a bunch of people who can't even defeat them.

Anyway....
All - Thank you for the warm reception. Much appreciated Keep the dark side flowing! mwaaaahahahahaaa

Chester - lol, buying all three is not right now an option. Perhaps by the time I reach a decision it will be, and perhaps I will remain undecided until I have enough money to just go ahead and take all three, but for now it is merely a fantastic and ideal resolution. We all know that girlfriends can certainly be expensive luxuries!

Tigerman - Many thanks to you for giving me the heads-up on Dragon's cheaper kit. It looks good. If I go with the Panther, theirs will be my choice kit. I'm not a particular fan of the Panzer IV Ausf J, but I guess it's based on simple bias for the H. Your tidbit on the difficulty differences between the two is duly noted. Also, you're not the only one who found humor in the whole tigerman says panther, panther says tiger affair.

Panther - .. and should I dub it Tony?

Dwight - Whoa now! Tracks - dang, I had totally forgotten. I do not want my first tank to call for track assembly by piecing each link together one by one. What do you mean by what you said?

wbill - ummm ... what is Dunkelgelb? I assume a color, but I've never heard of that term .. maybe I just know it by a different name but what are you talking about? [:0]

MurderDogg - I understand what you mean by saving the best for last (the Tiger I is my personal favorite of the three as well), and have passed that idea many times by now, but like I said - I keep on changing my mind. Now let's see what kind of salesman you'd make. What can you tell me that will have me wanting to take that specific course of action?

Thank you so much for everybody who has contributed advice and information to my little dilemma here. Good bunch of guys. I am still undecided, but thanks again for all your help and keep the feedback coming!

*closes hatch and rolls away* .... only to overheat after a little while and stop for maintenance.