best modern mbt?

Jeff Gunn

Member since
September 2004
From: Henlow, England

Posted by Jeff Gunn on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:21 AM

Do you think they ask these sorts of questions in the other forums Clown [:o)]

Like what type of aircraft would be the most economical on a short haul passenger route Captain [4:-)]

Now thats a good reason to be in the Armour Forum !!!!!!

JG Per Ardua

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:30 AM

I know you don't like french cheese, but don't forget the MBT leclerc....
( I think you are not agree with me, it doesn't matter )
But i have some informations on this point, between a leopard and a leclerc.

See you in few minute

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subfixer

Member since
March 2004
From: Spartanburg, SC

Posted by subfixer on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:31 AM

This type question IS asked on the other forums.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Strathcona

Member since
September 2004
From: Evil Empire ,Wainwright, AB, Canada

Posted by Strathcona on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:43 PM

Good point Sub and Jeff. Are the days of the MBT over? I could rant and rave , over this topic for hours, to the point , where you would have to beat me , to shut me up . I agree there is a need for faster , lighter , more transportable vehicles. But I think MBT's will be around for a long time to come. And to be on the receiving end of an A-10 Thunderbolt , NO THANKS! They tend to make tanks look like Swiss cheese , and give the hapless crew a bad case of lead poisoning.
Frank
" PERSEVERANCE"

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jimmy dyer

Member since
October 2004

Posted by jimmy dyer on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 8:34 PM

could one of you guys tell me how I could paint african american soliders for my amtrac

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Awood23

Member since
May 2003
From: Belgium

Posted by Awood23 on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 8:49 PM

There's not a "top gun" type compitition for tanks per say that I know of. I think the closest your gonna get is CMTC in Hoensfeld GE, JRTC Ft Polk LA and NTC Ft Irwin CA,
These are large simulated battlefields what Ive often heard refered to as "the box" where theres a trained OPFOR thats suposed to be familiar with opposisition type tactics. Most OPFORS that I know of simulate Soviet Block war machines with modified American stuff. (my favorites a 113 with a trashcan on top) Though with the availablilty of more Soviet style machinary more OPFOR's are starting to use the real stuff. Same with aircraft. I just read an artical the other day where the US bought several Mig-29's from Moldovia and when they're done stripping em down and evaluating flight performance they're going to be used at places like red flag and top gun.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Awood23/DarkSideBadge.jpg

"your' not trying if your not cheating" "no one ever won a war by dying for his country, he won it by making the other poor bugger die for his" 'never before have so many owed so much to so few" 1/48 Spitfire %80

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subfixer

Member since
March 2004
From: Spartanburg, SC

Posted by subfixer on Thursday, October 14, 2004 10:18 AM

Jimmy Dyer......I have included Afro-Americans on many of my models including the PBR I am currently building. I use Tamiya red brown and add a little black to it. You can use white or buff to lighten it also.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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spector822002

Member since
December 2003
From: Southern Maine

Posted by spector822002 on Thursday, October 14, 2004 5:15 PM

Well it is hard to argue with experience , and Ron definately has that , I would have to say the M1 A1 or 2 or the chally would have to be the tank I would want to be in during battle . The leo looks kind of iffy, due to that obvious shot trap in the front turret ! Its funny he,( Ron ,) mentioned that as well , because that is the first thing I thought when I first saw that tank ! It is still a cool looking machine and I am sure it is pretty darn dangerous to face as well !

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Dwight Ta-ala

Member since
July 2003
From: Philippines

Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Thursday, October 14, 2004 6:39 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by jimmy dyer

could one of you guys tell me how I could paint african american soliders for my amtrac

Jimmy,

I have tried Tamiya Dark Brown with a light wash of flat black. I think it turned out OK. If you want to see click on this link and scroll down to the bottom of the page.

http://www.geocities.com/ddta_ala/m1a1ha.htm

Good luck.

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 17, 2004 9:26 AM

i think that i would want to be in a merkava mk 4 over any other MBT out there now its range is well beyond that of any other MBT and close in they are even better

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/MerkavaMk4.html

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 17, 2004 10:56 AM

Wow Dwight I really liked your Abrams collection, looks like youre addicted to them to.

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jthurston

Member since
October 2004
From: Katy, TX

Posted by jthurston on Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:26 AM

On the T72 vs. M1 question, there's no comparison. Read "Road to Baghdad" by Martin Stanton (major, US Army). He talks about Iraqi armor maintenance and their failures in training and proficiency. They simply didn't know what good looked like. The tank crews were poorly trained and poorly motivated. But as far as the actual tanks go, there's pretty good evidence that the M1 had the T72 beaten easily; I personally saw M1A1 Heavies in the Gulf in '91 with T72 rounds stuck in the glacis armor. They T72 just couldn't compete. Sure it's possible for the "golden shot" to make some lucky T72 gunner a temporary celebrity by poking a hole in an M1, but the vast majority of tank-on-tank encounters have come out in favor of the M1.

BTW, if you guys are interested, here's a walkaround I did a couple of weeks ago here in Iraq (I might have posted this before):

http://www.PictureTrail.com/jthurston

~J

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Dwight Ta-ala

Member since
July 2003
From: Philippines

Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Sunday, October 17, 2004 6:40 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by jessiahkinnamon

Wow Dwight I really liked your Abrams collection, looks like youre addicted to them to.

Not really addicted. It just happenned that Dragon's M1 kits are sold at a very low price here.

Thanks for taking a peek into my website. Tongue [:P]

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:24 PM

some links you might like

A Leopard 2, Challenger 2, Leclerc and an Abrams roll off the transport... http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=23222&REPLY_ID=229033#229033

Best looking tank http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=22249&REPLY_ID=215812#215812

How would you rate....... http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=5718

OK, Tanks Rock!! - but what's your favorite? http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=22&REPLY_ID=113#113

lots of photos on them links

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 18, 2004 3:12 AM

Just because I didn't see anybody mentioning it... (I might have missed it):
The Leo2A6 has an advantage due to an improved gun.
The Abrams has a comparable, possibly even bigger, advantage due to the US' use of radioactive waste - uh, sorry, Depleted Uranium, in the projectiles.

Apart from that, Leo can mount that nifty additional front turret armor, while M1 has better (front) hull armor.

Can't comment on anything else, though.

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subfixer

Member since
March 2004
From: Spartanburg, SC

Posted by subfixer on Monday, October 18, 2004 6:56 AM

Yep, radioactive waste... We've got lots of it and can make plenty more. Watch out!

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 18, 2004 1:52 PM

Two points - to the best of my knowledge , the Merkava MK3 an MK4 are the only tanks in the world with air-conditioning. That goes a long way in the desert.

Second, the current enemies of the free world (terrorists) will not be taken out in tank battles. That era is over .

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 18, 2004 2:01 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by t3488g

what do you guys think is the best modern mbt? they all seem to have advantages and disadvantages, but which is the best overal?

The answer is, no one knows. Much of this is classified, and these tanks have never fought each other, so it's hard to judge from experience. Smile [:)]

All of the current generation of Western MBTs are probably roughly on par -- the Challenger 2, the LeClerc, the M1A2, the Leo 2A6. One might have a little more speed, but that's because it has a little less armor -- that sort of thing.

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mrwidgeon

Member since
May 2004
From: USA

Posted by mrwidgeon on Monday, October 18, 2004 4:51 PM

Re,Zokissima,
The M1A2 and the Leo 2A5 use the same gun and ammo,from what I understand the 2A6 not only has a longer guntube,they also have a new ballistic computer AND ammo to get the best out of it. The Challenger has a different gun and uses 2 part ammunition(projectile and charge) the others use 1 piece cased round with a burnable case.

Bill Bailey

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 18, 2004 5:01 PM

QUOTE: Originally posted by mrwidgeon

Re,Zokissima,
The M1A2 and the Leo 2A5 use the same gun and ammo,from what I understand the 2A6 not only has a longer guntube,they also have a new ballistic computer AND ammo to get the best out of it. The Challenger has a different gun and uses 2 part ammunition(projectile and charge) the others use 1 piece cased round with a burnable case.

The US has acquired two of the longer barrelled 120mm guns from the German manufacturer and there were plans to test these longer barrels on the M1A2. Should be a drop fit, as the gun is more or less identical other than the longer barrel.

Two tanks were allocated to conduct the tests. It was budgeted for, but I don't know what ever came of the tests.

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Awood23

Member since
May 2003
From: Belgium

Posted by Awood23 on Monday, October 18, 2004 5:10 PM

Challengers, Merkva's and Leopards are all great tanks to be sure but the M1A2 has an A-10 flying cover for it and that makes all the difference :)
Sorry, as a wingy thingy builder I couldnt resist it. I think I'd say that all these tanks are failry on par with each other and in the end its not going to be the tank that wins the day but the "total concept" By that I mean a combination of quality of equipment, quality of troops, sheer size of forces deployed, and tactics used - not just by the tank crew men but by all forces involved. Remember a tank is an awsome weapon but an infantry man (quite often considered the pawn of the battle field) can take out, by him self any one of these great machines.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Awood23/DarkSideBadge.jpg

"your' not trying if your not cheating" "no one ever won a war by dying for his country, he won it by making the other poor bugger die for his" 'never before have so many owed so much to so few" 1/48 Spitfire %80

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grandadjohn

Member since
February 2003
From: phoenix

Posted by grandadjohn on Monday, October 18, 2004 8:19 PM

Take two of each tank, equally mantained with equally trained crews, put them on the plains of Europe were the were built to fight and have two battles, one day and one night. Then see who wins.
John
Helicopters don't fly, they beat the air into submission
P.S. Watch out for the Apache hovering behind the tree's with Hellfire's.
P.S.S. We'll let them use blanks with MILS gear

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csutton

Member since
August 2003
From: USA

Posted by csutton on Monday, October 18, 2004 11:54 PM

Hello all,

I am new to posting here but I have an opinion about the best MBT. My two cents has to be put in for the Merkava. The Israeli's have done some amazing things with these tanks. Mind you the tank has parts from most of the world's military powers in it but they have put them together into a powerful, strong, agile, and SAFE tank. This tank was built with the crew in mind. It was built around the crew to try and keep them as safe as possible. Again this is a time of HE rounds, Armor piercing rounds, HEAT rounds and other assortments of rounds from tank guns, along with tows and hellfires and such from the air, but this tank was designed to keep the crew as safe as possible. Thats my two cents. Thanks for listening.

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Dwight Ta-ala

Member since
July 2003
From: Philippines

Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 12:17 AM

In line with this topic PIWI posted this link at the LEM site (I hope he doesn't mind). This is the video of the Merkava 4. Warning: This is a large sized video suitable for those with broadband connections only.

Amazing.

mms://video.nrg.co.il/lib/2004/news/mark4.wmv

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Awood23

Member since
May 2003
From: Belgium

Posted by Awood23 on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 12:45 AM

dwight, you hit the nail on the head with that description, amazing.
you should post that video in a new thread for everyone else to see.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Awood23/DarkSideBadge.jpg

"your' not trying if your not cheating" "no one ever won a war by dying for his country, he won it by making the other poor bugger die for his" 'never before have so many owed so much to so few" 1/48 Spitfire %80

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djmodels1999

Member since
December 2002
From: United Kingdom / Belgium

Posted by djmodels1999 on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 1:59 AM

Anyone mentionned the Leclerc..?? I just like it!

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subfixer

Member since
March 2004
From: Spartanburg, SC

Posted by subfixer on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 5:17 AM

Yes, the Leclerc was mentioned earlier in the thread.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 6:08 AM

Sure DjModels.
As i said on another topic, one of my friend is Leclerc Chief. He made simulating Fight
in germany, in order to compare Leo2A5 and leclercT5 or 6 .
After a week of testing, it's 50-50 %.... make now your idea ! The more important thing, it's the screw. Ask to WWII vet's tank crew who fought after in Korean. It's more easy with experience of fight and high trained screw.

Now it's sure with a A-10...With Shilka, i'm not sure that A-10 have a peaceful fly, but i'm not an expert.

Another idea, that's american and english screw are more reliable and better, they fought in Iraqi war. You can do 1.000.000 exercises, no one can replace real fight.

That's all folks.

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Anonymous

Member since
November 2005

Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 6:10 AM

I apologize....In my mind it's CREW. Sorry for my bad english, it's not my mother tongue...

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subfixer

Member since
March 2004
From: Spartanburg, SC

Posted by subfixer on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 8:46 AM

It's OK, Leclerc, many of us native English speakers don't do half as well as you. And besides, "screw" was a good way to put it. I am sure tankers have felt the "screw" many times.

I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

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