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Blackened Muzzles???

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  • Member since
    October 2005
  • From: Brisbane, Australia
Posted by shaun68 on Friday, July 21, 2006 5:45 AM
what tanks have their brakes painted black?

Merkavas do
  • Member since
    October 2003
  • From: Clovis, Calif
Posted by rebelreenactor on Friday, July 21, 2006 2:24 AM

even if it's just oil, still black.

John
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Tacoma WA
Posted by gjek on Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:36 PM
The tanks with the white wash could easly have had their guntubes cleaned. One of the last processes is to oil the inside of the tube. The muzzle break is probably oiled on the inside also to keep the rust down. Oil could easily get on the outside and get wiped off leaving a dark oil stain. If you notice the loaders hatch and the hull MG ball mount are almost the same color as the muzzel break.  Greg
Msgt USMC Ret M48, M60A1, M1A1
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posted by m1garand on Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:32 PM

Kykeon,

Good point.  Heat can definitely discolor the paint.  In fact, when my friend was graduating from FA-OBC, his class took group picture in front of 2 paladins and both of them had partially discolored barrels and faded paints due to extreme heat caused by live fire exercise.

  • Member since
    September 2005
Posted by Kykeon on Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:28 PM

Here is what Steven Zaloga, well-known military book author and historian, has to say on the subject;

"I know that the general consensus among armor modelers seems to be that muzzle darkening did not occur due to soot from the propellant. Point well taken, but the muzzle ends of weapons did discolor due to the extreme heat of the propellant gas, sometime burning away the paint. On some photos of WW2 gun tubes, you can see that barrel heat has blistered the paint."

 

 

  • Member since
    October 2003
  • From: Clovis, Calif
Posted by rebelreenactor on Thursday, July 20, 2006 10:59 PM

Excellent point dwight, you put it very well. The reason i was confused was because all i had heard was no black muzzles, so i stopped putting the black on them, then i found these and got to wondering. What you said really makes sense.

Montana, Tigers on the eastern front has sseveral pics of black muzzles brakes, some are debateable but others stick out like a sore thumb.

John
  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: I'm here physically, but not mentally.....
Posted by MontanaCowboy on Thursday, July 20, 2006 9:33 PM

Even so, out of the thousands upon thousands of German vehicles produced, these are the only pics I've seen that could possibly have blackened muzzles.

I have reason to believe that these vehicles were out of the ordinary and are specifically different than most vehicles, other than the obvious.

I have a question, why would brakes be sooty and black as opposed to unmodded?

 

"You know, Life is like a Rollercoaster. Sometimes you just die unexpectedly." No wait, that's not it.
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Thursday, July 20, 2006 9:30 PM

John,

Those are very good reference pictures. Two of those pics are what I referred to as among the few I have seen with darker muzzles.

However, since the blackening of the muzzles of tank guns does not appear in most of the pictures available, it would not be logical (in my uninformed opinion) to conclude that it is a common occurrence. More of an exception IMHO rather than the rule. Also, we cannot clearly explain why those muzzles are darker in color.

It is in this regard that I (without any feeling of guilt or fear of losing sleep over it) freely do darken (or do not darken) the muzzles of the guns of my models.

I love this hobby!Big Smile [:D]

  • Member since
    October 2003
  • From: Clovis, Calif
Posted by rebelreenactor on Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:34 PM
 MontanaCowboy wrote:

Well, easy, the tiger is in a whitewash, and the brake is not, making quite a difference in color, making the muzzle appear darker than it is.

not easy, the dark yellow basecoat is visible near the radio operators mg. It is clearly a diffrent color. The road wheels were not painted with white wash and have been covered with mud so you cant tell from there. And it doesn't make any sense why you would not whitewash the muzzlebrake.  Even if left unpainted it is still too dark.

John
  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: I'm here physically, but not mentally.....
Posted by MontanaCowboy on Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:02 PM

Well, easy, the tiger is in a whitewash, and the brake is not, making quite a difference in color, making the muzzle appear darker than it is.

The second I can not figure.

the third could have possibly been in a fire, or in shadow partially when that pic was snapped.

"You know, Life is like a Rollercoaster. Sometimes you just die unexpectedly." No wait, that's not it.
  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: I am at play in the fields of the Lord. (Texas)
Posted by m60a3 on Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:42 PM
 rebelreenactor wrote:

no black muzzles? please explain these:

click to enlarge or see whole pic.

(sorry about low qulity on this one)

 

 

the stugs came from one magazine, that means there are bound to be others out there.

 



 Easy. Artistic license.Tongue [:P]
"I lay like a small idea in a vacant mind" - Wm. Least Heat Moon "I am at the center of the earth." - Black Elk My FSM friends are the best.
  • Member since
    October 2003
  • From: Clovis, Calif
Posted by rebelreenactor on Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:38 PM

no black muzzles? please explain these:

click to enlarge or see whole pic.

(sorry about low qulity on this one)

 

 

the stugs came from one magazine, that means there are bound to be others out there.

 

John
  • Member since
    May 2006
Posted by MortarMagnet on Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:30 PM
The Jumbo was an assault tank, much more protection.  It was built off the standard M4A3.  There were only a couple hundred of them.  The frontal armor could take quite a lick.  The Jumbo also came onto the scene after the A1 76(W).  The Jumbo also suffered from poor mobility, the tracks didn't distribute the added weight so well. 
Brian
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:29 PM
The Jumbo is better protected as additional plates where added to the front and sides of the hull, the turret and the transmission cover are likewise thicker.

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: I am at play in the fields of the Lord. (Texas)
Posted by m60a3 on Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:15 PM
 Hmmm. Any idea which one was better protected? I'm guessing the later welded one. Why move backward instead of forward and all...
 Same 76...If only they had had better guns from the beginning and tactics had been more on tank -vs- tank than infantry support. More of our guys would have survived.

 I shall now cease my rambling.

                                                                   -60
"I lay like a small idea in a vacant mind" - Wm. Least Heat Moon "I am at the center of the earth." - Black Elk My FSM friends are the best.
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Thursday, July 20, 2006 6:08 PM

 m60a3 wrote:
 Dwight Ta Ala or some Sherman expert,
 
 On the two Shermans you pictured, what are the designations? Differences would be the guns and the body, but why such a drastic change in appearance etc.
 I'm no Sherman expert or WWII expert or such like many of you. These are not details that I know like some of you know your own childrens birthdates. I'm just curious. Thanks for any answers.


 PS

 I bet some of you knew the differences
immediately and then read further and
had to think about those birthdays!!

                                                                                               -60

 

No expert either.

The first sherman is an M4A3E2 (76) better known as the "Jumbo".

The second one is an M4A1(76).

The M4A3's hull is made up of welded steel plates while that of the M4A1 is a cast hull. 

  • Member since
    April 2005
  • From: I am at play in the fields of the Lord. (Texas)
Posted by m60a3 on Thursday, July 20, 2006 5:41 PM
 Dwight Ta Ala or some Sherman expert,
 
 On the two Shermans you pictured, what are the designations? Differences would be the guns and the body, but why such a drastic change in appearance etc.
 I'm no Sherman expert or WWII expert or such like many of you. These are not details that I know like some of you know your own childrens birthdates. I'm just curious. Thanks for any answers.


 PS

 I bet some of you knew the differences
immediately and then read further and
had to think about those birthdays!!

                                                                                               -60
"I lay like a small idea in a vacant mind" - Wm. Least Heat Moon "I am at the center of the earth." - Black Elk My FSM friends are the best.
  • Member since
    September 2005
Posted by Kykeon on Thursday, July 20, 2006 2:07 PM
I might add that I did see a considerable amount of bare metal in and around the muzzle brake baffles. Blistered and chipped paint was also evident on the muzzle brakes as well.
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 20, 2006 9:51 AM
thanks for the help friends! Big Smile [:D]
  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by T26E4 on Thursday, July 20, 2006 8:06 AM
Hi Mortar:  I guess I'm known by my previous rants, eh?  LOL

Clean Muzzle Coalition members rise up and unite!!!!

Roy Chow 

Join AMPS!

http://www.amps-armor.org

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Philippines
Posted by Dwight Ta-ala on Thursday, July 20, 2006 5:14 AM

Colored WWII pictures indicate that there is no blackening of muzzles in tanks. There are a few pictures that I have seen that shows somewhat darkened muzzles probably because of dirt or paint reaction to heat.

As for me I sometimes darken the muzzles of my models because I like the look of it.

Sometimes, I don't.

If you are trying to build to be realistic or for a contest where judges would probably be meticulous, then I suggest that you don't blacken the muzzle of your model. (Although I have seen contests where models with blackened muzzles winning the top prizes.Smile [:)])

But if you want to just build for yourself, then you are free to do whatever you want.Big Smile [:D]

 

  • Member since
    September 2005
Posted by Kykeon on Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:07 AM

Here is a little blurb on the subject;

http://www.panzerworld.net/blackmuzzles.html

On my recent trip to Germany, I had a chance to visit the Wehrtechnische Museum in Koblenz and the Deutsche Panzermuseum in Munster. One of the things I looked for was this very subject. Unfortunately, since most of the vehicles and guns are restored, any evidence of discoloration is long gone. However, there were some guns that were left in their original paint. There was no blackening evident on these weapons.

What was interesting though, was the belief in muzzle blackening, as some of the tanks actually were spray painted black on the muzzles! Here is an example, the lovely "Ute" at Koblenz;

This leichte I.G. 18 is in it's original paint. The muzzle doesn't look any more weathered than the rest of the piece;

  • Member since
    May 2006
Posted by MortarMagnet on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:48 PM
I've got some slides of USMC M60A1s with painted muzzles, although they don't have a brake or blast deflector.  I couldn't tell you why, but they are very clearly painted black.  By the time of WWII, advanced propellents were being used.  Soot was, more or less, left behind in the 19th century.
Brian
  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: I'm here physically, but not mentally.....
Posted by MontanaCowboy on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:25 PM

Most projectiles use smokeless powder, even in WWII. The only real burning may occur Inside the muzzle brake. I like the look of it on a used tank, even though it's not realistic.

^^ what tanks have their brakes painted black?

That's all I have to say.

/post.

"You know, Life is like a Rollercoaster. Sometimes you just die unexpectedly." No wait, that's not it.
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Philippines
Posted by constructor on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:20 PM
I think that the muzzles get blackened when firing occurs because the burnt powder and soot gets attached to the muzzle just like the end of a car muffler gets blackened. This maybe the reason why some tanks have their muzzles intentionally painted black to hide the blackening due to firing.
  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Tacoma WA
Posted by gjek on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:01 PM
I know from years of tanking that the end of the guntube gets dark when the interior of the tube is cleaned. The oils/ solvents used in cleaning and oiling will temperarally stain/darken the paint until it evaporates/ gets cleaned off.   Greg
Msgt USMC Ret M48, M60A1, M1A1
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: On my kitchen counter top somewhere in North Carolina.
Posted by disastermaster on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><table class="quoteOuterTable"><tr><td class="txt4"><img src="/FSM/CS/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif">&nbsp;<strong>m1garand wrote:</strong></td></tr><tr><td class="quoteTable"><table width="100%"><tr><td width="100%" valign="top" class="txt4">There was a thread about this same topic few months ago. I've seen photos of tanks right after the heavy fighting and did not show the blackened muzzle. I've seen tanks after live fire exercise, but don't recall seeing their muzzles darkened due to gun fire. </td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here ya go:

http://www.finescale.com/FSM/CS/search/SearchResults.aspx?q=
%20Black%20Muzzle%20brakes&f=&u=

Stupid AOL broswer.

"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"

 

 
  • Member since
    May 2006
Posted by MortarMagnet on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:58 PM
Blackening will only occur if the paint burns.  The smoke will not blacken the muzzle.  If the muzzle were to black from smoke the barrel would also be so sooty it would be unusable.  I'm waiting for T26 to read this.Smile [:)]
Brian
  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posted by m1garand on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:50 PM
There was a thread about this same topic few months ago.  I've seen photos of tanks right after the heavy fighting and did not show the blackened muzzle.  I've seen tanks after live fire exercise, but don't recall seeing their muzzles darkened due to gun fire. 
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