The shell on the ground is no big deal since they were pretty sloppy anyway.

The site folded down is probably more realistic than if it was up as these were more "point and pray" than aimed wepons anyway.

Having fired these (not in anger) I do have a huge issue with their depiction though. He has maybe an inch of corner of the butt against the top of his shoulder. Fire it like that and it's gonna' HURT! The recoil on these was not huge but I would still want it spread out not focused on one small point.

They have a part called a "shoulder saver" for a reason.

Pawel

One thing thet bothers me at once are the 40mm rounds laying in the dirt like that

The rounds are big and fat and are single-loaded.  So "you" are less likely to get 4-5 out at a time.  Especially to have to bend over to the ground and fish the next one up to load it.

Unlike later 40mm grenade rounds, the ones used operate on a high-low principal.  The propelling charge goes off in a central "cup" in the case, which then "bleeds" into the annular space around the round, which "lobs" the round out "gently."  (If in a stout kick to the shoulder.)

But, that meant that the M-79 really did not need its sight, while the grenade lobbed ut at 3-4 times the speed of hand-thrown, it was not rifle-shot fast.  So, it was like whacking a self-tossed tennis ball with a racket, or a basebal with a bat.  The user, with experience, had a pretty good idea where the round was like to go.

So, loose rounds were more likely to be in a blouse pocket or thigh pocket, where they'd be in reach for the reload.

Now, in this case, the pistol holser is appropriate, as the "blooper" wanted a proer arm of some sort, and carrying a slung M-16 was not convenent (and, presumably, the other members of your Squad had plenty of M-16s themselves).

The holster will be black dyed leather (although over-dyed black on russet were common in the field).

Contemporary photos of LBE rigs for grenadiers are all over the place, so, this one has no obvious Francois "farbys." 

The ammo cases are stiff canvas, so the shape is right.  There's a strap from the top back of the case that goes up to the "H" suspenders, which Francois may have skipped over.

The pose could be read as "high ready," which might explain being a meter or two back behind actual cover.

Likely, this wil lbe a cool build.

That ammo pouch is for an M-16 not for 40mm ammo.  I suppose you could go through the trouble of cutting the internal magazine seperators  but still you couldn't hold more than a couple rounds.  They did make a vest to hold about 12 rounds, I think it was but I never saw one outside of a manual.  

As the weapon started to wear the paint came off to reveal the fiberglass stock.  I found the faded pinkish color to be a bit strange considering what it was on but that's just me.

The figure coiuld be shown wearing some kind of pouch with the strap going over his shoulder or maybe a pilot's vest.  We would try to find them because they had several pouches thet could hold all sorts of things.  I still have one I "collected" over there.

The color of the greande's warhead would be a slightly golden color and the casing was a sort of greenish brass color.  I have an old practice round that I can take a picture of if you need it.

I personannly never used the M-79 outside of combat school.  We would carry the XM-148 on some of our rifles or the XM-174 automatic for some of our patrols, and let the mortor pit crews have the 79s, nobody else wanted them.

Hello!

Thanks everybody for your comments - like I hoped loads of good info here!

Tcoat - yeah, I noticed that thing about the stock of the grenade launcher too, but I thought it is just a careless assembly... As it turns out the model has a very pronounced hole in the shoulder to accept the butt of the grenade launcher precisely like that... Of course I'll be modifying that.

Cap'n - lots of good info as always! I checked it, those straps from the ammo pouches are molded as part of the torso, so it's all right.

Bob - nice to hear from you! What do you say, would a claymore bag be good for carrying more ammo here? I think that would be easiest for me to sculpt.

And I already started something:

The pose is pretty hard to get right, so I pinned all the joints to help me. The red arrow points to the hole in the shoulder that will be filled. I'll use milliput to join the arms to give me some working time and fill the gaps at the same time. If you look closely the torso has the straps belonging to the ammo pouches Cap'n mantionend with pretty nice carabiners, too.

Stay tuned for more updates - I hope to have them for you soon. Thanks for looking and have a nice day

Paweł

Pawel

 

Tcoat - yeah, I noticed that thing about the stock of the grenade launcher too, but I thought it is just a careless assembly... As it turns out the model has a very pronounced hole in the shoulder to accept the butt of the grenade launcher precisely like that... Of course I'll be modifying that.

 

Paweł

 

Out of pure curiosity I went looking for pictures. I would not be at all suprised to find out that they created the mold based on this one as the buttplate is in exactly the same place and the guy's face even looks like the kit, allbeit he is a bit more subdued in the model:

As it appears too be an action shot (although could be posed) they likly either caught it as he was raising into fireing posistion or had just fired and was bringing the muzzle down. That of course is the problem with action pictures since you don't se the lead up or folow through they can be deceiving.

I don't see why they couldn't use a claymore bag or for that matter who's to say he couldn't have a custom bag or something else he scrounged up?  Our low velocity grenades had to be shot and reach a certain distance from the barrel before they were considered live.Ince the ubternl parts rotated out of the way and the detonator inside was resdy, it only took about three bounds of inpact pressure to set them off.  One night I went to one of our pits and the motor team were using their 40mm rounds to build a tower with wood, and other things that were laying around, and using 81mm shells as a base.

I remember the recoil from those M79s from combat school and they were worse that our M-148 launchers or even ouir 12 gage shotguns.

In the early 80's we had these cloth bandoliers of 40mm grenades. I was assigned a M16/M203. We were shown and taught the M79 for familiarzation "just in case". I'm willing to bet that they were Vietnam vintage like the rest of our ammo we used for qualifying. Shoot up the old expiring stuff first. The bandoleers had a plastic inserts to hold three 40mm rounds in each side.

I remember those.  "Old and expiring".  Thanks, I feel so much younger now.  Those were stored in the typical G.I. ammo cans.  On our armored vehicles, the M-113 and XM-706 they were usually in the 30 caliber cans or larger cans meant for r weapons like the 20mm.  It just depended what was available.  I never saw what they arrived at the base in because the armory received them and then divided them into pre-determined ammounts according to who would get them.  I remember when the 40mm flare rounds first showed up they would be issued out in standard 30 caliber cans that were painted white.

ikar01

I remember those.  "Old and expiring".  Thanks, I feel so much younger now.  Those were stored in the typical G.I. ammo cans.  On our armored vehicles, the M-113 and XM-706 they were usually in the 30 caliber cans or larger cans meant for r weapons like the 20mm.  It just depended what was available.  I never saw what they arrived at the base in because the armory received them and then divided them into pre-determined ammounts according to who would get them.  I remember when the 40mm flare rounds first showed up they would be issued out in standard 30 caliber cans that were painted white.

 

The "what was available" statement is probably the most accurate yet. As modelers we can sometimes get so focused upon what was issued that we either forgot or didn't know that the much more common equipment used was what was available. Could probably throw them in an old floor sack or shopping bag and it would be as accurate as an actual bandolier or case designed for them.

What was meant to be used and what was actually used could be two radically different things! 

Sometimes we had problems finding ordinary things like a canteen or a set of those "H" supports to help with our web belts.  Some guys went to the local flea market and came back with left over WWII belt harnesses among other things.  A friend I had i the K-9 section came up with a way to get some of the things we needed for free.  We had a salvage yard no far from one of our gates and only a few blocks from the barracks.  Since it was being guarded by a dog team at night we came to an agreement that the handler would scout out the inventory and we would show up late at night and grab what we could.  When we got back to the barracks we would split up the haul with K-9 who occupied the third floor.  A couple raids and we had what we needed and never went back.  Besides eventually someone would notice things missing.

Cool project Pawel! 

And thanks guys- I'm learning as I follow along. 

Pawel

Hello!

Thanks everybody for your comments - like I hoped loads of good info here!

Tcoat - yeah, I noticed that thing about the stock of the grenade launcher too, but I thought it is just a careless assembly... As it turns out the model has a very pronounced hole in the shoulder to accept the butt of the grenade launcher precisely like that... Of course I'll be modifying that.

Cap'n - lots of good info as always! I checked it, those straps from the ammo pouches are molded as part of the torso, so it's all right.

Bob - nice to hear from you! What do you say, would a claymore bag be good for carrying more ammo here? I think that would be easiest for me to sculpt.

And I already started something:

The pose is pretty hard to get right, so I pinned all the joints to help me. The red arrow points to the hole in the shoulder that will be filled. I'll use milliput to join the arms to give me some working time and fill the gaps at the same time. If you look closely the torso has the straps belonging to the ammo pouches Cap'n mantionend with pretty nice carabiners, too.

Stay tuned for more updates - I hope to have them for you soon. Thanks for looking and have a nice day

Paweł

 

I suggest NOT filling that "hole" in his shoulder since its supposed to be where the M79 stock is supposed to go. I hope you did a fitting test first.

Not to hijack your post, but these are a few pics of my 120mm Verlinden Recon w/M79 grenade launcher. It was a gift from a friend, but the figure's M79, which was missing, was supposed to be in the shotgun mode for loading, so I did the best I could with the set I ordered from Verlinden(ebay).

Hello everybody!

Thanks a lot for your comments!

Tcoat - good find! Yeah, that might just be the photo good ole Francois used as a reference for this one. Then it's just like him to add "stuff" for dramatic effect like everything under the universal strap on the helmet - cards, bug juice and so on.

And no - I'm not very focused on the issued stuff - historical reference is my main focus point.

Bob - OK, so I'll try to add one more bag just for extra 40mm ammo. Or maybe a bandoleer like Stik just posted - thanks a lot Stik!

So what was the main function of this salvage yard you mentioned? What stuff did they have there and where did it come from?

Gamera - thanks a lot, nice to have you in this thread as always!

Tiger II - thanks a lot for the heads up, but maybe you noticed it's already been discussed earlier - the pose of the original kit isn't really plausible for people that used to fire the actual blooper, I don't like it either, so it gets modified.

And I have actually done it - and a lot of test fitting went into it. I thought I've had it done on the first time, but then Tcoat posted the photo and the more I looked at it the more I felt I have to rework it. I also used my soldering iron to heat up the hands a little and reshape them some to grab the weapon tighter. OK, so here are the photos - the torso, head and the weapons are dry fitted at his point:

Now I have to do some filling and sanding at the wrists and then it will slowly be time to start painting...

Thanks for looking and have a nice day

Paweł

TigerII

Not to hijack your post, but these are a few pics of my 120mm Verlinden Recon w/M79 grenade launcher.

Oops - we cross posted! No problem, thanks a lot for the pics! Lookin' good, and it's especially interesting to see the "grenade vest" on him. In the original kit he was loading the M79, right?

Thanks a lot and have a nice day

Paweł

Given that this figure is meant to be of 66-68 vintage (from the details) the ammo pouch will be the M-56 Universal Ammunition Carrier.

Viz:

This was meant to carry BAR mags, an entire bandolier of Garand ammo in en bloc clips, M-1 carbine magazines, or a hundred round belt of either M2 ball (30-06) or 7.62x51 (308) ammo.   It had no dividers, just an open canvas box.

The fabic tubes & straps on either side are meant to take a grenade per each (the handle of the spoon slid down the tube, and the strap went around the "neck" of the grenade).

When the M-16 started being issues, the 20 round magazines were too short for this carrier.  The "in the field" solution was to put either an empty mag, or, more typically, a field dressing in the bottom to lift the magazines up.

That prompted the creation of the M-67 Carrier Magazine M-16:

These were made of nylon (as was all the new M-67 LBE).  It had dividers, skinny ones that were often hacked out in the field.
Because Murphy's parent were not married the new pouch started delivery in Theater about the same time as the brand-new 30 round magazines.
Necessitating needing this:

Which came out as part of the USMC-begun LINCOE LBE project.  (LINCOE pouches have a full-length dividers which were either loved or loathed in the field.)

This is a great confusion among collectors trying to sort out.  All of these are "period correct" magazine carriers used in RVN:

So, the '56 pouches are appropriate to the figure, although the strap ought to be pulled out of one, and the top ajar.

The metal eye woud slip off the front staple unles the fabric strap was stabbed through, not an easy task whie crouching in a fied under fire.

Pawel: Looks good! The modifications look really natural. 

Love all the information you guys are posting. As I said I'm getting a real education here too. 

Never saw anything but bandoliers. Whatever you do Pawel I know it will be exceptional.

At the salvage yard they collected all sorts of uniforms and equipment that was damaged or turned in by the military.  We had a lot of Army uniforms sitting out the came from the Army.  We were told that when they left their fatigues had to be turned in and they were left to just go to ruin outside.  Equipment was stored in various connexes and that's where we got most of out things.  They also took old camera film and melted it down for the silver content.  The small furnace sat in its own area with puddles of silver sitting around its base.

Hello everybody!

Cap'n - great info on the ammo pouches! Looks like good ole' Francois got this one right, there are two pouches in the kit like the one in the first photo you posted. If they don't have the internal partitions, they could be used for a few rounds of 40mm.. I'm going to show one of them open. But I'll probably need something more, looking at how many cases are laying there on the ground. Probably a bandoleer or that claymore bag.

Gamera - thanks a lot, I'm glad you like my mods so far!

Glenn - thank you very much, you really motivate me here!

Bob - thanks for the clarification! So we have supply shortages while stuff is roatting away just next door, huh? That's cool, too - puddles of silver just waiting to get lost...

Right now I'm having minor problems with some filling - looks like my filler didn't harden right, I have to re-do that before I start painting. Hope to get you fresh in progress photos soon, anyway!

Thanks again and have a nice day

Paweł

Just remember that unless you were skating on a patrol outside the wire those web belts ran out of real estate very quickly for pouches. Big diff between an afternoon stroll with one canteen and four days at a crack with a minimum of three, thus bandoliers. Empty claymore bags were indeed great catchalls. (camera and film). The head scarf...well it came as part of the model...

Pawel

looking at how many cases are laying there on the ground.

And, by eyeball, from the box cover art, those appear very long.

40mm grenade sections (note the ammo shown is after the period depicted, but is the same proportions)

The cases are very "stumpy" and, at 120mm scale, ought show the prominent "lump" of the high-pressure capusle.

To my thinking, our dear Francois may have been shown (or seen) something like this:

And presumed only the "blue bit" flew out (such proportions being more consistent with other projectiles, too).

Alternately, he found, or was shown, the more modern "High Pressure" grenades, which have a longer case length (and cannot be used in the M-79 nor Mk 8 launchers).

One of the features of the M-79 was that it could take long smke or gas grenades, as it loaded like a shotgun.  The grenade vest that was evetually issued circa 1970 even had four longer pouches for those rounds

This ability went away in the XM-178 and later M-203 launchers.  But reurned with the introduction of the HK M-320 just a few years back, now (barrel tips out to the side).

In 1972 we also used the new flare grenades.  It could be compared to a slap flare except that it was a little longer that the standard low velocity grenades we used in our 148 and M-79 launchers as well as our XM-174 automatic launcher. I think we started to get them in no long before the 1972 Easter Offensive.  They were issued out in white ammo boxes to keep them seperate.

Glenn, Cap'n - thanks a lot for your comments!

Very good info on the low pressure 40mm rounds here - I haven't seen any with my own eyes and I actually didn't know that the case was so stubby - but I'm definitely going to work this into the base.

I have a little update at last:

I filled and sanded the joints smooth now, and I had to re-do the bracelet that got lost in process. I have also sawed apart one of the ammo pouches and I did some sculpting to show it open, as per your suggestions. I still have to re-do the "locking eyelets" of it and the strap, but I definitely had to do some fitting, because the ammo pouches work a little like machine keys here when joining the torso to the base.

I sure ache to start painting, but I know that it's not so cool to do any cutting later when everything is painted, so I want to dry fit as much as I can before I paint.

Thanks for lookin' and have a nice day

Paweł

Pawel

I filled and sanded the joints smooth now

Good to see your superb putty skills at their usual levels.

The depiction of this figure, as with too many of Francois' figures, strike anachronistic.

He's not wearing a flak jacket, which suggests before '67.  But he has playing cards in the helmet band, an affectation that did not really begin until after '67.  Is what it is, so, work with what you have--the modeler's lot in life.

Now, I did notice something.  One of the very distinctive things about the M-79 is just how thin the barrel tube is.  (The low pressure behind the grenade does not require a heavy barrel.)

That "thinness" is going to take some skill to render well.  I'm not sure a person can find brass tube with walls thin enough even at 120mm scale.  Which does suggest rather a lost of fiddling with dril bits and scalpel blades.

If you add a sling (these are in more than half the contemporary photos) it's the M-36 fabirc sling as found on the Garand.  This has a spring steel clip at the rear swivel, and a loop through the front held by metal clamp.  Just an item for your consideration, a way to make your figure unique among the many VLS ones out there.

That Mitchell Pattern on the fabic helmet cover will likely test your patience, too:

Hello Cap'n!

Thanks a lot for your kind words, and for more grat reference shots!

I think I can pull off the muzzle of that M79 by drilling it out some, and then I will put a "false edge" on the inside that will make the walls look thin without weakening them too much.

Yeah, I think a sling is a good idea here and I'll be going with it. Would a sling like the one in the photo you posted be correct, or is it too modern?

I think I can hack that mitchell pattern - I made some of them in 1:35 before:

Or these:

I'll have to make them a little more detailed in 1:16, but that should be doable. IMO the key to it is looking at your reference as often as you can...

Thanks again and have a nice day

Paweł

Pawel

Would a sling like the one in the photo you posted be correct, or is it too modern?

Yes, that's the correct pattern.  The color, as I see it on my monitor is a tad "khaki" and the contemporary oned were more a medium green.  Said green not being a sage geen nor the OG107 of uniforms.  Best match, to my mind, would be the "middle" green in the Michell pattern.

One thing about this time period, this was across the time where US Army changed all its leather from russet brown to black.  So, there were a number of 1911 pistol holsters that were tanned russet and black over-dyed (sometimes with PX-bought Kiwi dye).  Which a person might render by using brown-black wash over russet.  Because the final effect was a bit glossy, that suggests an oil wash.  The edges, though wear, would then to highlight as a raw leather.

Note, those hosters did not (generally) have a raised "circle US" but an embossed one.  The raised patter is a bit of a "red flag" for being a reproduction among collectors.

Your pick as to whether the canteen is made of: Aluminum, stainless steel, or OD plastic.  The former two have a black bakelite cap, the latter a matching OD plastic cap.

All of which is pretty invisible in the carrying pouch.

Hello Cap'n!

Thanks a lot for more of the great info.

Funny thing, in models (1:35 and 1:16) I've only seen the "circle US" on pistol holsters as raised, seeing the real thing embossed I would have said "something's wrong here!". The thing is, I don't know if I can do anything about it... One thing that I can think of would be to sand it off and replace with black decal - and I don't know if this would be better...

I've got good news, too - I've finally put some paint on!

I started painting flesh - first I put on primer (Tamiya grey from a spray can) and two layers of Humbrol 63. I let that dry really well, then I put on some was made out of diluted Humbrol 113 (dark boxcar brown):

I let that was dry a little, but not all the way down, and then I drybrushed on some pink made by mixing Humbrol 34 white with remains of that brown wash. That gave some nice shading:

I let this dry really well and started painting the details - bracelet, watch, teeth, lips eyes and so on. I used my daughter's crayons to paint the hair:

Next thing will be the helmet - with all that stuff under the universal strap it is kinda small model itself.

Thanks for looking and have a nice day!

Paweł

Nice work, and good source of info you've got there. The Admiral must have a BIG storage roo.

I'm no figure painter, but I do draw icons and do some art painting.

Not related to your work, but one way to minimize any staring effect is to either eliminate the white on one side of the iris (looking sideways) or give it a little yellow, just to throw off the symetry a little.

Bill