Finding a Carcano - cheap

Actually, there were two posters that expressed their OPINION that the dio was in poor taste. They have that right on a public forum, no?

Ian asked why it was offensive since he didn't understand why it was in bad taste, and said that was probably due to his youth.

Manstein AGREED with him, but also stated that AJ and James were allowed their opinion. He also stated his initial suspicion about "controversial" posts (Interesting diorama of the Kennedy assassination). BUT stated that many dios HAD been made. That went back and forth for a bit.

You made a joke about every year counting.

Agentg made a joke about not buying green bananas.

Telsono posted about the Italian small arms set that may be difficult to find (good for Mike!).

THEN jtbark roared in with his assumption that we were solvent sniffers and childish.

He lost any sympathy with those comments, and that's when I made my first post in this thread. For the record, I don't care what he models, as long as he models good behavior. The lack of respect cuts both ways.

I didn't agree with AJ or James, but his attitude about "you people" ticked me right off.

IYAAYAS, You and I have knocked heads before, and yet manage not to resort to name calling. Heck, we even AGREE with each other sometimes! Somehow we've always managed to keep things civil. Probably because deep down inside neither of us are nasty people.

All I ask of any member of this forum is to do the same thing we did.

CDNTanker25 wrote:

Armour_freek wrote: Seriously guys.... We dont know his reasons for wanting to build this Dio. Maybe its a school assignment and he wants to build a dio to go with his paper.. Try not to think the worst case scenario. While the JKF assasination was a terrible part of history you must remember all of the horrible things that happened in WW2, yet WW2 is the most modeled subject. Dont take things so serious, afterall building models is what we love and enjoy. You must respect the fact some of us dont build tigers and panthers and wish to model other subjects of our history.   Dave A good point, however it's flawed!  Would you model a scene of a concentration camp?  Heck, why not a scene with some Jews being marched into the showers and being shaved?!?  The fact that you're missing here is that while we model history, they are scenes in history that are comparable to those found in our reference book.  The reality of war is there, however the Concentration camps were not a reality of war, they were a machination of a corrupt society!

Have you ever been to a museum that displays exhibits on the Holocaust?  Do you avoid the exhibit because of what it portrays?  Do you skip the chapter in the history books that discusses war crimes.  I think not....

The holocaust is a period in time that must never be forgotten, thus never repeated.  If modeling a tasteful tribute to the struggles those people went through helps to remember (and thus never repeat) this period of time, then yes, by all means, a tasteful model is in order.  Much like an exhibit in a museum is in order.

If a tasteful tribute type model of the book depository helps us remember (thus never repeat) the horrible circumstances of that day then I don't see any argument against it.

I think the argument here has turned away from the subject matter, and towards the lack of respect that was provided this individual on his first post.  If you guys read back through from the beginning you'll see that you were really harsh from the outset. 

Don't be so quick to pre-judge

One of the big differences is this was a murder, plain and simple, not a sniper taking out an enemy at a thousand yards, just plain murder of the president.

ajlafleche- 

I want to thank you for making an attempt to explain the problem with the assassination as a diorama. The problems I see with your arguement are many.  First, many believe the assassination to be more than "a murder, plain and simple."  Forty plus years after the fact and it is still open to heated debate and many books discussing exactly what happened.   Not what I would call a plain and simple murder.  Second, as I stated elsewhere war is not clean and simple; WWII was started with one of the worst crimes one country can commit against another, invasion and occupationof its sovereign territory.  Germany and Japan killed thousands of civilians, displaced many more, pillaged national treasures, industry and resources.  How are you avoiding this in your modelling of war?  Thirdly, the death of a president is never plain and simple murder.  Lastly, you have done nothing to explain why plain and simple murder is not to be modelled.  (I do realize that blood, especially excessive blood and gore are not pleasant for some but what would be wrong with simply depicting the alleged sniper's nest?  His route of escape?  Please make an explanation at length because all you are doing at this point is repeating what others have said with different words.

Thanks

It gets deeper and deeper as we go along.  The discussion will now be about what rules YOU ALL have for what is appropriate in modelling.  This is your way of telling me what I can model and what I can bring to this forum.  Bravo...or should I say Brava!  I'm sure you will cook up any excuse that sounds sightly believeable.  The plain fact is that what one models is a personal choice and if you don't agree with it you can simply pass by.  If you are truly offended you can always PM an individual...RIGHT.  Isn't that the acceptable method?  No, you all labled my subject in bad taste and tied up the post discussion.

A good point, however it's flawed!  Would you model a scene of a concentration camp?  Heck, why not a scene with some Jews being marched into the showers and being shaved?!? 

Does anyone need to have the differenece between genocide and homocide explained?  Further, does anyone understand that a modelling diorama can fit any of many purposes?  Does anyone need it explained that the rules you want to impose on posting and on dioramas are your rules and should apply to your work?  

The fact that you're missing here is that while we model history, they are scenes in history that are comparable to those found in our reference book.  The reality of war is there, however the Concentration camps were not a reality of war, they were a machination of a corrupt society! 

Where does this come from?  You feel the freedom to twist around the rules to fit the attacks you've already made.  Should I point out that WWII was started with the Axis invasions of sovereign nations, a crime at the outset.  Civilians by the millions were killed and displaced, countries pillaged of industry and resources.  Do you limit your modelling to the Allies?  Do you only model the Axis soldiers surrendering?  It really doesn't matter, the rules you make are ridiculous.

There has to be some decorum in modelling with respect to others regards for what's respectable. 

Perhaps you would like to explain (hopefully in better terms than the above sentence) what is not respectable about a diorama of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.  Please go in to detail.  I promise that if you make a good arguement I will apologize completely for my conduct. 

it's his his overall lack of tact and respect for others. 

I'm wondering why you don't see the lack of tact and respect for me.  I see my horrendous name calling as a response to your disrespect.  

  His wording and such in his first post alerted me to the fact he was going to be an issue!  I must say though that people are getting really heated. 

This is great.  Please tell me O' Insightful One, what was your indicator (the reality is that this is another attempt to justify your actions from the outset?)  Are things really getting heated?  Another sign that it is time to turn off the computer.

Hey, Trollman.  Doesn't using that word make you feel just a little adolescent? 

I'd really like one of you to make a good, coherent arguement for why a depository diorama is in bad taste.  Please.

Armour_freek wrote:

Seriously guys.... We dont know his reasons for wanting to build this Dio. Maybe its a school assignment and he wants to build a dio to go with his paper.. Try not to think the worst case scenario. While the JKF assasination was a terrible part of history you must remember all of the horrible things that happened in WW2, yet WW2 is the most modeled subject. Dont take things so serious, afterall building models is what we love and enjoy. You must respect the fact some of us dont build tigers and panthers and wish to model other subjects of our history.   Dave

A good point, however it's flawed!  Would you model a scene of a concentration camp?  Heck, why not a scene with some Jews being marched into the showers and being shaved?!?  The fact that you're missing here is that while we model history, they are scenes in history that are comparable to those found in our reference book.  The reality of war is there, however the Concentration camps were not a reality of war, they were a machination of a corrupt society! 

There has to be some decorum in modelling with respect to others regards for what's respectable.  It's kinda like farting in public... you might think it's ok, but do the others around you think so?!?  I doubt it, unless they're where I'm from LOL j/k. 

Bill put it best really, it isn't what he wants to model at this point, it's his overall lack of tact and respect for others.  Hurling insults really should have been expected from this person right from the first message though!  His wording and such in his first post alerted me to the fact he was going to be an issue!  I must say though that people are getting really heated.  He's loving this to death I'm sure, so why humour him?!?!

Armour_freek wrote:

While the JKF assasination was a terrible part of history you must remember all of the horrible things that happened in WW2, yet WW2 is the most modeled subject.

One of the big differences is this was a murder, plain and simple, not a sniper taking out an enemy at a thousand yards, just plain murder of the president. That's why my comment on bad taste. Yes, taste is subjective. But he put his request out here for the world to see and he got reactions. Where things got dicey was the insulting tone of his responses.  And if one were modeling a Gestapo officer tossing a baby into an oven, that would be modeling history, too, but would it be in good taste? Would modeling the My Lai massacre be in good taste? Malmedy?

As I said before, the archives have the information. We're modleing for fun.

Seriously guys.... We dont know his reasons for wanting to build this Dio. Maybe its a school assignment and he wants to build a dio to go with his paper.. Try not to think the worst case scenario. While the JKF assasination was a terrible part of history you must remember all of the horrible things that happened in WW2, yet WW2 is the most modeled subject. Dont take things so serious, afterall building models is what we love and enjoy. You must respect the fact some of us dont build tigers and panthers and wish to model other subjects of our history.

Dave

I refuse to take sides on this one. It's just not that important to me. If the guy wants to build dio of the Pope in a bordello I personally don't really care--my point was just that I think it was wrong to criticize the guy's idea for a dio when we didn't really know his motivations. It's not like he stated it to be deliberately provocative or tasteless. It's alll a matter of taste, and in art...has anyone ever been to the Gugenheim Museum in Spain near Guernica? A million ort so ripped-up pieces of corrugated cardboard stapled and glue to another flat piece about 45' by 60' (yes, that's feet!)...I found THAT to be more offensive than any dio idea! Especially when I paid to see it!

Anyway, I'm outta here...got a Brummbar to finish! 

Somebody failed English class, I caught about 70,000,000 typos up there Who's the solvent sniffer now?

Now. What Bill said...I must be deliberately concentrating and inhaling solvents...

Gee sorry John. I must apologize. You see I had been abusing solvents that day...

I said it before, and this is for the last time. I'm done with you. You are a troll.

bgrigg, let's look at what you have to say, as usual it is priceless.

By his second post he was attacking people for voicing their opinion.

My post was immediately met with condemnation, suspicion, and a few individuals attempting to impose their "rules" of posting on me. This is more than "voicing their opinion."  Nothing friendly from them, nothing that I would call civil. 

Instead of justs ignoring those FEW posts he launched an attack:

Those "few posts" became the discussion with only one person breaking through with a source.

At that point I entered the fray. All I attempted to do was give him a lesson in netiquette, but he chose to ignore that and counter-attacked with more ad hominem attacks. 

Yes, how friendly you were, wondering how much difficulty I would have with a blood splattered pill box hat.  Yes, your lesson was very civil indeed. 

 He had a total of four posts and chose to make enemies instead of friends.

The friends I would take away from this experience have shown their support here and in e-mails.  If I had a chance to have you as a friend and missed it I'll just have to cry in my soup over that tremendous loss.  

One of the definitions of a forum troll is to start a controversial post, and then fan the flames.

Controversial?  That is a joke.  There is nothing more controversial about a diorama of the sixth floor of the TSBD than 95% of the modelling discussed here.  You want to consider it controversial to justify your conduct...no dice.  By the way, people that use terms like "forum troll" need help.

 Some of us have been on these forums for quite a while,...

Wait, your kidding.  I never would have guessed.

 ...and have seen this behavior before. It is not to be tolerated.

Thank God FSM has you to decide what conduct is to be tolerated and what should be condemned from the outset.  You go  

 I notice he hasn't posted any others. I'll take that as a good sign.

I think I'll just laugh to myself at this point.  Thanks for that Bill.

The gang mentality found with forum regulars like you all is, as I've said before, is sad and humorous.  You refuse to see that there was nothing controversial about my post and certainly nothing improper.  You see nothing wrong with any of your conduct, just mine.  You apply rules to me that you don't follow.  The idea that I might be another poster using a new screen name is so neurotic, drenched in paranoid delusions, I just wants to dig up Sigmund and talk it over with him.  He'd love it.  Psychological disorders of the internet, a new schoolof psychoanalytic endeavor.  Really, when you get to that point wouldn't unplugging the computer for a few months be a good idea.  Volunteer work?  A evening class?  Talk to the family.  Really, kiddies, the "This is my playground" attitude should be behind you.

It's been fun.  Any one else?

John

ben1227 wrote:

Bgrigg wrote:  I'm done with you. Good Day! Bill    Apparently you aren't done yet! Just playing...but Doog has a point, models are more important than arguing with this guy.

LOL I'm done with jtbark. Just getting started with Doog!

Bgrigg wrote:

I'm done with you. Good Day! Bill

Apparently you aren't done yet! Just playing...but Doog has a point, models are more important than arguing with this guy.

the doog wrote:

Guys, I just got around to checking this post--the Title meant nothing to me, but I checked it out anyway--and all I have to say is, please, whatever you've got on the bench is sorely needing your attentions far more than continuing this group rant! A lot of you are much respected and admired and friends to me (at least in my book you are!),  but honestly, let the guy build what he wants, whether it be gory, sacriligious, profane, or in poor taste. We're not giving out awards here...it might be his "pet" obsession, and sometimes having the 3D-perspective of an area can spur ideas and provide additional perspectives on theories or details of a crime. Please, lets just give the poor guy a break?!

Doog,

In a word? No. In no sense is he a "poor guy". At best he was confrontational, and at worst he's a troll.

By his second post he was attacking people for voicing their opinion. At that time only two people had actually expressed any negative opinion at all, and some supported his choice in dioramas. At that point I actually felt sorry for him (as you do now) and was going to post in support but he beat me to the punch. Instead of justs ignoring those FEW posts he launched an attack:

jtbark wrote:

What is wrong with you people?  Have you been using solvents without ventilation?  Is this your only outlet?  You perceptions of this posting are sad and humorous at the same time.

jtbark wrote:

The words I would like to use towards those looking to pass childish judgement on what I choose to model would not be acceptable here.  Keep some perspective; your thinking is not clear.

At that point I entered the fray. All I attempted to do was give him a lesson in netiquette, but he chose to ignore that and counter-attacked with more ad hominem attacks. 

He had a total of four posts and chose to make enemies instead of friends. One of the definitions of a forum troll is to start a controversial post, and then fan the flames. Some of us have been on these forums for quite a while, and have seen this behavior before. It is not to be tolerated. I notice he hasn't posted any others. I'll take that as a good sign.

Cheers,

Bill

Guys, I just got around to checking this post--the Title meant nothing to me, but I checked it out anyway--and all I have to say is, please, whatever you've got on the bench is sorely needing your attentions far more than continuing this group rant!

A lot of you are much respected and admired and friends to me (at least in my book you are!),  but honestly, let the guy build what he wants, whether it be gory, sacriligious, profane, or in poor taste. We're not giving out awards here...it might be his "pet" obsession, and sometimes having the 3D-perspective of an area can spur ideas and provide additional perspectives on theories or details of a crime.

Please, lets just give the poor guy a break?!

bondoman wrote:

And, jt the somewhat humorous aspect of this is that we pretty much all disagree with each other all the time about all kinds of stuff, but don't resort to insults. This has been a rare unifying experience.

 LOL Very True!  Very true indeed!  Maybe some good will come of this...you mean  we can do more than debate what the best or worst airplane, tank, car, ship, etc. is??  Oh, that is other than give friendly criticism, much needed help/advice, best wishes for those not feeling 100%, send each other items that dang old carpet monster waylaid, and in general make new friends??? Oh my...

Ben,

Good advice, but note that you have (as of NOW) 365 posts, and not once has it resorted to name calling. And I should know, as I've probably been involved in a majority of them. I've got a few more posts than that (), and it's been rare that anything I've said or posted has resorted in name calling. When it has a quick PM has usually sorted it out and a new friend is made.

jtbark was tarring the forum members with a wide brush on his second post. Nice entrance. I actually felt bad for him while reading through the first few posts, and was going to come in on his defence until he started making unfounded accusations. To me, he got exactly what he asked for.

But still, good advice, and you have a nice day as well.

Wow guys, wow. I'm not taking sides, at all. He's had 4 posts, and maybe that's why he included details about the incident, not just the gun. Lay off for a while and go build...However, I will add I don't appreciate being labeled as a solvent sniffing, childish, and unstable in my thinking...May I ask how we all turn out such wonderful models and have such a knowledge of their history if we sniff solvents and act childish?

P.S. The FSM moderators will probably delete this soon.

Have a nice day!

Civility? I only chimed in when you resorted to personal attacks. Some people expressed their opinion that your idea was in poor taste, but nobody lowered their punches until you did.

May I suggest Dale Carnegie's "How To Win Friends, and Influence People" for your reading list? After all, if reading is fundemental for us solvent addled, childish and unclear thinking, comical people, you might find reading that particular book handy.

I hope you find your little gun, and enjoy building your dio. I'm done with you.

Good Day!

Bill 

jtbark wrote:

You all are comical.  I looked back at my initial post and the responses I reacted to.  Two told me it was in bad taste, another questioned my authenticity,and another still told me such a diorama was not necessary/useful.  Others chimed in to support me and and Mike T. offered a source for the rifle.  Obviously I have responded to the negative responders and the discussion that insued from their posts.  Thisis not welcoming to a newcomer and does not approach civility.  You all don't believe you could possibly be wrong so you will, I'm sure, tell me how civil you were. Interstingly I'm comparing the responses I get from you all, one of you says I should have given no detail and just requested a source for the rifle, others say I should have given more detail, my initial post was too short.  Perhaps you guys should fight this out. No, I don't need a real Carcano, already bought one years ago.  No, the ammo is not that hard to find,its made by American manufacturers still.  I'm curious how this person knows Oswald bought a Carcano because it was cheap.  Oswald denied owning a rifle, I can't see him giving that information to anyone. You all seem to have great excuses for your conduct and find it real easy to attack my conduct as though it were attrocious and you without sin.  The reality, as I see it, you are all a gang feeling secure in your numbers, unwilling to admit the truth.

You all are comical.  I looked back at my initial post and the responses I reacted to.  Two told me it was in bad taste, another questioned my authenticity,and another still told me such a diorama was not necessary/useful.  Others chimed in to support me and and Mike T. offered a source for the rifle.  Obviously I have responded to the negative responders and the discussion that insued from their posts.  Thisis not welcoming to a newcomer and does not approach civility.  You all don't believe you could possibly be wrong so you will, I'm sure, tell me how civil you were.

Interstingly I'm comparing the responses I get from you all, one of you says I should have given no detail and just requested a source for the rifle, others say I should have given more detail, my initial post was too short.  Perhaps you guys should fight this out.

No, I don't need a real Carcano, already bought one years ago.  No, the ammo is not that hard to find,its made by American manufacturers still.  I'm curious how this person knows Oswald bought a Carcano because it was cheap.  Oswald denied owning a rifle, I can't see him giving that information to anyone.

You all seem to have great excuses for your conduct and find it real easy to attack my conduct as though it were attrocious and you without sin.  The reality, as I see it, you are all a gang feeling secure in your numbers, unwilling to admit the truth. 

jtbark wrote:

Wow, what a crowd.  It just gets worse.  No, you just get more abrassive. Mainstein says I should have articulated my reasoning initially and I'm wondering why that matters. Because context sometimes comes into play when exchanging ideas and giving modeling advice. I simply want to do a diorama and want to be authentic and find the correct weapon.  This is unusual for a first post? Yes, it is unusual. I can't imagine why  According to him I should PM...then why didn't all you PM me with your objections rather than ranting on the open forum? Because you started getting personal, not I. Bgrigg reminds me that the JFK assassination is a painful memory.  Thank you for sharing that, I lived through it too and my pain does not stop me from modelling it. Glad the theraphy helped you in that area.  I'm guessing WWII was painful for millions of people but we seem to have no problem modelling that.  How many people died in WWII?  By the way Bgrigg, if you bothered to read my post I said I was going to model the sixth floor of the book depository...was there a woman in a pillbox hat up there too? I don't know; maybe...you did say a lot of things were unclear as to what happened on the sixth floor. Maybe you can write a book after you build the dio. Reading is fundamental.  I'm also told I should confine my self expression in modelling to myself and I'm trying to remember where I wrote that my intention was anything but a model for myself. No, just confine your insults and personal attacks to yourself. bondman suggests that I establish a criteria for a model, would I enter it in a contest or put it in public.  Not my intention but I don't see why a man aiming a rifle out a window would be gross, in bad taste or painful, or more so than a burned out tank which certainly represents 3-4 men that died a horrible death. ogrejohn points out that I am attempting to suppress YOUR expression and I would reply that I am protesting attempts to censor me.  Go right ahead and express yourselves, you are all doing such a wonderful job of it.  Again a suggestion to PM from someone that obviously doesn't know how to do that themself. I would PM anyone I felt that I had the need to insult. But since you seem to enjoy open forum rant I am happy to oblige. CDNTanker thinks I object because no one likes my idea.  Dang, so far it seems no one read my posting accurately anyway, expectations along those lines would be silly.  Tanker, I wasn't looking for people to agree with me, read again, I was looking for a source of a 6.5mm Carcano 91/38.  I was not going to build a gruesome diorama, perhaps you'd like to reread the post. I WANT TO BUILD A DIORAMA OF THE SIXTH FLOOR OF THE TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY. I don't care if it is painful for anyone.  I don't care if someone mistakenly thinks it is gruesome.    I don't care if you like or agree with my modelling preferences. I don't care to fit anyone's guidelines of first time posting, or needs for explanation.  I don't care to PM anyone.  I simply want a good source for the rifle. Your lack of caring about a lot of things shows. Are we clear? A lot of things are clear.

Wow, what a crowd.  It just gets worse.  Mainstein says I should have articulated my reasoning initially and I'm wondering why that matters.  I simply want to do a diorama and want to be authentic and find the correct weapon.  This is unusual for a first post?  I can't imagine why  According to him I should PM...then why didn't all you PM me with your objections rather than ranting on the open forum?

Bgrigg reminds me that the JFK assassination is a painful memory.  Thank you for sharing that, I lived through it too and my pain does not stop me from modelling it.  I'm guessing WWII was painful for millions of people but we seem tohave no problem modelling that.  How many people died in WWII?  By the way Bgrigg, if you bothered to read my post I said I was going to model the sixth floor of the book depository...was there a woman in a pillbox hat up there too? Reading is fundamental.  I'm also told I should confine my self expression in modelling to myself and I'm trying to remember where I wrote that my intention was anything but a model for myself.

bondman suggests that I establish a criteria for a model, would I enter it in a contest or put it in public.  Not my intention but I don't see why a man aiming a rifle out a window would be gross, in bad taste or painful, or more so than a burned out tank which certainly represents 3-4 men that died a horrible death.

ogrejohn points out that I am attempting to suppress YOUR expression and I would reply that I am protesting attempts to censor me.  Go right ahead and express yourselves, you are all doing such a wonderful job of it.  Again a suggestion to PM from someone that obviously doesn't know how to do that themself.

CDNTanker thinks I object because no one likes my idea.  Dang, so far it seems no one read my posting accurately anyway, expectations along those lines would be silly.  Tanker, I wasn't looking for people to agree with me, read again, I was looking for a source of a 6.5mm Carcano 91/38.  I was not going to build a gruesome diorama, perhaps you'd like to reread the post.

I WANT TO BUILD A DIORAMA OF THE SIXTH FLOOR OF THE TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY.

I don't care if it is painful for anyone.  I don't care if someone mistakenly thinks it is gruesome.    I don't care if you like or agree with my modelling preferences. I don't care to fit anyone's guidelines of first time posting, or needs for explanation.  I don't care to PM anyone.  I simply want a good source for the rifle.

Are we clear?

I simply want a good source for the rifle.

I've got the gun ad in my scrap book. PM me and I'll send you a pdf of it. I think LHO paid less than $ 20 for it, and would imagine you could get it cheaper. But the ammo is probably rare by now. But ask me, and I'm sure I know a source. Remember he also had a pistol which he used to kill an innocent policeman.

I hope that you get the message, which is that either of two things have been responded to:

1) You are just out to provoke people. In which case, go away.

2) You want to build this diorama. Which is fine, and in particular if you have a customer. But these forums are set up for conversation, response and gathering information. I'd say that scanning this thread every response has been at least civil, if in some cases emotional (no surprise), and you have been by far the most insulting, which leads me back to conclusion (1).

Bill

Crystal!

We don't care either.

You could easily have said "I'm looking for a source of a Carcano carbine model 91/38" and avoided a whole pile of crap.

Frankly I don't care what you build. I only mentioned that JFK's murder was a touchy subject. I'm not much on tanks with dead people either. I model mostly cars. 

You've come along and started making accusations, and THAT'S what attracted my attention. 

Good night.